I'm looking at possibly getting either the Canon 20D, Nikon D70s or Konica Minolta 7D. I have no collection of lenses so this is an open field for me. Also the Canon's 2mp advantage should not be taken into account here, since I won't be printing anything over 8x10. Cost is also a facter, and I'll be starting out with the kit lens for whichever I get. I've had to chance to "play" a little with these at my local shop, and have gotten a good feel for them - all handle pretty well. I've also read the reviews and seen sample pictures from these cameras but still can't make up my mind, although right now the KM-7D seems to be in the lead. I won't be needing an extensive collection of lenses, just a couple of zooms and a bright prime. I plan on shooting mostly outdoor and low-light scenes, with a little indoor flash usage.
Here's some pros and cons I came up with -
KM-7D pros:
- nice large LCD
- lots of buttons & dials which I prefer to menus
- integral AS
- viewfinder seems to be the best
- best price
KM-7D cons:
- some have reported BF issues
- some have reported inconsistent flash exposure
EOS-20D pros:
- extensive collection of lenses, but not really a factor for me
- good flash setup and options
- extra 2mp can't hurt I guess
EOS-20D cons:
- IS lenses on the expensive side
- most expensive of the 3 I've found
- small LCD
This is really all I could come up with, and I'm hoping others can provide some input to these models and perhaps some features or issues I've missed. Right now from what I've seen and read, the KM-7D appears to be the best value for me. Any input and/or comments are greatly appreciated!
Well, there will be a number of replies and votes based on existing equipment. That's my case, as I have an extensive collection of Maxxum lenses and such. I voted for the 7D, and in fact just bought one. With the current $200 rebate available, it was just a little more than the 5D, but for me a better camera. I like having controls on the outside like my Maxxum 7 better than using menus. The Anti-Shake capability for my existing lenses was also a big plus.
In your case, since you have no stock of lenses, it may very well come down to which just "feels right". Good luck with whatever you decide.
I bought my first DSLR this past year. I was also starting from scratch - my film SLRs were old Canon FD mount, and the lenses weren't supported on any DSLR system.
For me the choice came down to Canon or Nikon. I wanted to buy into a system which allowed me to use the same lenses for film bodies. The Maxxum series might have been an alternative, but I just didn't consider it an industry leading system. Canon and Nikon gear is available everywhere. I challenge you to name one pro photographer who uses any other brand of DSLR!
I wound up with a used Canon EOS 10D, and soon thereafter bought a used 20D as well. I've had good experiences with Canon gear in the past and was (reasonably) familiar with the control layout. Canon's telephoto lenses are hard to beat, and since I shoot mostly auto racing, this was crucial to me.
Also, the impression I get is that Canon is the industry leader in DSLRs at the moment. I think they have a technological edge in sensors. Nikon buys its sensors from Sony, while Canon makes their own. The 20D's sensor noise performance is superb. The EOS 5D is the first "affordable" full-frame DSLR, again because Canon has made breakthroughs in sensor manufacturing, and its performance is also stellar.
And I think there are more Canon DSLR users now than Nikon. Look at the used camera listings at Fred Miranda, for instance - lots more EOS stuff than Nikon at the moment, and it's not because the Canon users are switching!
That's just my opinion, your needs may vary. For instance, if you like to shoot wide, Canon's wide angle lenses are a weak point. This might be why they brought out the EOS 5D. But I can't remember anyone ever complaining about a Nikon wide angle.
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This would actually be a tough decision if I didn't already have a D70. The 20D would be my second choice. The Minolta 7D isn't even on my radar, and this may be a serious mistake, on my part, but I just don't find it very appealing compared to the like-featured 5D.
The 7D, like the 5D, has some terrific features (sensor based AS, 2.5" Monitor) but the shutter speed is a bit detuned at 1/4000 and falsh sync at 1/160. These shortcomings probably don't matter to most people, but this is K-M's flagship (?), and the 5D covers these features for less.
Twiddling knobs and lack of an info LCD (also 5D) are also things I don't care for with the 7D. Another big factor, along with other competitors in this market, is the lack of an apparent upgrade path.
Both Nikon and Canon continue to compete with higher performance, professional grade, and prosumer priced dSLR's (Canons competitor for the D200 will probably be out in time for PMA)
It's a good bet that all 3 cameras will give you great results. So it comes down to personal preferences, value, and to some degree the wow factor.
I like Nikon for all of the little things they included on the D70 (The D70s is a placeholder). Yes it has it's quirks, like moire' (which I have only seen in a handfull of pictures) but nothing was detuned or left off, and it fits the current position of Nikons consumer flagship (as does the 20D for Canon).
The little things may not mean much individually, but show that Nikons goal was to design a serious enthusiast dSLR: 1/3 stop ISO settings, mirror grid overlay, 1/8000sec shutter speed, 1/500 x-sync, speedlight Commander control mode, spot metering, large continuos shooting buffer, adjustable center weighted exposure circle (I love this feature) and finally great ergonomics, fast low-light AF, and fast settings/review control.
Keeping in mind that the D70 was the first high performance dSLR for under $1000 on the market (6 months ahead of the 20D which cost $500 more, and 1 year ahead of the XT) it is still competitive in it's price range.
I will be moving on to the D200 for many of the same reasons I bought the D70.
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Once you go dSLR you'll never go back
Well, to this day, I'd guess there's still a dedicated group of Leica pros. Then there's the photographer featured a while back that uses fixed lens digitals. There's a small army of wedding photogs using Fuji S series cameras, though they are starting to lose sales to the D200 because they've been slow updating (and, to be fair, they do use Nikkor glass).
I appreciate the responses, thanks and please keep them coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Riehm
Twiddling knobs and lack of an info LCD (also 5D) are also things I don't care for with the 7D.
George - a lot of good comments in your post. My eyes aren't what they used to be, and I need reading glasses now. That's one of the main reasons I'd prefer not to have to dive into menus to select a commonly used function, where I'd have to put glasses on just to do that. I think once you've learned the button layout, it would be much faster as well. And I thought the 7D's (and 5D's) LCD is used as an info display when not looking through the viewfinder? The large, clear and bright LCD sure would seem to help in that regard.
As far as an upgrade path, I concur that Canon and Nikon have the edge right now. But I don't think KM is going away anytime soon. The Nikon does appear to have the edge in low-light shooting which is something I'll be doing a lot of, and that's why the Nikon is still in the running. I'm just not as comfortable with its smaller viewfinder compared to the 7D's. Also, I think the 7D's AS would factor in low-light shooting conditions, and where just about any lens becomes an IS lens. The low flash sync might be an issue however, as I will be doing a little flash work.
So basically I'm still trying to decide, and it looks like it's narrowed down to the KM and the Nikon. The Canon is also the only one I've found that would cost more than $1k with the kit lens so far. And it seems like pricing has now stabilized among the mfgrs.
I appreciate the responses, thanks and please keep them coming.
George - a lot of good comments in your post. My eyes aren't what they used to be, and I need reading glasses now. That's one of the main reasons I'd prefer not to have to dive into menus to select a commonly used function, where I'd have to put glasses on just to do that. I think once you've learned the button layout, it would be much faster as well. And I thought the 7D's (and 5D's) LCD is used as an info display when not looking through the viewfinder? The large, clear and bright LCD sure would seem to help in that regard.
As far as an upgrade path, I concur that Canon and Nikon have the edge right now. But I don't think KM is going away anytime soon. The Nikon does appear to have the edge in low-light shooting which is something I'll be doing a lot of, and that's why the Nikon is still in the running. I'm just not as comfortable with its smaller viewfinder compared to the 7D's. Also, I think the 7D's AS would factor in low-light shooting conditions, and where just about any lens becomes an IS lens. The low flash sync might be an issue however, as I will be doing a little flash work.
So basically I'm still trying to decide, and it looks like it's narrowed down to the KM and the Nikon. The Canon is also the only one I've found that would cost more than $1k with the kit lens so far. And it seems like pricing has now stabilized among the mfgrs.
I didn't mean to imply that KM is going away. In fact I just read recently that they have some sort of joint agreement with Sony. My point here was that the 5D has all of the goodies of the 7D but at a lower cost.
AS can be helpful in low light conditions where your subject is not moving, but was really designed for those long telephoto shots of static targets where camera shake is amplified. That's why it's called Anti Shake (or Vibration Reduction-VR or Image Stabilization-IS) instead of movement stabilization.
It would be nice if Nikon would reintroduce a dSLR version of BSS (Best Shot Selector) which selects the best of several quick sequential shots, and stores it. This worked great on my CP990.
In closing if you like the KM features then maybe you should also be looking at the 5D instead of the 7D.
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Once you go dSLR you'll never go back
if you like the KM features then maybe you should also be looking at the 5D instead of the 7D.
I'm quite familiar with what AS/VR/IS does and its limitations, and that the 7D incorporates this into the camera body is a big + for me. The 5D does not have all the features of the 7D, but the shutter speed and flash syncs are the same between them (according to KM's site). For my needs, the 7D has these features that I consider advantages over the 5D:
- many more direct function buttons (a very key factor for me)
- higher resolution LCD (207k vs 115k)
- higher magnification viewfinder (0.9x vs 0.83x)
- greater viewfinder diopter control
- faster continuous drive modes (for sports related)
- time lapse function
- option for vertical control grip (for extensive portrait use)
Again, my needs are likely to be different from yours and others. And the first few of my advantages above also apply to the Nikon and Canon I was considering. I appreciate you trying to sway me, as I may have missed some issues with a camera. But you should look into the accuracy of information you're providing.
I'm quite familiar with what AS/VR/IS does and its limitations, and that the 7D incorporates this into the camera body is a big + for me. The 5D does not have all the features of the 7D, but the shutter speed and flash syncs are the same between them (according to KM's site). For my needs, the 7D has these features that I consider advantages over the 5D:
- many more direct function buttons (a very key factor for me)
- higher resolution LCD (207k vs 115k)
- higher magnification viewfinder (0.9x vs 0.83x)
- greater viewfinder diopter control
- faster continuous drive modes (for sports related)
- time lapse function
- option for vertical control grip (for extensive portrait use)
Again, my needs are likely to be different from yours and others. And the first few of my advantages above also apply to the Nikon and Canon I was considering. I appreciate you trying to sway me, as I may have missed some issues with a camera. But you should look into the accuracy of information you're providing.
I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other just hoping you will look at the alternatives.
What was wrong with the accuracy of the information? Based on your original listed of important factors, I responded by addressing those. Now your list has grown. All I said was (based on your original requirements) that you might want to look at the 5D.
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Once you go dSLR you'll never go back
George, George, George... What will we do with you?!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Riehm
I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other just hoping you will look at the alternatives.
Believe me I have, and I know what's currently out there right now.
Quote:
What was wrong with the accuracy of the information?
You stated:
"the 5D has all of the goodies of the 7D but at a lower cost."
When that's not the case is it?
Quote:
Based on your original listed of important factors, I responded by addressing those. Now your list has grown. All I said was (based on you original requirements) that you might want to look at the 5D.
My list of important factors hasn't changed. In the KM Pros I stated above, I mentioned I prefered buttons and dials in contrast to menu choices. Obviously the 7D has this over the 5D, along with the other points I mentioned - because you stated the 2 cameras were basically the same, when I was pointing out they are not, and giving the reasons I preferred the 7D over the 5D. You also stated that shutter speeds and flash sync were different in the 5D and 7D when they're not. This is what I meant by your inaccuracy. If you're going to suggest something (and I'm open to that, hence the post) then you should at least give accurate data that supports the suggestion.
Now I'm still possibly interested in the D70s, but I haven't seen anything yet that shows that it's a better camera (for me). The 1/8000th shutter speed advantage you mention is there, but that's about it all the new info I've seen so far.
Oh, and George - I hear that Nikon's new D200 will have more functions removed from the menus and moved to direct buttons and dials. From your preference of not liking to "twiddle" buttons and knobs, I'm not sure the D200 may be the best upgrade for you? From the pre-reviews I've seen of the D200 - I'd love to have it, and would buy it in an instant if it was under the $1k price mark. Unfortunately, it's not and I'm stretching it by going to a KM 7D or D70s, with the KM 7D less so because of it being the least expensive of the DSLRs I'm looking at.
Canon EOS-20D vs KM-7D vs Nikon D70s ??
But I can't remember anyone ever complaining about a Nikon wide angle.
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