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K1W1
01-12-2006, 02:58 PM
It's hardly unexpected but I guess when you see it "in print" one starts to realise that an era in photography is about to end.

http://www.nikon.co.uk/press_room/releases/show.aspx?rid=201

D70FAN
01-13-2006, 06:36 AM
Go where the sales are...

If you have an F6, what more do you need in 35mm film?;)

K1W1
01-13-2006, 02:14 PM
Ah yes but how much longer will you actually be able to buy film?
Surely as the supply of film cameras dries up film manufacturers will cease to mass produce it so film will become something of a niche market. Niche markets usually equate to expensive.

thesween
01-13-2006, 03:07 PM
Go where the sales are...

If you have an F6, what more do you need in 35mm film?;)


Film, you'll need film. And if what I get from pro photog friends is true, Kodak will be out of the film manufacturing business within five years. There are already several types of "pro" film I can no longer find locally. If clocks still ticked, they'd be ticking towards doomsday for film and film cameras. Nikon's announcement is major, a landmark decision in the history of photography.

Cold Snail
01-13-2006, 04:08 PM
35mm film may be on it's last legs, but there's always the larger formats.
I still shoot with my 35mm body, having a proper full frame using inexpensive lenses is much more cost effective than buying a digital only lens, only to find out in a few years it will be useless as the sensors get larger.

D70FAN
01-13-2006, 04:44 PM
Film, you'll need film. And if what I get from pro photog friends is true, Kodak will be out of the film manufacturing business within five years. There are already several types of "pro" film I can no longer find locally. If clocks still ticked, they'd be ticking towards doomsday for film and film cameras. Nikon's announcement is major, a landmark decision in the history of photography.

I'm not sure of where you live, but which specific types pro films are you having a problem finding? (This question is actually the only serious part of this reply, the rest is just in fun).

- All of you pros still shooting 35mm film, and using Kodak, raise your hands... c'mon, I know you are out there. Hey, pioneers come and go.

- Clocks do still tick... At least my Timex Expedition and Seiko dress watch do. Hey... and so do my quartz wall clocks. They are all ticking I tell you! :eek:

- Nikons announcement is mainly official house cleaning. They have been de-emphasizing old manual film stuff for years. I'm hoping this drags down the cost of that F5 I've been looking at. The lack of compatibility of AI and AIS lenses for Nikon consumer dSLR's should have been a clue (a continuing Rhys pet peve).

If they had abandoned the F6 and non-DX AF lenses, THAT would be a major, landmark, decision. And possibly apocalyptic.

- Bottom line: Film may become a niche product, but it's not going away anytime soon. Not if Arizona Hiways Magazine has anything to say about it. Nikon really does need to put more quality time in to dSLR design. Hey, we still have Ovaltine and Maypo...:)

And thanks in advance for letting me poke a little fun.;)

K1W1
01-13-2006, 10:07 PM
Yes George and we all know that one can still source tyres for Model T Fords but does that mean Model T Fords are a normal representation of a modern motor vehicle?
Film cameras (35mm at least) are now moving into in the Model T category - a novelty that only enthusiasts and old retired guys have the knowledge and time to maintain and use on special occasions.
:) :)

cwphoto
01-14-2006, 06:59 AM
Yes George and we all know that one can still source tyres for Model T Fords but does that mean Model T Fords are a normal representation of a modern motor vehicle?
Film cameras (35mm at least) are now moving into in the Model T category - a novelty that only enthusiasts and old retired guys have the knowledge and time to maintain and use on special occasions.
:) :)

Harsh but true.

cwphoto
01-14-2006, 07:05 AM
- All of you pros still shooting 35mm film, and using Kodak, raise your hands... c'mon, I know you are out there. Hey, pioneers come and go.

I'll put my hand up. Just finished a wedding about two hours ago - all film.

Just for the record: 5 rolls of Kodak Portra 160NC 135-36 and 1 roll of Kodak Portra 400BW 135-24. I also had a couple of rolls of Portra 400NC 120 that I wanted to use up, but I couldn't remember where I put my charger for the Rollei - so I couldn't use it.:p

You know it felt really weird, after each shot I was looking down to where the LCD should be to confirm. It's amazing how new things (only switched to digital six months ago) become easily entrenched.

D70FAN
01-14-2006, 07:53 AM
I'll put my hand up. Just finished a wedding about two hours ago - all film.

Just for the record: 5 rolls of Kodak Portra 160NC 135-36 and 1 roll of Kodak Portra 400BW 135-24. I also had a couple of rolls of Portra 400NC 120 that I wanted to use up, but I couldn't remember where I put my charger for the Rollei - so I couldn't use it.:p

You know it felt really weird, after each shot I was looking down to where the LCD should be to confirm. It's amazing how new things (only switched to digital six months ago) become easily entrenched.

So as a person using 35mm film on a regular basis, are you having problems finding film? Would you miss not using Kodak Porta, or would others work as well for your shooting?

I think that my whole point was that film will most likely be around and in good supply 5 years from now. And that if Nikon only makes one pro film camera, and it's the F6, then maybe that's enough.

And of course maybe this will bring that used F5, I have been wanting, down a little in price. I like my old FE, but I'm getting spoiled using (rented) pro AF-S lenses on the D70.

I also look down automatically to preview the image on the FE.;) I'm sure that most dual shooters (digtal and film) have the same problem.

thesween
01-14-2006, 11:05 AM
My whole point was that what George says is open to serious debate. I highly doubt that film will be around in good supply in five years. If Kodak dumps out of the market, do you think Fuji is going to be far behind? I sure don't.

I'm not exactly a visionary, but I often used to have spirited discussions on usenet groups with those who felt digital would never replace film. And that was only 3-4 years ago. My contention is that digital has already replaced film. Just for the sake of any further discussion, I have a half dozen 35mm cameras, and three 6x6mm cameras. I also have three rolls of Velvia in my refrigerator, which I'm saving as collectors items.

As far as film remaining as a niche, no, I think novelty is a much more accurate term.

D70FAN
01-14-2006, 12:24 PM
My whole point was that what George says is open to serious debate. I highly doubt that film will be around in good supply in five years. If Kodak dumps out of the market, do you think Fuji is going to be far behind? I sure don't.

I'm not exactly a visionary, but I often used to have spirited discussions on usenet groups with those who felt digital would never replace film. And that was only 3-4 years ago. My contention is that digital has already replaced film. Just for the sake of any further discussion, I have a half dozen 35mm cameras, and three 6x6mm cameras. I also have three rolls of Velvia in my refrigerator, which I'm saving as collectors items.

As far as film remaining as a niche, no, I think novelty is a much more accurate term.

maybe it's that we are looking at this from a developed country, and not a developing or 3rd world view. As I travel Japan, Europe, and the US the trend is digital, but there are still quite a few film cameras being used.

In traveling Thailand, and China, I still see a lot more film cameras, than digital. Even in large westernized cities like Shanghai, and especially where SLR's are concerned.

If Kodak abandons film, Fuji's stock will go through the roof and vice-versa. That may be the one factor that keeps both in the hunt down-the-road.

Also many of us who have dreamed of shooting medium format (120/220) can now afford it with a lot of used gear showing up fairly cheap. As I am talking to people buying used 645's and etc. they are in the same situation. I'm thinking that it will take a while to make medium format digital cheap enough to completely replace film.

I'm not saying that film will be arround forever, but as long as it is still practical and has a relatively large following, be it medium format here, or 35mm in China and Africa, as long as there is demand there will be a supply. I'm thinking Kodak and Fuji will still have a large, but shrinking, customer base in 5 years.

In this country (USA), E-6 processing may become the problem.

K1W1
01-14-2006, 03:01 PM
I think you are wrong about China and Asia George.
What you are seeing there is are the people who have had money for some time (albeit only a few years) and the very early adopters. What you are not seeing is the absolutely massive developing middle class who will go straight from nothing to broadband Internet and digital photography. The same is happening in India. These are the people who will kill film and I suspect your 5 year predication is a little optomistic. I for one am expecting an announcement from Kodak within the next 3 years that they are ceasing 35mm film production. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a plan in place already with their recent announcements and logo change - all aimed at repositioning themselves away from being known as a supplier of film.

cwphoto
01-14-2006, 05:27 PM
So as a person using 35mm film on a regular basis, are you having problems finding film? Would you miss not using Kodak Porta, or would others work as well for your shooting?

I think that my whole point was that film will most likely be around and in good supply 5 years from now. And that if Nikon only makes one pro film camera, and it's the F6, then maybe that's enough.

And of course maybe this will bring that used F5, I have been wanting, down a little in price. I like my old FE, but I'm getting spoiled using (rented) pro AF-S lenses on the D70.

I also look down automatically to preview the image on the FE.;) I'm sure that most dual shooters (digtal and film) have the same problem.

It's starting to become a problem. I walked into my usual supplier on Friday and he didn't have exactly what I wanted (I would have preferred Portra 400NC and a 36 of the Portra 400BW). He only gets in T-Max 3200 one carton at a time - so it often isn't stocked either.

He said it won't be long before they're out of supplying all but the most popular of emulsions. The days of me popping in to buy the odd roll of Kodak IE or HIE (infrared) are over - unless I as a customer will commit to a whole carton of the stuff (which ironically I may well do as I quite like infra-red) then forget it.

It's a catch-22. The suppliers are stipulating that they must purchase in greater bulk, but the consumers aren't buying as much or as regularly. That sort of inelasticity as a business becomes pretty unsustainable pretty quickly, and makes the digital argument even more compelling...

thesween
01-14-2006, 08:25 PM
My usual supplier of Portra in both formats closed his doors last June. He carried a wide array of films in color and B&W, neg and transparency, but he just couldn't keep the lights on with his dwindling customer base. It was indeed sad, because his shop had been in business for over fifty years. Unfortunately, he simply refused, stubbornly and publicly, to have anything to do with digital. Now, he's gone.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, regardless of age or years spent in photograpy, but outside of sentimentality, I really can see no reason to cling to film.

Nick
01-16-2006, 12:34 PM
Stores don't stock film as they used to - small family photo stores have mostly vanished from my area. However, if 10 years ago they had a wide-array of choices, I could buy just about anything, in the past while (2002+), the selection they offered was very limited. So I started buying film online instead.

Mainstream, I'm sure a switch to digital photography has already been made, or is in the process of being made and will sometime within the next 5 or so years be finalizing.

But film in general isn't going to die, not a long time. I realize it's a lot more specialized then 35mm ( so my argument might be a little flawed ) but 120 format has been around for what, just about a century? Even though it's a pain in the ass to load quickly and only offers 12/16 frames ( compared to endless digital ) depending on what you use, and despite that most bodies weight a ton, I love it to death anyway and I'm sure avaliability will be...um, avaliable as long as there's a demand, which isn't going anywhere.

35mm on the other hand - hmm.

D70FAN
01-16-2006, 02:14 PM
I think you are wrong about China and Asia George.
What you are seeing there is are the people who have had money for some time (albeit only a few years) and the very early adopters. What you are not seeing is the absolutely massive developing middle class who will go straight from nothing to broadband Internet and digital photography. The same is happening in India. These are the people who will kill film and I suspect your 5 year predication is a little optomistic. I for one am expecting an announcement from Kodak within the next 3 years that they are ceasing 35mm film production. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a plan in place already with their recent announcements and logo change - all aimed at repositioning themselves away from being known as a supplier of film.

When was the last time you were in China? I go a couple times a year, and it's not changing quite that fast, although if only 10% of the population goes digital, that is over 100 million cameras.

Things do change quickly and I guess time will tell.

D70FAN
01-16-2006, 02:17 PM
Sorry to hear that the film supply is drying up. It seems to be fine over at my local camera store, but that could be because I don't shoot IR and rarely shoot B & W either.

I'll ask the guys next time I'm in the camera store.

Easy guys I'm just guessing like you are. Just not sure it's worth the panic.;)

thesween
01-17-2006, 04:51 AM
A couple of thoughts here.

1)...I really don't know where anyone continues to see a demand for 120/220 film. I can quickly count 5 pro photogs among my acquaintances, and all of them shoot digital exclusively. And this isn't new, a few of them went digital 4-5 years ago. Another old friend of mine has a huge photography/imaging/marketing business in New England, and he keeps a few Blads around strictly in case a client demands film, which he tells me thay never do.

2)...Nick's comment about small family shops no longer existing rings very true with me. Within the last 2-3 years, we've seen the last of them shut down in my area. My favorite shop went dark probably 5 years ago, they just couldn't make a buck. And it's just another thing that drove me into the arms of digital. That shop's tekkies knew me and what I wanted when it came to developing and printing.

3)...I, too, had to turn to mail-order/internet for film, especially Velvia. Locally, even when it was available, was through the roof price-wise. Let me put it this way; what B&H charged for a roll of Velvia - which included a processing mailer - was less than half what local shops were charging for the film alone.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but I'll continue to stick with
my gut-feeling that film is doomed, and the end may come a lot quicker than we'd like to believe. One final thought for now(I promise); if any film survives, it will be 35mm.