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cvicisso
09-08-2007, 01:14 PM
Got my D70 in the mail today (finally). Second hand, ebay, w/kit lens, yada yada yada...

OMG! I can't believe I lived without a dslr for so long!!! It's incredible. I've already shot over 200 pics (I better slow down, eh?). Instant focus, no shutter lag, incredible IQ, etc... You guys already know the deal.

Anyway, as the title of the thread says, it definitely has one nasty hot pixel that I noticed almost immediately - without doing any dark screen test shots or anything. I just happened to see it when reviewing my first batch of pics (although the 24" imac monitor probably made it a bit more noticeable). I'll try to post an example here, but after reading up on it for the last 30 or so minutes, it looks like your standard hot pixel (with the annoying trailing line associated with it). This thing definitely is not under warranty, but it seems to be in otherwise EXCELLENT condition. Besides, I've read on these forums about people noticing hot pixels in their brand-new D200's - so I guess it's not that uncommon.

What should I do? I shoot a LOT of pictures (or at least I plan to), so it's not practical for me to retouch all the photos. And I really don't want to return it (assuming the seller will even take it), plus I had to call in all my favors with 'the boss' (wife) just to get this thing, so if this falls through, I'm back to pocket cams for the next decade.

I'll see if I can post examples...

Thanks in advance.

cvicisso
09-08-2007, 01:26 PM
Ok, I had to resize for posting, but the EXIF data should be intact (date is wrong btw). You can't really see the hot pixel that well (maybe at all?) in the larger pic (because of resizing), but it's just below the left-hand 'point' under the butterfly's left wing - at the very top edge of the pink flower in the background.

The blowup shows the hot pixel much better. Also, you can see the red line that trails from the hot pixel all the way to the edge of the image. NOT cool. :( It's like this in EVERY image.

Please let me know what you think - and thanks again.

BTW - this may be because I'm so used to pocket digicams (read: total dslr newbie!), but these colors seem pretty 'flat' to me. I'm going to switch to 'vivid' and see how that works.

jcon
09-08-2007, 02:20 PM
I dont see the trailing red line, I do see the hot pixel, which doesnt seem to be bad, and if thats the only problem, you are pretty lucky. Its hard to notice, unless you are looking for it, and if it "ruins" a photo, you can remove it in PS in 2 seconds.

Colors may be flat depending on in camera settings, if RAW, you will need to PP the colors to make them "pop".

Hope this helped!

Enjoy your new toy!

cvicisso
09-08-2007, 02:30 PM
I dont see the trailing red lineThe jpg recompression may have smoothed it out a bit, but I can still clearly see the line in the second photo - even when I view it online.

I haven't downloaded/installed any Nikon software yet. If I can't remap the CCD myself (which it sounds like I can't), I'm not completely unapposed to removing the pixel via software as long as I can automate the process somehow. Is there a way to get rid of the pixel and the line via software for a batch of pictures - maybe as soon as I import them from the camera? I don't want to do it over and over for every single picture.

Thanks again.

jcon
09-08-2007, 02:34 PM
Print one of the photos and see how it looks there, if you are pixel peeping on your computer, you will see every little blemish, but usually it wont appear in a normal print.

As for batch, I am not big on batch processing, unless its resize or converting to JPEG, so I really cant answer that, although, it sounds pretty difficult to batcha certain spot on each photos.

Maybe running it through NeatImage would remove it, that you could batch.


EDIT* If you dont mind, email me the full unedited picture so I can have a look at it. jaylsworth for AOL.

fionndruinne
09-08-2007, 02:55 PM
Ah yes, I do see the trailing line. You might enable 'high ISO noise reduction', if your camera possesses it; this processes to remove hot pixels when they result from high ISO exposures, but I don't really think it works on every image, and I'm not sure whether it would work here at all.

Capture NX is the Nikon program which maps images to automatically remove dust spots... I don't know whether it works with hot pixels or not.

cvicisso
09-08-2007, 03:20 PM
EDIT* If you dont mind, email me the full unedited picture so I can have a look at it. jaylsworth for AOL.
Thanks! Email is on the way.

I've got to step out for a while (yes - bringing D70 with me :D). I'll check back here later.

Thanks again.

JerrfyLube
09-09-2007, 12:52 AM
I see the trailing red line...pretty pronounced too IMO!! Its not at all uncommon however. I had two hot pixels on my D80 after i bought it. A quick trip to Nikon under warranty and they fixed it. Not sure what they would charge out of warranty though?? The pixel wouldnt bother me too much...but that streak probably would, though its highly unlikely that it would ever show up in any prints.

coldrain
09-09-2007, 05:53 AM
You could try and contact Nikon to ask what it would cost for them to map that red pixel out.But as jcon pointed out before, only in some photos it will be noticable really, and it is very easily covered up in most photo editting programs. so do not let it spoil your experience.

Prospero
09-09-2007, 06:13 AM
I have two or three dead pixels on my D-50 with a trailing line. Most of the time I don't see them. I find that I only notice the dead pixels in dark scenes shot at ISO400 and above. Since I pretty much always shoot at ISO200 I hardly notice the problem.

As others said, it is easy to remove them, and most of the time it is hard to notice it unless you are looking at hundred percent crops. I wouldn't worry about it.

cvicisso
09-09-2007, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the advice, everyone. I don't think that the example I posted really shows how bad the problem is - it's very noticeable, and not something I can easily ignore (and still enjoy my camera to its full potential). I could probably live with the hot pixel itself, but the line that extends across about 25% of the image is simply unacceptable for me. It is visible sometimes on the 1.8" D70 LCD screen, so I don't agree that it's something that will only show up in prints. That's just me I guess.

I would like to see how much it costs to repair. Anyone have any suggestions? Google/Yellow pages didn't mention any authorized Nikon repair places in my area (Virginia Beach, VA), so my plan is to try Ritz Camera. Maybe they can ship it off if they can't do the repair themselves. Is this a bad idea?

Thanks again.

tcadwall
09-10-2007, 07:06 AM
Try to find a local (non-chain) camera shop that deals with Nikon gear. I have much better experience with them than with the Wolf / Ritz shops. Heck a simple sensor cleaning means an expensive charge and days without your camera. My local guy will do it while I wait if the owner (who does the service) is in. Now a hot pixel, he would probably have to send out, but I KNOW that he won't rob me in the process.

FWIW - the trailing line is quite obvious to me in the crop. And I think that part might show up in prints too, and it WOULD annoy the heck out of me.

On the flip-side, while I haven't had to do this myself, I would imagine that most good image editors would allow you to create a macro action that takes care of it. But first experiment with getting rid of it manually before you automate it. In other words, your solution has to repair it regardless of the colors surrounding it. Maybe a scratch repair tool, or another touch-up tool that blends without over-softening. When you have a repeatable process, then make a macro to do it. Just lookup the help in the software you are using, or do a google on how to do macros for the software you are using

cvicisso
09-11-2007, 01:02 PM
Update: The ebay seller has agreed to cover up to $300 to repair the D70 (:eek::D). He has been extremely helpful/friendly and I can't say enough about how much I like the camera (except of course for the pixel/line issue).

My new dillema is complicated (and long - sorry for the long, wandering post!) - and mostly due to my own issues. Please don't confuse MY confusion with me being a 'troll' or a fanboy (of any brand), or anything else. I just over-analyze everything and tend to think things out too far in the future to be of any real practical importance. I end up spending too much time online 'researching' purchases instead of taking pictures! :rolleyes: But hey, as Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations." At least I know mine. :D

Anyway, firstly, I don't have any clue if $300 will be enough to cover the cost of fixing the CCD, and Nikon will NOT speculate over the phone (I tried). Second, this purchase is my first step into a (hopefully) life-long dslr 'system.' The lenses I acquire will be transferred to future bodies as the camera bodies are replaced/upgraded by me (as my meager finances allow of course!).

Obviously, the D70 has some miles on it and there's no warranty. I should not expect this particular body to last as long as a new-unfired one (under warranty), so that's a consideration for me. On the other hand, I'm paying substantially less than the $1300 the D70 kit would have cost me when it first came out. There are brand new dslrs currently available that are in the same 'ballpark' as what I paid for the D70, with some additional features (plus a warranty), and of course some compromises (like the x-sync speed for example - of which nothing but the entry level Nikons comes anywhere even close for that price). There are obviously many options out there, but I'm thinking specifically of the Pentax K10D.

I won't rehash the specs on the K10D - I'm sure you are all familiar, but mainly (for me), the decision I must make between the used/in-need-of-repair D70 and a brand new K10D is influenced heavily by the K10D's warranty, weather-sealing, image stabilization on every lens, and future upgradeability (using lenses on future compatible bodies). Again - I'm just starting out from ground zero. I've had a Nikon film SLR in the past, but don't have a huge investment in lenses, and they were manual-focus anyway.

Ok, my secret, ulterior motive is to someday start making money as a 'tog. Small time: Weddings, high school sports, etc. Don't worry - I'm not unrealistically planning to quit my day job and start doing this next week or anything. :D But, I do want to start out on the right path (system), and I'm finding it hard to pull the trigger (now that I have the option of returning the D70). The K10D will get me 90% of the way there now with its prosumer features - so that's a big plus for me. But it's the top of the line as far as Pentax goes (for now) - there's nothing to aspire to (which actually could be a good thing for me!) - and the K10D's continuous frame rate and flash sync are not up to now-accepted professional or prosumer specs. If I go Nikon, I can always plan on that D300 or even full frame now.

The last thing will seem counter-intuitive, but it involves lens choices. Ironically, I find the current Pentax lens choice more to my liking. I really want to have a fast (f/2.8), fast-focusing wide-mid zoom WITH IMAGE STABILIZATION as my keep-on-the-camera-95%-of-the-time lens. Despite Nikon's wider lens assortment, they can't currently answer this requirement for me. Canon can (EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM) and Pentax can (DA* 16 - 50 mm F2.8 ED AL [IF] SDM) - WITH WEATHER-SEALING to boot.

I'm lost. What should I do??

fionndruinne
09-11-2007, 01:23 PM
You think you'll need image stabilization that much in a fast-aperture, fairly wide-angle lens? I'd put that a little lower on the list of priorities than I would for, say, a telephoto lens.

There's no doubt that the K10D offers a lot of features for a good price... but then, the D80 is being sold for only up to $150 over the K10D price... and the Sigma 18-50mm f/2.8 for Nikon is by many accounts a terrific lens, and will carry over to a D300. The D80 wouldn't give you the color noise problem that the Pentax might (although I'd be cautious with ISO 1600 on the Nikon, it's not that great for a large print).

cvicisso
09-11-2007, 02:48 PM
You think you'll need image stabilization that much in a fast-aperture, fairly wide-angle lens? I'd put that a little lower on the list of priorities than I would for, say, a telephoto lens.Hand-held, indoors with typical (read: poor) lighting? Yep. I'll take any advantage I can get. :D Even f/2.8 is sometimes pushing the envelope for usable handheld shutter speeds on a zoom, but that's as fast/large as current dslr zooms go (except for the ludicrously-expensive Olympus I guess), so...

But I do agree that it (stabilization) is of less importance on the wide end. And, it seems that the Nikon and Canon in-the-lens (optical) stabilization is superior to the sensor-shift method - especially at long focal lengths. Never-the-less, it's another arrow in the quiver and all part of the equation for me.

cvicisso
09-12-2007, 07:30 AM
After shooting another 100 or so pics with the D70 last night in really bad light (to help me decide whether or not to stick with it), I fell in love (again). It's such a great camera! It just feels 'right' to me (maybe my Nikon film slr bias?). And apart from the dot/line issue which will hopefully soon be fixed, the pictures are amazing (the metering is pure magic!). I'm sticking with Nikon and getting the D70 repaired. No more speculation about other systems (promise ;)). I just hope the repair costs less than $300 - does anyone have any ideas how much it will cost?? As stated earlier, it's not under warranty.

OBTW - after further correspondence, the seller stated that the camera must go to Nikon in order for him to compensate for the repair, so local shops and Ritz are out. That's no problem - and I actually completely understand and empathize.

Thanks for the advice and putting up with my rambling. :D Hey - am I a Nikonian now?

Rooz
09-12-2007, 07:47 AM
i'm sure had you gone with the pentax you would have been happy aswell. regardless of the system you choose. its always good to see someone happy with what they have. :)

cvicisso
09-12-2007, 08:15 AM
i'm sure had you gone with the pentax you would have been happy aswell. regardless of the system you choose. its always good to see someone happy with what they have. :)Thanks Rooz - I'm sure that you're right.

tcadwall
09-12-2007, 08:19 AM
Most of us made our Nikon choice for good reasons. I love the feel and the ease of use that the D70s gives me. I wouldn't take a free Canon of comparable featureset. - ok free might tempt me! But the convenience of the design, and the feel in my hand is worth a LOT to me. It takes great pictures, and the lens selection IMO is quite good.... I wouldn't want to be shooting a D40 because I do like the lens options and flash options that I have. I also don't like the feel of the D40, and I really don't care a lot for the feel of the D50. D70 and up, I love the feel and features.

From what I have heard, Nikon repair is very good. In fact I have heard of cameras going in for one specific problem, but getting a thourough cleaning and pro-active servicing thrown in. So, in effect, your camera could come back like a re-furbished camera. For instance, they don't want you to get your camera back and then you have a problem with the shutter. You blame them for the shutter problem, send it back, they have to fix it again, etc. So from what I have read, they often will give new life to cameras when they come in for repair. What exactly that means - I don't know. I have assumed it to mean that they often will replace the weakest wear items, even if they are 'ok' upon inspection... that type of thing.

I don't have anything to offer regarding the cost for the repair, but I would imagine that $300 would go a long way toward covering it - otherwise people would just tell them "forget it, I'll buy a new c @non".

Good luck and keep us posted.

cvicisso
10-04-2007, 12:48 PM
From what I have heard, Nikon repair is very good. In fact I have heard of cameras going in for one specific problem, but getting a thourough cleaning and pro-active servicing thrown in. So, in effect, your camera could come back like a re-furbished camera. For instance, they don't want you to get your camera back and then you have a problem with the shutter. You blame them for the shutter problem, send it back, they have to fix it again, etc. So from what I have read, they often will give new life to cameras when they come in for repair. What exactly that means - I don't know. I have assumed it to mean that they often will replace the weakest wear items, even if they are 'ok' upon inspection... that type of thing.I got my D70 back from Nikon repair and tcadwall - you were right! They did refurbish a bunch of extra stuff. New shutter, aperture(?), sensor cleaning, etc. In fact, they did $200 worth of extra stuff - but charged me for it! That wouldn't be so bad - if they would have fixed the original problem! :mad:

Yep, still a flaming red dot with trailing line and no mention of it in the invoice. I called tech support and the guy pulled up my original packing list, the invoice, and the notes from the last phone conversation I had with them, and said, 'Yep. Looks like we goofed.' He emailed me a shipping label, and I'm sending it back. I don't know what that means yet - I wonder if I'll be billed for the new repair on top of the old repairs? Remember, this thing is not under warranty.

Not being a whiner - I know that mistakes happen, and in fact the last Nikon customer service guy I spoke to was very nice and helpful (the first one was a bit of a tool however). I guess I'm most upset that I've got to go without the D70 again. Whenever I don't have it, I start thinking of other cameras... Is that like cheating?! :eek:

cvicisso
10-04-2007, 01:01 PM
I just noticed that I can't see the trailing line in the posted image in this thread on the cheap 17" Dell CRT monitor I use at work. As I mentioned it's very clear on my 24" iMac screen (even when viewed online), and on the 1.8" D70 LCD screen. Must be a CRT vs. LCD thing. :confused:

jcon
10-04-2007, 03:44 PM
I got my D70 back from Nikon repair and tcadwall - you were right! They did refurbish a bunch of extra stuff. New shutter, aperture(?), sensor cleaning, etc. In fact, they did $200 worth of extra stuff - but charged me for it! That wouldn't be so bad - if they would have fixed the original problem! :mad:

Yep, still a flaming red dot with trailing line and no mention of it in the invoice. I called tech support and the guy pulled up my original packing list, the invoice, and the notes from the last phone conversation I had with them, and said, 'Yep. Looks like we goofed.' He emailed me a shipping label, and I'm sending it back. I don't know what that means yet - I wonder if I'll be billed for the new repair on top of the old repairs? Remember, this thing is not under warranty.

Not being a whiner - I know that mistakes happen, and in fact the last Nikon customer service guy I spoke to was very nice and helpful (the first one was a bit of a tool however). I guess I'm most upset that I've got to go without the D70 again. Whenever I don't have it, I start thinking of other cameras... Is that like cheating?! :eek:

This happened to me with my D50, I had problems with the sensor and when I got it back, they had never even cleaned the sensor or the problem, so I called them, they apologized, emailed me the prepaid UPS label and said they would fix it free of charge. So, Since youve already paid for the repairs, I dont see why you would have to pay AGAIN now, they goofed, which they admitted too, and will rectify it!

tcadwall
10-05-2007, 06:28 AM
totally with Jcon. I would insist that they cover this one. Since they fixed things you didn't specify, but didn't fix the real problem... And caused you the inconvenience of not having your camera again. Even IF it is out of warranty, good customer service practice would result in some type of compensation, and billing you for yet another repair would NOT be good compensation.

FWIW - sorry that you had to go through this.

cvicisso
11-16-2007, 02:33 PM
totally with Jcon. I would insist that they cover this one. Since they fixed things you didn't specify, but didn't fix the real problem... And caused you the inconvenience of not having your camera again. Even IF it is out of warranty, good customer service practice would result in some type of compensation, and billing you for yet another repair would NOT be good compensation.

FWIW - sorry that you had to go through this.Hey - you guys were right!! :D I sent the D70 back to Nikon with a letter explaining that I was not satisfied with their repair. Although it took a while (I'm not complaining ;)), it arrived the other day and they didn't charge me a dime for the additional repairs! :D Remember - this thing is NOT under warranty, so they totally ate the cost on that one. And not only that, the reason it took so long was that they didn't FIX the CCD - they REPLACED it! Plus some work on the AF system, CLA and the previous repairs (shutter and aperture - repaired by mistake), this thing is essentially completely refurbished! Su-weet! :D

Anyway, just wanted to give Nikon some kudos for coming through with some great customer service. They goofed (who hasn't?). They admitted it. They fixed it. Customer is happy. What more can you ask for?

Class act. Well done, Nikon. You earned some points back with me.

Jason25
11-16-2007, 02:44 PM
Wow, that's fantastic! I'm glad it all worked out. It's nice to know good service does still exist at times :)

fionndruinne
11-16-2007, 08:31 PM
Excellent! It gives a used camera all the snazziness of something brand spankin' new, eh? I always like customer service that's meticulous and willing to spend some time over something that's not really making the company any cash, but makes the customer happy.

cvicisso
11-17-2007, 07:18 AM
I just noticed something strange. The EXIF info from the camera now says 'D70s' and the software version is 1.00. So, it seems they loaded it up with the D70s firmware (I had previously - before repair - with the D70 ver. 2.00 firmware). I know that these are essentially the same cameras except for the larger 2.0" LCD and remote cable release of the D70s, but still... strange, isn't it?

Has this happened to anyone else - or has anyone heard of it before?

coldrain
11-17-2007, 09:16 AM
I just noticed something strange. The EXIF info from the camera now says 'D70s' and the software version is 1.00. So, it seems they loaded it up with the D70s firmware (I had previously - before repair - with the D70 ver. 2.00 firmware). I know that these are essentially the same cameras except for the larger 2.0" LCD and remote cable release of the D70s, but still... strange, isn't it?

Has this happened to anyone else - or has anyone heard of it before?
My guess is that they put in a new main board that is actually a D70s board.
so the only difference between your camera and a D70s is now the 1.8" LCD.

e_dawg
11-17-2007, 03:31 PM
Good for you, cv! Now you can use your D70s as an asset and get a new Nikon or Olympus now! You gotta hold up your end of the bargain ;)

Seriously, though. There are some ridiculous deals out there now. You can get $100-200 off most Olympus lenses and bodies now. Even after saving $100 on my E-510, they lowered the price by $100 again, not a week after I got mine (B&H has no price protection policy, unfortunately), and now offering $200 off on the 12-60/2.8-4 lens again just after I got it on sale. All told, someone buying now can save $400+ easily on a body + lens compared to a month ago.

cvicisso
11-17-2007, 06:59 PM
Good for you, cv! Now you can use your D70s as an asset and get a new Nikon or Olympus now! You gotta hold up your end of the bargain ;):D You know, now that you mention it, I have been seriously contemplating that! I really liked the idea behind the E-330 when it first came out, but thought (correctly, apparently) that it was very overpriced. I think having a choice between the two live-view modes (with an articulating LCD) is a great feature, and the E-330 is (still) the only dslr that offers that kind of flexibility. They're selling brand-spanking-new E-330 bodies for $330 now! :eek: That's incredible. And incredibly tempting... :rolleyes: The E-330 is two years newer (going by announcement date) than the D70, and seems (from the reviews) right about on-par with it in the image-quality (including high-ISO) department. Grabbing an E-330 for $330 today wouldn't give me image stabilization or the weather-sealed body that I desperately lust after... but it would allow me to build up a 4/3 lens collection and learn the Olympus system while the E-3 prices drop. I know that I could make a few clams off of my now fully-refurbished D70 (or D70s?). I really, really want a weather-sealed body+lens, and so far no one has convinced me that I'll be able to get there by sticking with the Nikon system. Hmmm...


Seriously, though. There are some ridiculous deals out there now. You can get $100-200 off most Olympus lenses and bodies now. Even after saving $100 on my E-510, they lowered the price by $100 again, not a week after I got mine (B&H has no price protection policy, unfortunately), and now offering $200 off on the 12-60/2.8-4 lens again just after I got it on sale. All told, someone buying now can save $400+ easily on a body + lens compared to a month ago.What's the best deal right now on that 12-60 SWD lens?

fionndruinne
11-17-2007, 08:34 PM
I kinda think putting such a high priority to weather-sealing is a little off, personally.

Just use it to fund a D3.:)

cvicisso
11-18-2007, 08:44 AM
I kinda think putting such a high priority to weather-sealing is a little off, personally.

Just use it to fund a D3.:)I agree that it's a little off - about $3300 off! :D But seriously, the D3 is an incredible camera that I would LOVE to aspire to. Each system (4/3 and Nikon) have their advantages and disadvantages, and those disadvantages are different for different folks. For me personally, the smaller size (body +equivalent focal length lens) and weather sealing are big factors because I live at the beach. I wouldn't want to risk my $5000 (+lens cost) Nikon investment every time I took it on the beach, or every time it looked like rain. With the Oly, I wouldn't worry about that at all. I wouldn't get those high-ISO shots that the D3 is capable of, but, like I think we talked about in the other thread, I wouldn't MISS as many shots either because I'd have my rig with me more often.

Mine really is a unique situation, and I'm not suggesting that it fits everyone - or even ANYone else. It seems right for me (partially) because of my proximity to so much sand and water. But then again... I seem to waffle on the decision all the time too! :p Who knows, maybe when Canon releases their next model, I'll think that's the one for me... Ha, just joking! :D

swpars
11-18-2007, 10:39 AM
I plan to address weather-sealing issues with this or something like it in the future.

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-Stylus-790SW-Waterproof-Silver/dp/B000UWC5ZQ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1195404731&sr=8-3

If I'm going to an environment that's too hostile for the D40, I'll just take this rugged little fellow along with me - heck, I could even go snorkeling.

cvicisso
11-18-2007, 11:28 AM
I plan to address weather-sealing issues with this or something like it in the future.

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-Stylus-790SW-Waterproof-Silver/dp/B000UWC5ZQ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1195404731&sr=8-3

If I'm going to an environment that's too hostile for the D40, I'll just take this rugged little fellow along with me - heck, I could even go snorkeling.swpars - as my signature line currently confirms, you and I think alike! Here's what I've been taking to 'hostile environments' - link (http://www.amazon.com/Pentax-Waterproof-Digital-Camera-Optical/dp/B000HDHAOO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1195409626&sr=1-2).

It has been great! I love the look on people's faces when I take it down the slide with my son at the water park! 'Dude! Your camera!!' :eek: Priceless.

While I don't intend to ever take a dslr down the water slide, I do like to bring one to the beach pretty frequently. I took the D70 out there this morning (less than an hour ago), and while it was 'doable' - I certainly wasn't as 'at ease' as I would have been with an Oly E-3 or Pentax K10D. I had it (D70) all wrapped in a shirt, in a bag, had to tell my 3 year old to not kick sand near the camera (dad lost cool points for that). :cool:

My little W20 rules at the beach, but the image quality, control, response, etc (obviously) is nowhere near that of the D70 or any other dslr for that matter. And in poor light? Fuggetaboutit. Honestly, I could not imagine any worse IQ from a camera in poor light than the garbage my W20 churns out. BUT, like I've said before, even the crappy pics I take in low-light with my W20 are better than the ones I didn't take with a better camera that didn't fit in my pocket (and thus would be sitting at home).

So, I will be hanging on to my W20 regardless of what dslr system I end up with.

fionndruinne
11-18-2007, 11:15 PM
My D40's seen some pretty crazy weather at the beach. I just make sure I use the blower afterwards to get wet sand out of the nooks and crannies.

I do agree about the compactness of the Olympus 4/3 lenses. The 14-40mm kit lens is tiny! But, well, 4/3 is 4/3. To each his own.

cvicisso
11-19-2007, 10:59 AM
My D40's seen some pretty crazy weather at the beach. I just make sure I use the blower afterwards to get wet sand out of the nooks and crannies.Me too. And that's a risk I am willing to take (and do take) with my D70, but I know that I'm just rolling the dice every time I go out there (to the beach, in the rain, etc.). One day, I'm gonna lose that bet and it's going to die on me. I know that's a risk, and I take it anyway because I didn't pay that much for the D70. I'm not financially secure enough to risk blowing the bits of wet sand out of a $5,000+ D3 rig! :eek: I know that pros do it, but... well, I just can't. It would be like driving a Ferrari to the grocery store for me. Sure, it would be su-weet, and I could get there much faster. But, I'd always be wondering if someone is dinging my doors in the parking lot. But it doesn't really matter because I can't afford a D3 or a Ferrari. :D


I do agree about the compactness of the Olympus 4/3 lenses. The 14-40mm kit lens is tiny! But, well, 4/3 is 4/3. To each his own.Yep, it's a compromise for sure. Just like everything else. For me, I came to the realization (after chatting with a rather well-known Nikon pro) that it's ludicrous to keep chasing the IQ standard. You can't win because it's always going to be better next year. Just set the bar for yourself at what is 'acceptable' and don't look back. After all, we don't 'see' any better than we did 10 years ago (and I can say that I see much worse! :p), and we lived with ISO 400 and/or grain/noise and made the best of it. Yep, 4/3 will very likely always be chasing the APS-C sensors in high-ISO IQ. But, the E-3 seems (from initial reports) to trounce my D70 at high-ISOs (and just about everything else), so personally, I would still be 'moving up.' Besides, standalone NR software (like Noise Ninja) can assist here too - further closing the gap. However, I do realize that there will always be a gap (between full-frame, APS, and 4/3).

For the record, I'm not trying to knock Nikon at all. I had a Nikon film slr in high school and have a dslr from Nikon now. I really like the way it handles and feels. Nikon's record and reputation is solid. I have had excellent experience with their customer service (as this thread can attest). Apart from P&S's, I've never owned another brand. However, I am now finding myself more and more missing shots that I can now visualize or taking crappy shots because I either didn't have a camera or only had a crappy one (Pentax W20) with me.

As I sit today and consider those two paths diverging in the woods, I'm thinking more and more that I might just take the less-travelled one...

e_dawg
11-19-2007, 11:58 AM
The E-330 is two years newer (going by announcement date) than the D70, and seems (from the reviews) right about on-par with it in the image-quality (including high-ISO) department. Grabbing an E-330 for $330 today wouldn't give me image stabilization or the weather-sealed body that I desperately lust after... but it would allow me to build up a 4/3 lens collection and learn the Olympus system while the E-3 prices drop.

Hmm... I still think you'd be giving up a bit of IQ compared to the D70. As for $330, it's a decent deal, but the E-410 is only $400 and E-510 only $500 after having dropped $200 in the last month. Personally, I wouldn't get a system without IS either in the lens or body these days and would rule the E-410 out of consideration when the E-510 is only $100 more. If the E-510 is too much $, I'd definitely consider the E-330 before the 410.


What's the best deal right now on that 12-60 SWD lens?

Search on amazon. I think Cameta Camera sells it for $900, while most other places are $950. Add the $100 MIR from Olympus and you're at $800-850.

http://www.olympusamerica.com/files/LensRebate_2007.pdf

Just an FYI in case you're planning your Olympus lens purchases... Rumour has it that Olympus will be launching a lower cost super-wide zoom Q2 2008. Either a 9-18 (12-24 APS-C equiv) or an 8-17 mm (11-23 APS-C equiv). It won't be weather sealed, unfortunately. If you want a weather-sealed super-wide, you'll have to go with the 11-22 (equivalent to 15-29 APS-C) or the 7-14 (9-19 APS-C equiv).

http://www.olympus-esystem.com/dea/products/lens/pdf/zuiko_lens_eng.pdf

I was going to get the 7-14 myself since there's a $175 MIR right now, but I might just wait for the consumer level 9-18.

cvicisso
11-19-2007, 03:47 PM
Hmm... I still think you'd be giving up a bit of IQ compared to the D70. As for $330, it's a decent deal, but the E-410 is only $400 and E-510 only $500 after having dropped $200 in the last month. Personally, I wouldn't get a system without IS either in the lens or body these days and would rule the E-410 out of consideration when the E-510 is only $100 more. If the E-510 is too much $, I'd definitely consider the E-330 before the 410.I definitely agree about sacrificing IS - I'm not overly excited about that! :mad: But, the E-330 (or whatever I end up with in the near future) is intended to be just a stop-gap for me to learn the respective 'system' (Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, etc.) and build up some lenses. After I eventually (and hopefully!) buy the 'real' camera I'm after (D3, E3, etc.), this initial 'learning' dslr will be relegated to backup duty or maybe even conversion to IR (unless it's a K10D - which is the top of the Pentax line).

I really, really like the idea of live view on a dslr, but (IMHO) think it loses a lot of practicality if the camera's LCD doesn't tilt up and down (E-410 and 510, D3, D300, 40D, etc for example). Also, I really like that the E-330 allows the user to choose between A & B live view modes. With the A mode, the camera uses its normal AF system - no need to flap the mirror to get focus before tripping the shutter. Even today, almost two years after the E-330 was announced, no other camera (that I know of) does this. The D3/D300 don't have to drop the mirror to AF, but still use a different (non-primary) AF system (contrast detect) to focus in their live view modes.

I agree that the E-410 would be my last choice. The tilting LCD and live view mode A tip the balance (for me) in favor of the E-330 over the IS of the E-510. If only I could score one of those Leica 14-50mm O.I.S. lenses to go with the E-330... ;) That would solve the 'IS' problem (but would unfortunately also eliminate the great cost savings).

All in all, the E-330 seems to me like it was a pretty revolutionary camera when it came out - but was madly overpriced.

fionndruinne
11-19-2007, 11:35 PM
Well, I hope the fates don't punish me for this:rolleyes:, but, I think you're not giving these Nikons enough credit. DSLRs are plenty resistant to the weather, and I don't think you're rolling dice at all using your D70 at the beach. Dunking it all the way in the drink, that'd do the trick, but who needs to go in the water to get shore photos? Don't worry about the sand and spray, just keep it clean when you get home with it. Take off the lens and clean around the mount to get any particles that have lodged close to it. Clean the corners. The beach won't kill your camera.

And just for the record, I'd be willing to bet that the D3 is more weather-resistant than any of Olympus's offerings.

cvicisso
11-20-2007, 09:11 AM
Well, I hope the fates don't punish me for this:rolleyes:, but, I think you're not giving these Nikons enough credit. DSLRs are plenty resistant to the weather, and I don't think you're rolling dice at all using your D70 at the beach. Dunking it all the way in the drink, that'd do the trick, but who needs to go in the water to get shore photos? Don't worry about the sand and spray, just keep it clean when you get home with it. Take off the lens and clean around the mount to get any particles that have lodged close to it. Clean the corners. The beach won't kill your camera.Maybe you guys have a point... or, maybe I'm getting too easy to influence. :rolleyes: Maybe I feel guilty for talking smack about the durability of my D70 yesterday. Maybe I subconsciously just like to beat myself up. Maybe I need medication! :D

Anyway, I do feel sort of guilty. Although I haven't had it very long, technically, my D70 has never failed me because of water or sand. I never really gave it a chance - I just assumed from what I've read that I would be taking a big gamble by taking it (or its eventual weather-sealed Nikon replacement) on the beach. I'm pretty sure I got a very sweet deal on it, and now it's completely refurbished. Tons of people raved about it when it came out, and there is lots and lots (and lots) of information, samples, advice, tricks, etc available about the D70 online (and even at Barnes & Noble). There are a gajillion D70's out there.

There is a clear, definite and time-tested pro upgrade path for me by sticking with Nikon - chosing otherwise (except Canon of course) is a gamble. Maybe I didn't place enough weight on this gamble, and instead placed too much on the weather-sealed one? Nikon will be around for a long, long time - and even if they drop off the face of the earth tomorrow, there are pieces of kit available today (D3) that will very likely answer my pro needs for most of the rest of my life (with God's help! :rolleyes:).

I think I'm going to punt this decision for now, buy a $100 50mm f/1.8D AF (my manual focus 50mm won't meter on the D70) and maybe a rain cover and a Strobist-ish flash solution, and work on my photographic skills instead of continually obsessing over what might happen on the beach. (Geez - I hope I didn't just jinx that! :eek:) The f/1.8 should answer some of the poor high-ISO mail (by allowing lower ISOs) and it is a tremendous bargain. The VR/IS will have to wait for now... but not having that crutch might (theoretically) even help me as I learn to become a better photographer.

e_dawg - I'm afraid I'm gonna leave ya hangin' for now, brother! I'd like to put the D70 through the proper paces before I reject it out-of-hand. I will miss that live view though... :rolleyes:

I appologize for my long, wandering posts. Thanks for all the advice (you're not done yet though!), and a big THANKS for putting up with me!! :D

e_dawg
11-20-2007, 01:08 PM
That's okay, cv. If you felt there was a clear benefit to go with Olympus, you wouldn't be on the fence so much. If there isn't a compelling reason to switch, don't. I'm not completely sold on the E-510 myself... it improves in some areas, but gives up ground in others. In fact, I'm recommending the Sony A100 ($580 with 18-70 kit lens) to my buddy over the D40/D40x, Olympus E-410/510, and Canon Rebel XT/XTi as his first dSLR. Still no single system that does it all for me.

fionndruinne
11-20-2007, 05:14 PM
Definitely take advantage of that 50mm, since it autofocuses for you!:p

It is easy to start obsessing over gear, but you've got it right; trust what you've got and then get out there and work it! After all, the goal is to wear that thing out in the field, right?

Seriously, though, anything short of total submersion should be something your camera can handle. The key is just to clean it after it gets dirty. Only if that sand sticks around for a long while will it really become a problem, working its way into places it shouldn't.