PDA

View Full Version : Flash Sync speed



faisal
04-14-2009, 09:36 AM
So I'm one day away from owning a phottix flash trigger. Found a retailer letting it go for a cheap price...which is good enough for me. Anyway I saw this video http://www.viddler.com/explore/ziser/videos/56/20/ where it explained how the sync speed effects the flash and how a faster shutter speed results in the light fall towards the lower end of the picture..... But the same does not happen when the flash is mounted on the camera...i.e the light fall is equal at all corners as I increase the shutter speed....why is that?? Can I possibly have the same effect with the external flash??

Thanks

cdifoto
04-14-2009, 09:38 AM
If you don't get a black bar across the bottom of your images with the Speedlite attached, it's probably shooting in High Speed Sync mode. High Speed Sync is only available with E-TTL hot shoe flashes that support it. It's not available on manual flashes.

You know you're in High Speed Sync when there's a little H with a lightning bold next to it on your flash LCD.

faisal
04-14-2009, 09:46 AM
I know what high speed sync is...that's the only mode that lets me shoot with a SS faster than 1/200...
E-TTL mode is auto mode if I'm right??? or have I got the concepts wrong...

I was shooting in manual mode with the high speed sync mode....As I would want to use the flash as fill flash outdoors, a SS of 1/200 is useless as I need a minimum of at least 1/500 at f5.6 to get proper exposed shots without a blown out background

adam75south
04-14-2009, 11:30 AM
true dat faisal. you have to shoot around f/11 or get an ND filter.

cdifoto
04-14-2009, 11:50 AM
I know what high speed sync is...that's the only mode that lets me shoot with a SS faster than 1/200...
E-TTL mode is auto mode if I'm right??? or have I got the concepts wrong...

I was shooting in manual mode with the high speed sync mode....As I would want to use the flash as fill flash outdoors, a SS of 1/200 is useless as I need a minimum of at least 1/500 at f5.6 to get proper exposed shots without a blown out background
Right. I was answering your question of WHY you don't get the black bar problem with the hot shoe flash. It's because of High Speed Sync.

You asked...

faisal
04-14-2009, 12:14 PM
true dat faisal. you have to shoot around f/11 or get an ND filter.

F11 does not do wonders if you want subject isolation...
How will an ND filter effect my flash...as in...will I be required to use more power?


Right. I was answering your question of WHY you don't get the black bar problem with the hot shoe flash. It's because of High Speed Sync.

You asked...

Maybe I sounded like a know it all dumb guy in the previous post...my bad!!

I didn't know the high speed sync had that effect and that I couldn't use it with the trigger.....though I did know what high speed sync is....

Is E-TTL applicable for manual mode also???

cdifoto
04-14-2009, 12:30 PM
E-TTL is only when it says E-TTL on the flash LCD. That's not to say there aren't flashes out there that don't display E-TTL when they are indeed in E-TTL, but to keep it simple I'm just going to talk about your specific flash, the 430EX. There are way too many flashes out there with way too many feature sets to address them all.

Anyway, there are some wireless systems coming to market now that let you keep using E-TTL and I presume that means you'd also have high speed sync available as well. There are only two brands so far that I know of though, and they're relatively expensive. One is the RadioPopper and the other is new from PocketWizard called the FlexTT5 (transciever) and MiniTT1 (transmitter). RadioPopper seems to be vaporware though...I don't know of anyone who actually has a set, and yet they announced a new version of each model on their website.

faisal
04-14-2009, 01:20 PM
So when in Manual mode...and when mounted on a trigger...why isn't the high speed sync available even though it is available when the flash is mounted on the camera...any idea??

Pocket wizards(which are available here) support TTL...will that help in any way to get high speed sync??

Also...how do you shoot outdoors with a flash on a sunny day???

Btw Thanks a lot...I know I ask tooo many questions...

cdifoto
04-14-2009, 01:28 PM
So when in Manual mode...and when mounted on a trigger...why isn't the high speed sync available even though it is available when the flash is mounted on the camera...any idea??

Pocket wizards(which are available here) support TTL...will that help in any way to get high speed sync??

Also...how do you shoot outdoors with a flash on a sunny day???

Btw Thanks a lot...I know I ask tooo many questions...
I'm assuming you mean "Manual Mode" on the flash rather than "Manual Mode" on the camera.

If so, it's because Manual Mode on the flash is not E-TTL. You're only in E-TTL if you're playing around with Flash Exposure Compensation. There are only two systems that support E-TTL and it's associated goodies when off-camera...and those generic receivers aren't one of them!

The flash needs to communicate with the camera to give you E-TTL. Those generic receivers (and most others on the planet except the two I mentioned previously) are simple devices that only fire the flash...nothing more. Turn on your flash. Take a paper clip and open it up straight. Touch the bottom center pin with one end of the paper clip and the side of the foot with the other end of the paper clip. See what happens. That's what the simple triggers are doing, except only when you tell it to (by tripping the shutter on your camera) and for a split second. That's ALL they're doing. There is no intelligent communication that E-TTL and all it's goodies requires.

faisal
04-14-2009, 02:55 PM
I should have elaborated...

Note: The camera and the flash are on Manual mode...

So when the flash is mounted on the camera....high speed sync is available even though E-TTL is not active (I'm assuming manual mode is not E-TTL as it does not say show on my flash)...but when the same flash is mounted on a trigger, high speed sync is not available...that's is what I am wondering...unless as you said, the triggers only trigger the flash burst and that my flash is one of those that are in E-TTL mode at all times even when it is not displayed...am I getting this right???

So unless I have those two brands of triggers...I can't use my flash off camera in situations when I need a shutter speed of more than 1/200....that really sucks!!!

What about the Canon ST-E2....apart from the line of sight rule to be followed, is it any good??

Also we get those hot shoe cords manufactured by nissin, are they worth the hassle (apart from the limitation of having a range of about 1 meter) cause some wedding photographer who was at a recent photography event loved his Nikon cord ...??

Thanks yet again.. :)

adam75south
04-14-2009, 04:14 PM
F11 does not do wonders if you want subject isolation...
How will an ND filter effect my flash...as in...will I be required to use more power?
the light ratio between the sun and the flash will remain, you'll just be able to open up to f/5.6 if that's what you wanna use. it'll probably slow your autofocus speed some though. but if that's what you want, then i think that's the only thing you can do about it...aside from buying ettl triggers.

TheObiJuan
04-14-2009, 05:12 PM
If I'm not mistaken, you can get E-TTL, therefore high speed sync, with the off camera shoe cord.
They can be cut and extended with CAT5 cable to 20' or 30' so you can have flexibility with shooting outdoors.
This may be a cost effective alternative if you don't want the 6stop or 9 stop ND filter.

faisal
04-15-2009, 03:19 AM
the light ratio between the sun and the flash will remain, you'll just be able to open up to f/5.6 if that's what you wanna use. it'll probably slow your autofocus speed some though. but if that's what you want, then i think that's the only thing you can do about it...aside from buying ettl triggers.

I would like f2.8 honestly....but yesterday when shooting at f2.8 at the beach at 9am in the morning...my shutter speed was close to 1/2000(ISO 100) even when the sun was no where in my frame....so I'd need a 4 stop ND filter I suppose!!! :eek:

I'll look into the Canon ST-E2 I suppose then...for E-TTL...


If I'm not mistaken, you can get E-TTL, therefore high speed sync, with the off camera shoe cord.
They can be cut and extended with CAT5 cable to 20' or 30' so you can have flexibility with shooting outdoors.
This may be a cost effective alternative if you don't want the 6stop or 9 stop ND filter.

Hmm...that's a good idea...a hot shoe cable from Nissin is for about $69...which isn't such a bad price....thanks!!!

adam75south
04-15-2009, 08:09 AM
I would like f2.8 honestly....but yesterday when shooting at f2.8 at the beach at 9am in the morning...my shutter speed was close to 1/2000(ISO 100) even when the sun was no where in my frame....so I'd need a 4 stop ND filter I suppose!!! :eek:

I'll look into the Canon ST-E2 I suppose then...for E-TTL...



Hmm...that's a good idea...a hot shoe cable from Nissin is for about $69...which isn't such a bad price....thanks!!!

hey that is a good idea, i didn't know you could extend them with cat 5. i might just try that, maybe with some sports shooting or something.

4 stop filter, wow, that would be tough, i'd imagine you'd have to get your focus before you add the filter...especially if the subject is backlit. then again, i really don't know what i'm talking about since i've never used one.

faisal
04-15-2009, 08:33 AM
4 stop filter, wow, that would be tough, i'd imagine you'd have to get your focus before you add the filter...especially if the subject is backlit. then again, i really don't know what i'm talking about since i've never used one.

The other day when I was shooting a couple on the beach with the 85mm at f2.8 using the AV mode, my SS was blinking at 1/4000, i.e it was still too slow and my shots were over exposed...at least the background was...and we're still in April...can't image what will happen in July... :(

Anyway I got the phottix triggers that I might try out for now...best part is not many people know these exist so I can sell them off for the same price I bought it for...:)

lukeap69
04-16-2009, 12:15 AM
Faisal

IMO those phottix triggers are pain to use. Good luck with them.

Regarding ST-E2, they are almost the same price as another flash. Suggest you get another flash that can act as a firing or non-firing commander (580EX, Metz 58-AF, or Sigma xxx - forgot the model no.)

faisal
04-16-2009, 02:46 AM
Faisal

IMO those phottix triggers are pain to use. Good luck with them.

Regarding ST-E2, they are almost the same price as another flash. Suggest you get another flash that can act as a firing or non-firing commander (580EX, Metz 58-AF, or Sigma xxx - forgot the model no.)

for the price I got them for...I don't mind them honestly...

The ST-E2 is for AED800....which is too high...so I agree...I just might get another flash....thanks!!!

lukeap69
04-16-2009, 04:14 AM
As far as I remember Metz 58-AF for Canon is around 1435 dirhams in Grand Store. If you can find one in Bur Dubai, it might be a lot cheaper. Please note that most stores on shopping centres sell 580EX II for 2,000 dirhams or more where you can get it for arounf 1,450 dirhams in Bur Dubai.

faisal
04-16-2009, 04:24 AM
I'm getting it for 1700 in City Centre...
where can i get it fro 1450???

Does the Metz result it me losing e-ttl???

michaelb
04-16-2009, 06:49 AM
So unless I have those two brands of triggers...I can't use my flash off camera in situations when I need a shutter speed of more than 1/200....that really sucks!!!



You might find this interesting faisal....
http://www.viddler.com/explore/ziser/videos/56/

Mark_48
04-16-2009, 08:15 AM
You might find this interesting faisal....
http://www.viddler.com/explore/ziser/videos/56/
Pretty good tutorial. Just have to remember not to use a portrait orientation of the camera.
I can only imagine what wedding guests might say about the pro photographer holding a camera upside down :eek:

adam75south
04-16-2009, 08:40 AM
Faisal

IMO those phottix triggers are pain to use. Good luck with them.

Regarding ST-E2, they are almost the same price as another flash. Suggest you get another flash that can act as a firing or non-firing commander (580EX, Metz 58-AF, or Sigma xxx - forgot the model no.)

IMO nothing is more frustrating than trying to use canon's wireless system. i've never used the st-e2 but have used the 580ex as master to another 580ex...and if you don't have line of sight it won't fire. and it needs to be within something like 15 feet. and it really doesn't work well in sunlight. now i only spent a few days with this, but that's about all i could take of it.

gilly
04-16-2009, 09:04 AM
Faisal

IMO those phottix triggers are pain to use. Good luck with them.




I've had like 3 misfires since I've had them. Certainly no complaints here!

faisal
04-16-2009, 09:07 AM
You might find this interesting faisal....
http://www.viddler.com/explore/ziser/videos/56/

I saw that video and have already tried it to not much success... :o


Pretty good tutorial. Just have to remember not to use a portrait orientation of the camera.
I can only imagine what wedding guests might say about the pro photographer holding a camera upside down :eek:

Holding the camera upside down is fun...especially when you see the reaction of the people around you... ;)


IMO nothing is more frustrating than trying to use canon's wireless system. i've never used the st-e2 but have used the 580ex as master to another 580ex...and if you don't have line of sight it won't fire. and it needs to be within something like 15 feet. and it really doesn't work well in sunlight. now i only spent a few days with this, but that's about all i could take of it.

If I don't use the Canon wireless system, I have no hope to be able to use flash when requiring to shoot over a SS of 1/200....unless I get those expensive triggers...maybe I'll borrow someones 580EX II to see how it performs especially to see if it suffers in sunlight than it surely is of no use here in the middle east!!!

adam75south
04-16-2009, 10:51 AM
If I don't use the Canon wireless system, I have no hope to be able to use flash when requiring to shoot over a SS of 1/200....unless I get those expensive triggers...maybe I'll borrow someones 580EX II to see how it performs especially to see if it suffers in sunlight than it surely is of no use here in the middle east!!!
if lower f/stops is what you want, don't shoot in the middle of the sun. put the subject in shade or wait until the sun is starting to go down.

at least until you find a way that you can use fp mode. i think the off camera cord would be the most reliable. hopefully soon someone will come out with a cheaper ettl trigger. i really hope the alien bee people are reading this.

oh, and don't forget reflectors. those are a lot more useful than you'd think.

faisal
04-16-2009, 11:39 AM
if lower f/stops is what you want, don't shoot in the middle of the sun. put the subject in shade or wait until the sun is starting to go down.

at least until you find a way that you can use fp mode. i think the off camera cord would be the most reliable. hopefully soon someone will come out with a cheaper ettl trigger. i really hope the alien bee people are reading this.

oh, and don't forget reflectors. those are a lot more useful than you'd think.

I try shooting at sunrise cause that's when we have the least amount of traffic, human and cars while having the best weather....
I'll look into how I can extend a off camera cord...will need to ask someone who knows his way around wires to do it for me...till then I'll try these phottix triggers....
I've looked into reflectors...I can get a set of 5 (diffuser, golden, white, silver and I think black) for about $50...is that a fair price...??? These are the ones without a handle!!!

michaelb
04-16-2009, 06:32 PM
I try shooting at sunrise cause that's when we have the least amount of traffic, human and cars while having the best weather....
..

Yea, sunrise/sunset would be much better. Check out the 5th post on this page (and the second to last)...(Phamster)....

Just a 580EX, some cheap triggers and a softbox...(he explains his set-up on the following page)...

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=412392&page=31

lukeap69
04-19-2009, 12:23 AM
I'm getting it for 1700 in City Centre...
where can i get it fro 1450???

Does the Metz result it me losing e-ttl???

Some of my friends got it for 1400 AED, some 1490 AED in Bur Dubai, Perfecta and other shops. It is a bit pricey in City Centre.

The Metz flash I've mentioned above has the E-TTL capabilities of Canon.

faisal
04-19-2009, 12:30 AM
Yea, sunrise/sunset would be much better. Check out the 5th post on this page (and the second to last)...(Phamster)....

Just a 580EX, some cheap triggers and a softbox...(he explains his set-up on the following page)...

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=412392&page=31

Thanks for the link...but if you might notice, there are clouds in the sky...over here we have bright sunlight...that's where the problem lies...I can possibly shoot tilll about about 10minutes after sunrise...cause after that if using f2.8, I end up reaching SS of about 1/1000....


Some of my friends got it for 1400 AED, some 1490 AED in Bur Dubai, Perfecta and other shops. It is a bit pricey in City Centre.

The Metz flash I've mentioned above has the E-TTL capabilities of Canon.

Unfortunately I am horrible at bargaining....hmm...Did they buy it with or without warranty???

I'll check out the Metz flash next time I'm out anywhere near Grand stores...

lukeap69
04-19-2009, 06:00 AM
Amazing Faisal, most of the guys I know here in Dubai are better in bargaining than me. :)

I believe they have (store) warranty.

faisal
04-19-2009, 06:06 AM
Amazing Faisal, most of the guys I know here in Dubai are better in bargaining than me. :)

I believe they have (store) warranty.

whats amazing???
and I suck at bargaining... seriously...I can't get the seller to reduce prices more than 2%...

Store warranty....hmm...will check out perfecta!!!

TheObiJuan
04-19-2009, 08:43 AM
I'm trying to get someone to extend me an off shoe cord to about 10ft, if you want one, I'll mail you one too.
I'd prefer if they'd extend it using the same curled up wire, that'd be neat.

I just found this site:
http://www.moo.co.za/OffShoeCord/Flash_Cable_Mod.htm

It looks simple enough to do myself if I still worked at my old job, they had everything there to do it! DOH!

faisal
04-19-2009, 09:28 AM
I'm trying to get someone to extend me an off shoe cord to about 10ft, if you want one, I'll mail you one too.
I'd prefer if they'd extend it using the same curled up wire, that'd be neat.

I just found this site:
http://www.moo.co.za/OffShoeCord/Flash_Cable_Mod.htm

It looks simple enough to do myself if I still worked at my old job, they had everything there to do it! DOH!

That looks simple to you... :eek:
I'd never be able to do that....ever!!!:o

Anyway...what do you want to mail me??? didn't get you!!! :confused:

TheObiJuan
04-19-2009, 09:37 PM
Mail you? Hmmm? ???
I had asked you to mail me sand, about 4oz, from a beach there.
I collect it and thought you might oblige. :)

faisal
04-19-2009, 09:42 PM
Mail you? Hmmm? ???
I had asked you to mail me sand, about 4oz, from a beach there.
I collect it and thought you might oblige. :)

Oh yeah!!! you had....damn!!! I completely forgot about that...hmm....tell me how I can mail it to you and I shall...we've got about 4 different sands over from what I know...I have easy access to 2....

TheObiJuan
04-19-2009, 09:54 PM
Thanks, Faisal, I'll PM you.