Sony N1 vs. Sony T9 vs. Panasonic FX9

[JungleRoom]

I have been looking for an ultra-compact digital camera for low light conditions for a while now, previously in this thread: http://www.dcresource.com/forums/sho...t=15162&page=3

However, I really didn't come into any real conclusion since information on how different ultra-compact perform in low light is not really available. My requirements were that that the camera must be small and espcially slimness would be a big plus (since I would mostly carry in my inner breast pocket). The camera must be easy to use (I really don't know how to or even want to adjust things manually that much) and then there's the low light thing. Let me explain it: Basically I plan on taking pictures in the nighttime under the street lights (coming home from a bar ) or alternatively I plan on taking pictures at someone's house with mood lighting. Of course, the camera would act as a bacic camera as well (holidays, taking pics of pets et cetera).

The really important thing, however, really is that the camera has to be small. The reason for this is that I plan to carry it with my almost always and if I go , say, dancing, I'd feel really ankward having a big camera swinging about in my pocket. That's why cameras like Fujifilm F10/F11 or Canon SD550 are not options. Fujifilm Z1/Z2 are the size of Sony T9, but based on reviews, they really aren't as good although Z1 seems to have less noise in high ISO levels than T9 (Z2, I hear, sucks big time).

The reason why I have these three cameras as choices is because they are all small/slim, they all have been well received by the critics and two of them are black in finish (the black finish was a requirement as well, but N1 is just so darn cool, even with a silver finnish). Other reasons are that these cameras are all new, two of them have OIS, and I do like their style (even Panasonic's style has become to appeal me).

The size and style:

Sony N1 weighs 185g and is 2.27 cm (0.89") in depth. Sony T9 weighs 160g and is 2.00 cm (0.8") in depth. Panasonic FX9 weighs 155g and is 2.42 cm (0.95") in depth. (BTW I'm not 100 per cent about the weights although I tried to find the correct weight with batteries and a mem card inside). T9 is clearly the way to go if you want an extra small camera. However, when I tried some of the T-line cameras in a store, they feel almost too small and I was worried I'd break them. N1 is slimmer than FX9 but bigger in other dimensions and heavier in weight. However, since the slimness is the most important thing, N1 would be come second in this category. Oh, and if you're wondering, Canon SD550 weighs pretty much the same as Sony N1, BUT SD550's depth (2.7 cm or 1.1") is the factor here which makes me not want to have it as an option.

Stylewise I again like T9 the most as it is available in black and it just looks so cool. N1, though not black, also looks like a cool camera. FX9 feels more classic and does not appeal as much as the other two.

Performance in low light:

Of course, when you make an extra-small camera like T9 you have to compromise and the flash performance and overall the low light performance is not that great. A member of this forum, madkat, bought this camera, and he was kinda disappointed in performance in low light conditions. I'm not too sure about FX9's performance but I hear it has got a better flash than T9 has. Then there's the N1. I previously has mentioned about a photo I had seen in a review of this camera. The photo was taken in a city street in the dark with only the city lights offering any kind of light. The photo looked pretty good, and now with DCResource's own review of N1 as proof, N1 seems to have really good low light performance for an ultra compact, and I bet it's better than FX9 in that respect.

Other features:

Let's discuss about OIS. I have heard good things about it like it really helps in my kind of situations where I just pop the camera out, hold it in my hand and take quick snapshots of friends posing or sometimes even jumping in the snow or whatever (I know the motion-shots can be tricky). Then again I've heard some bad things about it like it adds noise and makes low light pics a bit worse. T9 and FX9 both have it, and N1 does not have it. But is it really so important. Sure it may come handy when taking pics of moving objects but most of my pics I'd take of inamimate objects. This is a real questionmark...

Sony N1 has that big 3" touch-screen lcd. One of my worries has been that as I'd keep the camera in my pocket, the lcd would get scratched. Sure there are these protection-layers (Sony has them) but still. I've tried to find info on whether N1 has more durable lcd since you have to stick your fingers to it all the time, but with no luck. Also, I think it's great that N1 doesn't have all that many buttons (I really want a simple camera) but then again, the touch-screen might be difficult to use and if my hands are dirty in some way the screen gets dirty as well -- although it's quite safe to assume that lcd can be cleaned easily since it can't be used withough leaving fingerprints.

Then there's the temperature-issue. I live in Finland and it's winter right now. I have a really good winter-coat and the camera would be safe there from the cold, but I worry that if I take the camera out for something like 5-15 minutes in order to shoot outside would the cold ruin the camera (outside cold -> inside humidity). I did find in Canon's webpage that with Canon's cams the operating temparature should prefarably be 0-40 degrees Celsius (32-104 degrees Fahrenheit). Finland's winter is kinda mild right now with the temperature being -12 degrees Celsius (10.4 degrees Fahrenheit) but it can get up to -20 degrees Celsius (-4 degrees Fahrenheit) sometimes. However, some people have told me that they have used their cameras in cold weather without the camera suffering any kind of damage, and actually my friend has this a couple of years old Sony U20 camera (really small, though kinda thick) that he has used in similar situations than I would and his camera still works. But... I really wouldn't want to destroy an expensive camera in cold.

I guess I should point out that while Panasonic FX9 has received much praise and won quite a lot of group tests, the one problem everybody seems to mention about it is the noise. Some have even called it the 'noise king'. Sure, all ultra-compacts have noise (which camera doesn't), but I guess FX9 seems to have more noise than avarage.

The batterylife of these cameras is decent with N1 having the best batterylife. FX9 is takes home the silver in this category and T9 the bronze. As for on-board memory, both N1 and T9 have over 50Mts of it (although I hear N1 has only 26Mt for pics and the rest goes to the photoalbum and slideshow thingies) but FX9 has only 16Mts which isn't that much.

One other thing, both the Sonys have USB2.0 but FX9 has only the slower USB (USB1.1 I believe). This is a minor concern but I really would like USB2.0 since I wouldn't be using a memorycard reader (who has the time to take the memorycard out, right ).

Conclusion:

There are many choices but these three stand out, to me at least. They are all ultrasmall/ultraslim, they are all new with up-to-date features and they have all been received well. Also, they are all stylish which is important for me as well. The Sonys are somewhat more expensive than the Panasonic but I feel the Sonys offer cool features for the buck. Obviously though the best bang to the buck camera is Panasonic FX9, but my budget isn't that tight. Still, I'd really hate it if I paid something like 500 dollars (in Finland it's probably more) for Sony N1 and then broke it due to cold or due my dropping the camera in a bar.

Any thoughts? Sorry about the long post, by the way

EDIT: I tried to cover everything important in this text but seem to have left out two things. First, I would NOT be printing out the photos but would only be storing them in my laptop (so that I can remember the good old times with my friends). Secondly, some people may wonder why I want to buy an expensive ultra-compact if I A) won't print out the pics B) use the camera mainly as a bar-camera C) worry the camera breaks due to hits or due to cold. Well the answer is that I'm just one of those guys who likes to buy fancy gadgets and who wants his gadgets to be just a little bit better than his friends gadgets are. However, I do realize always that it makes no sense to buy an expensive gadget if I don't have any use for its many properties. I am a working student and don't have daddy's trust fund so while I do well and can buy somewhat expensive things, my budget is limited and for example Sony N1 would be a big purchase for me moneywise. Let's just say, that while I do have some budget limitations, I usually go for the best bangs, not the best bangs for the bug ;

[the.monk]

I am completely with you on the request, except as it seems to me the Fuji F11 is the best camera right now.
I know that it is not a slim as all the others, but when it comes to taking pictures out at night, the other cameras will result in only blurry shots.
I think I'm going for the F11, at least thats my opinion today.

[coldrain]

Originally Posted by the.monk

I am completely with you on the request, except as it seems to me the Fuji F11 is the best camera right now.
I know that it is not a slim as all the others, but when it comes to taking pictures out at night, the other cameras will result in only blurry shots.
I think I'm going for the F11, at least thats my opinion today.

I already adviced him the Fuji Z1 with the same plus, but he does not want to hear that... he does not even look at photos himself. So, I will not bother trying to advice him anymore.

[the.monk]

Coldrain-
Do you think the photo quliaty of the Z1/2 measures up to the F10/11? I'm trying to decide between the two and, of course, I'd rather the smaller size if I'm not giving up too much.

[JungleRoom]

Originally Posted by coldrain

I already adviced him the Fuji Z1 with the same plus, but he does not want to hear that... he does not even look at photos himself. So, I will not bother trying to advice him anymore.

Coldrain, I get a feeling of tention in your writing. Please know that I did take your advice to count but is it your expert opinion that just because Z1 doesn't have as much noise in high ISO levels as, say, T9 (by the way, I bet Sony N1 got less noise than Z1) it's a no-brainer. What about the rest of the camera? The lcd is way worse than the ones on those two Sonys and the quality of lcd is important if I'm going to use it in low light. I know different reviews and group tests test the overall quality of the camera without focusing on things such as performance in low light, but it seems that every test I read ranks Z1 as a below-the-avarage camera. In fact, the most recent ultra-compact camera test in a Finnish magazine, Z1 finished dead last with Sony T9 and Panasonic FX9 winning the test.

I know you have good intentions, but I just can't see the sense in picking a particular camera just because it has one great aspect (but the other aspects are kinda no good).

I know that there are lots of people in this forum who are way more pros in camera stuff than I am and I can see why I constantly get the Fujifilm F11 recommendations. But understand that while I do not like making compromises, in order to get slim enough camera I am going to sacrifice better performance a little bit. F11 is just too big. I mean test it out yourselves. Put on a jacket, put the F11-size camera into your inner breast pocket and start jumping around. If the camera doesn't cause ankwardness then I'm wrong, but I'm willing to bet it does, or notably moreso than, say, anyone of the three cameras I have listed.

As for the comment that anyone of those cameras I have listed produce blurry pics in low light, I again have to say that even my friend's old Sony U20
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/spec...ony_dscu20.asp
has produced good enough pics in circumstanced similar to what I have in mind.

Coldrain, I apologize if you feel that I have dismissed your advice. I took it under consideration and believe me you're not the first one to recommend Z1, but I feel that people base their recommendation on solely the low noise in high ISO levels thingy and do not take count Z1 as a whole. I know in these bigger camera sites such as this one Z1 got a positive review, but aren't we forgetting that that was then, and if for example DCResource would do a group test with Z1 going against newer cameras such as N1, T9 and FX9 the low noise in high ISO levels might still give some edge to Z1, but in lcd quality, additional features, OIS... c'mon. Plus I bet the overall picture quality is better with these three.

So to sum this long text (this seems to be a bad habit of mine) I'd really like someone's expert opinion on which one of the three I've listed would make more sense for me to buy. I know people are tempted to say that the differences are minimal and that I should just select the one that feels right the most but there's got to be something that you folk can say about the differences.

BTW, check out the user reviews (there are only few, but you can find it by googling them up) on Fujifilm Z2 which is supposed to be the follower of Z1. Wow, it has received some bad reviews.

[coldrain]

You can judge the photo quality yourself, on this site. You will see that the Z1 has equal quality to the T9 and better than the FX9. Use your own eyes.

For tests, I have read a test in a magazine I trust and they found the Z1 to perform on the whole below the Canon SD500 (ixus 700) and above the T7.
For low light there just is no choice, unless you want to always flash. And then you should just get an SD500/550 because it has a more powerful flash. But if you want your low light and no flash, you can not do better than the Z1.

You can again write a way too long rant, I do not like some guy who does not know much about cameras himself to tell me off, so I will not reply anymore.
I have given very clear reasons why your demands need a more sensitive sensor, NOT image stabilization because image stabilization will not work in clubs. If you can not read what is typed, that is your problem. Happy new year.

And to answer the.monk's question, the Z1 has a better lens than the T7/T9, but not as good as the F10/F11, the F10 has the better image quality of the two (you can see that also in the pictures from Jeff Keller's review).

[JungleRoom]

Coldrain, I'm not attacking you or anything. I cannot understand why two grown people can't get along. I mean sure you have a right to question me as I'm the first person to admit that my knowledge of digital cameras is VERY VERY limited, but wouldn't it be more constructive to try to further explain to me what makes Z1 better than T9/N1/FX9 for me, instead of just saying something like "I'm an expert, I've given my opinion and that's that". I wan't trying to tell you off, believe me. I would be crazy to tell you off since you probably know 100x more about cameras than I do. But really... we are grown men and I gotta say you wouldn't be much of a salesperson if your attidude was like it is now. I've always wondered what makes people in internet forums upset but I guess it has to do with people being different. I'm a patient person myself and I'm not saying you're not but something's wrong. I mean this is the first digital camera I'm buying and I'm paying a whole lot for it considering I do have budget limitations. Forgive me if I want a little more info on why Z1 would be better than the other choices...

By the way, I have looked at the pictures but have YOU compared the night shots of Sony N1 for example against Z1. Wouldn't you say N1 has the edge over Z1 in that department?

[coldrain]

Originally Posted by JungleRoom

Coldrain, I'm not attacking you or anything. I cannot understand why two grown people can't get along. I mean sure you have a right to question me as I'm the first person to admit that my knowledge of digital cameras is VERY VERY limited, but wouldn't it be more constructive to try to further explain to me what makes Z1 better than T9/N1/FX9 for me, instead of just saying something like "I'm an expert, I've given my opinion and that's that". I wan't trying to tell you off, believe me. I would be crazy to tell you off since you probably know 100x more about cameras than I do. But really... we are grown men and I gotta say you wouldn't be much of a salesperson if your attidude was like it is now. I've always wondered what makes people in internet forums upset but I guess it has to do with people being different. I'm a patient person myself and I'm not saying you're not but something's wrong. I mean this is the first digital camera I'm buying and I'm paying a whole lot for it considering I do have budget limitations. Forgive me if I want a little more info on why Z1 would be better than the other choices...

By the way, I have looked at the pictures but have YOU compared the night shots of Sony N1 for example against Z1. Wouldn't you say N1 has the edge over Z1 in that department?

Fine, if you find this:

(Sony DSC-N1)

better than this:

(Fuji Z1)

by all means buy a DSC-N1. If you know what you want, then just buy it.
If you do not see just how noisy the Sony gets, and makes all details disappear, fine. Have fun with your N1 in your clubs.

[the.monk]

Coldrain, thanks for all the help i finally ordered the F11.
I wanted the z1, but looking at the photos from the F11 and i was set.
Thanks and I'll comment on the results.

[madkat]

Hi all,

First of all, I'd like to apologise to JungleRoom for my late reply. Secondly Happy New Years every one !

Ok down to business... Personally I have seen both the Casio S500 and Sony T9, and I'd have to say I like the form factor of the T9 better. It's slighty thicker, but since it's a all metal construction, it feels better built and plus I've got big hands so it fits nicely.

Anyway here's some shots so you can judge for yourself if you like it or not... (Warning: please bear with the slow speed, this is being a slow 25k/s uplink...)

Nite shot 1 is taken a few meters away from the subjects, mind you it was new years eve so I can't really remember how far away, but you can see the picture is pretty noise. The camera was set to "Auto" mode and here you can see the T9s love for ISO320, which incendently doesn't bold well for image quality...

Nite shot 1 ISO 320 F4 1/50

Here's another Nite shot, taken in "Program" mode, here I've locked the ISO to 100, and set flash to full. Compared to the previous shot, you can see it's alot cleaner, but still some what noisey. At the end of the day though, totally acceptable...

Nite shot 2 ISO 100 F3.5 1/40

One thing you'll have to understand though, is that at ISO100, not all your photos will come out properly exposed, I have had photos turn out extremely dark. Also due to the relatively weak nature of the flash, if your subject is far away (read 2-3m) from the camera, pictures will turn out noisey, which pretty much makes large group shots a tricky affair.

So what for you JungleRoom... Here's what I've found out recently, doing some more research... Look for a camera with low" Aperture Range", which I believe is how wide the lense can open to recieve light (i.e. better low light performance).

Since you'll be taking photos in clubs, which are usually dimly lit + dimly lit streets, it's doubt full you'll be taking photos using natural light much. So good flash is important... Something else I've found out... All cameras that have a "folded optics" design have a pretty "high" "Aperture Range" (~F3.5). Cameras with "normal optics" (i.e. extendable) have a low "Aperture Range" (~F2.8).

So where to from here, if you don't like the photos you see here, I'd recommend the DSC-N1, or SD550 (probably SD550 over N1 if you don't mind the low battery life). What about the S600? 6Mpx digital, OIS, F2.8, smaller and better battery life than T9?

So what about me? I was initally disapointed with the T9 but then again, it's a compromise I'm willing to live with.

I hope this helps, it's been a long rant, but definately an over due one...

Some extra notes:

Daytime shots are pretty awesome, camera will ocassionally goto ISO320 though
Since red eye reduction is pretty much useless, I've just turned it off...
Also battery life is awesome, too 200+ shots /w flash on single charge
OIS is awesome when taking videos

Cheers guys/gals,

Madkat