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View Full Version : Nikon D50 - Dust after 4 days!??



stekar@mac.com
11-04-2005, 12:08 PM
I've noticed a dust on the sensor while shooting blue sky, smallest aperture and widest-angle on the kit lens.

Now, while I am well-aware of dust issues on D-SLR, I thought this only occurs when swapping lenses. I had the camera for 4 days and never ever removed the kit lens 18-55mm.

I contacted Nikon and they suggested I either clean the sensor or return the camera, and so I opted for the latter...

Question: Anyone knows how the dust got in there? It happened after I shot a bee feeding on pollen with the biggest aperture possible and the lens as close as possible to the flower heart. Isn't the lens mount sealed?

That's really too bad as I loved this camera and I can't go back to a normal digicam now. My only viable option seems to go with the -dust-buster- Olympus E-500...

:mad:

coldrain
11-04-2005, 12:31 PM
I've noticed a dust on the sensor while shooting blue sky, smallest aperture and widest-angle on the kit lens.

Now, while I am well-aware of dust issues on D-SLR, I thought this only occurs when swapping lenses. I had the camera for 4 days and never ever removed the kit lens 18-55mm.

I contacted Nikon and they suggested I either clean the sensor or return the camera, and so I opted for the latter...

Question: Anyone knows how the dust got in there? It happened after I shot a bee feeding on pollen with the biggest aperture possible and the lens as close as possible to the flower heart. Isn't the lens mount sealed?

That's really too bad as I loved this camera and I can't go back to a normal digicam now. My only viable option seems to go with the -dust-buster- Olympus E-500...

:mad:

Why did you not just blow the dust away or have it cleaned? I have an EOS 350D for about 7-8 months, 3 lenses and a lot of lens changes and I do not have a dust problem. If I do get annoying dust on the sensor i will just blow it away with an appropriate dust blower.

stekar@mac.com
11-04-2005, 12:39 PM
When you've already spent over $ 800.00 the last thing you want is to buy additional cleaning kit and then tamper with the sensor.

Also, since i'm new to D-SLR I'm scared of messing up the sensor...

The reason Canon cameras are slower to exhibit this phenomenon is due to the CMOS vs. CCD technology.

nwpoland
11-04-2005, 01:18 PM
i had some dust on my d50 too. seemed way too easy to just blow it off. took me about 10 seconds. sounds like you've spent much much more than that just talking about a problem that you could so easily fix. if you're afraid of hurting it then just look around for some tips. it's really not a big deal unless you're trying to use something like sand paper to clean it off. :)

D70FAN
11-04-2005, 03:40 PM
The reason Canon cameras are slower to exhibit this phenomenon is due to the CMOS vs. CCD technology.

Who the heck told you that? It's absolutely not true. All sensor types are equally succeptable to dust. I've had my D70 for 18 months and only had to use a bulb-blower once or twice.

A standard bulb-blower will remove dust in most cases. If not there are some nice cleaning brushes out there as well. You're not cleaning the sensor directly, you are cleaning the glass IR filter covering the sensor.

It's part of the reality of owning a dSLR. I'm not going to get into the E500 thing again, but for you it should be the perfect fit. But while the self cleaning, at turn-on, may work most of the time, there is no guarantee that you won't see dust while shooting between sensor cleanings on the E500 either.

And to your earlier post: Typically, neither the lens mount nor the lens are generally sealed (except on some pro grade lenses with o-ringed mount).

stekar@mac.com
11-04-2005, 05:09 PM
i had some dust on my d50 too. seemed way too easy to just blow it off. took me about 10 seconds. sounds like you've spent much much more than that just talking about a problem that you could so easily fix. if you're afraid of hurting it then just look around for some tips. it's really not a big deal unless you're trying to use something like sand paper to clean it off. :)


This is my first post, I'm new to the world of D-SLR's and that's how nice people are here? You know, I simply asked a legitimate question due to the intriguing problem I experienced.

BTW, I never said I refused to cleane sensors (yeah, I know it's not really the sensor...), as I stated I should not have to see dust after 4 days of use with a single lens. If this happened after taking a simple pic in my backyard, then I can't imagine what will happen when taking pics of my kids in a park...

stekar@mac.com
11-04-2005, 05:14 PM
Who the heck told you that? It's absolutely not true. All sensor types are equally succeptable to dust. I've had my D70 for 18 months and only had to use a bulb-blower once or twice.

A standard bulb-blower will remove dust in most cases. If not there are some nice cleaning brushes out there as well. You're not cleaning the sensor directly, you are cleaning the glass IR filter covering the sensor.

It's part of the reality of owning a dSLR. I'm not going to get into the E500 thing again, but for you it should be the perfect fit. But while the self cleaning, at turn-on, may work most of the time, there is no guarantee that you won't see dust while shooting between sensor cleanings on the E500 either.

And to your earlier post: Typically, neither the lens mount nor the lens are generally sealed (except on some pro grade lenses with o-ringed mount).

Simply put: I don't have the time, energy and patience to mock with sensor cleaning. One fo the reasons I'm interested in the E-500 would be for the 'auto cleaning' sensor. So, could you please point me to threads where experiences/comparisons/flaws with the E-500 dust-buster are described?

NEL
11-04-2005, 07:15 PM
No dust on my D50 after 2-3 months of use. Had lenses removed only 4-5times. Your case can't be typical.

Balrog
11-04-2005, 07:56 PM
As far as I know, there aren't really any flaws with the dust buster - many Oly owners happily report 2 years dust-free... one minor gripe is that it runs every time you turn on the camera, slowing down the startup - but then you can just leave the camera in standby to get around that.
If the rest of the camera + lens system is ok for you, then go for it!
Pretty much the only major knocks against the Oly cameras right now are the noise and the tiny viewfinders .. there's also complaints about the 4/3rds lens lineup but Olympus is expanding the Zuiko digital line very fast, and well - they're almost uniformly above-average optics.

nwpoland
11-04-2005, 11:50 PM
This is my first post, I'm new to the world of D-SLR's and that's how nice people are here? You know, I simply asked a legitimate question due to the intriguing problem I experienced.

BTW, I never said I refused to cleane sensors (yeah, I know it's not really the sensor...), as I stated I should not have to see dust after 4 days of use with a single lens. If this happened after taking a simple pic in my backyard, then I can't imagine what will happen when taking pics of my kids in a park...

No intention to give you a cold welcome. I just take issue with your post that seems to say that there is an inherent problem with the D50 just b/c it has dust. For those reading through the posts who are thinking about buying such a camera you could lead them to a different product by your post, when the problem is something that could be easily addressed.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude...just trying to speak directly. Maybe I should have just said "don't worry...you can clean it and everything will turn out great!"

There are some seemingly expert users around here. It's a great place to learn a ton of useful stuff and get involved in some interesting conversations. You're definitely welcomed here as the more users sign up, the more possibility everyone has to learn something new from each other!

TheObiJuan
11-04-2005, 11:52 PM
The reason Canon cameras are slower to exhibit this phenomenon is due to the CMOS vs. CCD technology.

LOL, that's it. ;)

K1W1
11-05-2005, 03:22 AM
No intention to give you a cold welcome.

I wouldn't be too concerned. The original poster has spent probably 5 times longer complaining about an issue and saying that he / she doesn't have the time to fix the issue than it would have actually taken to rectify the issue in the first place.
I have read these posts as a justification of "Why I gave my D50 back in exchange for an E500" more than as a discussion of a real problem. That's fine, that is the posters opinion and he / she is perfectly free to express it just as others are free to point out the opposite side of the argument.

D70FAN
11-05-2005, 07:45 AM
Simply put: I don't have the time, energy and patience to mock with sensor cleaning. One fo the reasons I'm interested in the E-500 would be for the 'auto cleaning' sensor. So, could you please point me to threads where experiences/comparisons/flaws with the E-500 dust-buster are described?

I was only taking issue with your statement concerning sensor type succeptability to dust. And I'm still interested in who might have told you that, and why.

As I said, while it's not my cup-of-tea, the E500 is the ideal camera for you. No muss-no fuss. I haven't heard of anyone having problems with the self cleaning feature, nor did I say that...

For more info you might want to try the Olympus dSLR thread. Norm (From Fujino) has had an E-300 for quite a while and does very well with it. The E-500 is similar to the E-300.

stekar@mac.com
11-06-2005, 08:57 AM
LOL, that's it. ;)

CCD's are more electronically charged than CMOS sensors. I never said cameras with CMOS sensors don't have dust, I simply stated that these sensors don't attract dust that much.

A camera with CCD will 'pick up' dust (think of it as static) as soon as you turn it on while this phenomenon is less pronounced on a CMOS sensor. This is why blowing it does not solve anything reallu, as dust will simply remain in the body and wait to get picked up again.

Anyway, just get a book on micro-electronics and read...

Norm in Fujino
11-06-2005, 10:36 AM
As far as I know, there aren't really any flaws with the dust buster - many Oly owners happily report 2 years dust-free... one minor gripe is that it runs every time you turn on the camera, slowing down the startup - but then you can just leave the camera in standby to get around that.
If the rest of the camera + lens system is ok for you, then go for it!
Pretty much the only major knocks against the Oly cameras right now are the noise and the tiny viewfinders .. there's also complaints about the 4/3rds lens lineup but Olympus is expanding the Zuiko digital line very fast, and well - they're almost uniformly above-average optics.

Thanks for the bit of support, Balrog. I don't find the viewfinders particularly tiny, although any vf could be bigger, I suppose. Everyone's already been subjected to my thread about E-300 noise (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13538), so I won't belabor the point here. FWIW, I've heard of almost no reports of real dust bunnies on the E-system sensors. I posted a message (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13304) some time back regarding a dust test I did on my E-300, but it was really non-substantial. I never have been able to figure out whether there was anything to my test or not. In any event, it certainly wasn't dust in the obnoxious way you usually see it on other dSLRs (when it does appear). From everything I've read, dust is really a strange issue on non-Olympus cameras. It seems to affect some cameras or people quite frequently, while other people seem immune. I gather that larger sensors (like the so-called "35mm full-frame sensor" of the Canon D5) have worse dust problems than cameras with smaller sensors, but I don't know of any statistical evidence.

In any event, the dust shaker on the Olympus cameras definitely works, from every thing I've personally experienced, read and heard from other Oly owners.
(If you look at the thread I referenced above, you may or may not see something; I have trouble myself detecting anything in them, and it certainly isn't the kind of visible dust you see elsewhere.)

thesween
11-06-2005, 01:07 PM
When you've already spent over $ 800.00 the last thing you want is to buy additional cleaning kit and then tamper with the sensor.

Also, since i'm new to D-SLR I'm scared of messing up the sensor....

I paid nearly twice that for a D70 and lens some time ago and was absolutely POed when splotches started showing up in some images within a month or so. Since then, and after reading lots both here and elsewhere, my thinking is that as of now, we need to accept sensor dust as a way of life with the dSLR. Not that I like it, but apparently it's part of the trade-off with technology, at least for the time being. So far, I've been lucky, and using a Hurricane gently has removed 98% of the dust.

I also keep seeing getting your camera cleaned as an option, which sounds fine, but where? Outside of sending the body back to Nikon, which'll cost you big out of warranty, many of us have few, if any, repair shops nearby. The local camera shop has gone the way of the dinosaurs, with the last one in my area closing down within the last year. Even when we had a few here, they wanted $65 to just look at any camera. Not a price any of us care to pay regularly for a sensor cleaning. I haven't done so yet, but my plans are to buy a kit and do the work myself, sooner or later. Cheers...

D70FAN
11-07-2005, 04:26 PM
CCD's are more electronically charged than CMOS sensors. I never said cameras with CMOS sensors don't have dust, I simply stated that these sensors don't attract dust that much.

A camera with CCD will 'pick up' dust (think of it as static) as soon as you turn it on while this phenomenon is less pronounced on a CMOS sensor. This is why blowing it does not solve anything reallu, as dust will simply remain in the body and wait to get picked up again.

Anyway, just get a book on micro-electronics and read...

I have to admit that as an engineer with almost 30 years in the semiconductor industry, as both applications engineer and marketing manager, I have never read that CMOS processed imagers and NMOS processed CCD's had different static charge characteristics.

It would be intersting to see specifically which articles you are referring to, since there are thousands of books on microelectronics and it would help to see which ones you are referencing.

CMOS (Complimentry Metal Oxide Semiconductor) is a multi-technology manufacturing process, not a technology specific to image sensors. Standard CCD's are produced on less flexible and older, dedicated NMOS (Negative-channel Metal Oxide Semiconductor) processes. CMOS is a more common and cheaper process, but both sensors use a similar charge transfer structure.

CMOS structures are much smaller, cheaper, and more flexible than either NMOS or PMOS, but until recently had noise problems when used in image sensors, and I'm pretty sure noise is still part of the reason that larger CMOS arrays are manufactured on full-frame (36mm x 24mm) formats to keep the pixel size as large as possible and noise as low as possible.

But that is a whole other discussion, and the reason Canon will have the same problem as Nikon/Sony when attempting to build a high density CMOS imager larger than 10MP on a sub APS-C sized array. And why Nikon decided to stay with CCD's for their latest DX sized 10MP imager. Ever wondered why the all-in-one cameras don't typically use CMOS? Even the G6 uses a 1/1.8 CCD.

It may be that CCD's generate a minutely greater static field when operating, but I would have a tough time believing that it's enough to cause a greater amount of dust to gather on the glass filter than on CMOS processed imagers.

But then again I learn something new every day which is why I love this industry.;)

K1W1
11-08-2005, 03:44 AM
George,

As they say here in Australia, you are trying to push shit up hill. The original poster is only trying to justify their buyers remorse in purchasing the D50 then finding out that the E500 was released and having to return the D50 for what they perceived as a better camera (In that respect I'm glad they are happy and can now move to the Olympus forum and complain about 2.5 second start up times).

Thanks for the explaination but I fear it is wasted in the context of this thread.

D70FAN
11-08-2005, 06:37 AM
George,

As they say here in Australia, you are trying to push shit up hill. The original poster is only trying to justify their buyers remorse in purchasing the D50 then finding out that the E500 was released and having to return the D50 for what they perceived as a better camera (In that respect I'm glad they are happy and can now move to the Olympus forum and complain about 2.5 second start up times).

Thanks for the explaination but I fear it is wasted in the context of this thread.

Thanks.

I am just curious as to where the information came from. Sorry about the long winded answer. It is possible that someone has written a paper on this subject and I missed it in my normal review of technical papers.

A reply like "just get a book on microelectronics and read" is like saying "to understand the workings of your new car just get a book on cars and read". Sort of a challenge that says you don't know squat so go look it up.

I know a lot about semiconductors, but I'm far from an expert, so I try to learn something new every day. The same is true for digital photography.