New FZs--what's your opinion?

[PixChick]

I am curious to know what anyone thinks about the benefits of choosing the FZ-20 over the FZ-15, or vice versa. I know that there are no reviews yet and the FZ-15 is MIA while the FZ-20 (and FZ-3 for that matter) has hit the stores and even has a few sample photos to be found. There are very few differences between the two (the 15 and 20) and I am curious as to what anyone thinks might be an issue to the average person when considering which one to buy. In other words, is a hot shoe and an extra MP that big of a deal?? How about the noise factor?

Thanks for your thoughts

PixChick

[John_Reed]

I am curious to know what anyone thinks about the benefits of choosing the FZ-20 over the FZ-15, or vice versa. I know that there are no reviews yet and the FZ-15 is MIA while the FZ-20 (and FZ-3 for that matter) has hit the stores and even has a few sample photos to be found. There are very few differences between the two (the 15 and 20) and I am curious as to what anyone thinks might be an issue to the average person when considering which one to buy. In other words, is a hot shoe and an extra MP that big of a deal?? How about the noise factor?

Thanks for your thoughts

PixChick

Me, I've always thought 2MP was enough to satisfy most people's shooting needs - 4MP gives you some cropping room, 5MP gives you even more cropping room, but with the 12X zoom, you can do a lot of composition right in the camera as you're shooting, so a little more cropping room isn't a big deal to me. I think the FZ15 should show lower noise levels, i.e., be able to shoot more cleanly at higher ISOs, but that's a subjective feeling based on the FZ15's larger sensor sites, and the FZ20 results I've seen so far indicate that noise is pretty well under control anyway. If you look really closely at the specs, you'll see that the FZ15's burst rate is 4 frames/second vs. 3 frames/second for the FZ20, and also I think its continuous shooting rate (until the card is full) is faster. I do a lot of "burst" shooting, so that'd make a difference. One advantage of the FZ15 would be an image file size that's 20% smaller than image files of the FZ20, so your memory card will hold just that many more images. Lastly, on the flash, I'm one of the rare people who thinks the FZ10 flash is more than adequate, and the new FZ15/FZ20 flashes are supposed to have more range than the FZ10. Me, I wouldn't pay anything for the flash shoe. If that series of answers tells you that I'd probably be at least as happy, if not happier, with the FZ15, you're getting my drift. On the other hand, if someone gave me an FZ20, I'd still keep it!

[PixChick]

Me, I've always thought 2MP was enough to satisfy most people's shooting needs - 4MP gives you some cropping room, 5MP gives you even more cropping room, but with the 12X zoom, you can do a lot of composition right in the camera as you're shooting, so a little more cropping room isn't a big deal to me. I think the FZ15 should show lower noise levels, i.e., be able to shoot more cleanly at higher ISOs, but that's a subjective feeling based on the FZ15's larger sensor sites, and the FZ20 results I've seen so far indicate that noise is pretty well under control anyway. If you look really closely at the specs, you'll see that the FZ15's burst rate is 4 frames/second vs. 3 frames/second for the FZ20, and also I think its continuous shooting rate (until the card is full) is faster. I do a lot of "burst" shooting, so that'd make a difference. One advantage of the FZ15 would be an image file size that's 20% smaller than image files of the FZ20, so your memory card will hold just that many more images. Lastly, on the flash, I'm one of the rare people who thinks the FZ10 flash is more than adequate, and the new FZ15/FZ20 flashes are supposed to have more range than the FZ10. Me, I wouldn't pay anything for the flash shoe. If that series of answers tells you that I'd probably be at least as happy, if not happier, with the FZ15, you're getting my drift. On the other hand, if someone gave me an FZ20, I'd still keep it!

Thanks for pointing out the info about the burst rate and the continuous shooting differences. I hadn't noticed that info. Good point about the file sizes too. I have kind of been wondering to myself if the 15 might just turn out to be a *better* camera than the 20. I don't know that the flash shoe would make much difference to me. I have been debating whether I care about that extra MP only b/c I am sort of a "crop-o-holic" but then again, with the 12x zoom, hopefully I won't have to do so much cropping. I will be very interested to see what the reviews have to say when they are available. Any thoughts on the different ISO settings for the two (64 vs 80)? I wonder what is up with the 15 and why is not being sold yet??

PixChick

[Listener]

I'm very interested to know about the fz20's 80 ISO on the low end - pros and cons.

[John_Reed]

Any thoughts on the different ISO settings for the two (64 vs 80)? I wonder what is up with the 15 and why is not being sold yet??

One other slight difference between the FZ20 and the FZ15 is that for the FZ20, Panasonic gave up a millimeter of wideangle to get 12 milllimeters more telephoto extension (36-432 vs 35-420). Maybe it just lets them edge out the Minolta Z3 in the zoom race? (Off the subject, but an on-line friend who bought both an FZ20 and Z3 for comparison has already sent the Z3 back, says "it's crap." Maybe she got a lemon?)

I understand the FZ15 is supposed to become available around Sept. 8th. Hmmmm. That's my wedding anniversary. Wife, are you listening?

Without comparing the two cameras' noise levels at minimum ISO, the ISO 80 vs. ISO 64 choice for the FZ20/FZ15 respectively is hard to figure. If I were designing a new camera, I suppose I would lower the ISO to the point of "no more noise," and then why go below that? Considering the relative sensor sizes, I'd expect the FZ20 to be the "ISO 64" model, and the FZ15 to be the "ISO 80" model. When comparing camera speeds to other cameras, both are faster than ISO 50, so the already-fastest f2.8 Leica lens gets a further boost from the higher minimum ISO. I do know that my FZ10's ISO 50 images are virtually noise-free; Noise Ninja couldn't find a noise signature to calibrate on when I tried it on an ISO 50 image. And Panasonic has introduced some new noise-filtering tactics with its Venus II engine, so maybe they can push the envelope on up to 64 or 80 and still be "noise-free." Time will tell, time will tell.

[PixChick]

I think the FZ15 should show lower noise levels, i.e., be able to shoot more cleanly at higher ISOs, but that's a subjective feeling based on the FZ15's larger sensor sites, and the FZ20 results I've seen so far indicate that noise is pretty well under control anyway.

Can you explain to me what you mean by "larger sensor sites?" I am just not familar with that terminology. I thought I had seen that both the 15 and the 20 had the same size sensor, so do you mean relative size, considering difference in MP, or is there something else that I don't know? I would definitely think that the ISO 80 should go in the 15 as a result, but then again, if the noise levels have been low on the 20 from what we have seen, then you just get the benefit of the extra speed, and that is nice. Still thinking that the 15 might be the way to go, as long as the extra MP doesn't make a difference (which it probably doesn't for most purposes), and the lower price certainly helps too. I am anxious to see some professional reviews of both (if anyone actually reviews both).

PixChick

[John_Reed]

Can you explain to me what you mean by "larger sensor sites?" I am just not familar with that terminology. I thought I had seen that both the 15 and the 20 had the same size sensor, so do you mean relative size, considering difference in MP, or is there something else that I don't know?

The FZ15 can't possibly have the same sensor as the FZ20, since the former's sensor contains 4M sites, and the latter's contains 5M sites (give or take a few!) As each sensor is the same physical size, that means that the FZ20's CCD sensor has 25% more sensing sites in the same area of the FZ15's CCD sensor. Ergo, the area consumed by each sensing site of the FZ20 is ~80% of the corresponding area of the FZ15's sensing site. In DRAM design (a field in which some even refer to me as a "pioneer") we used to think that we could keep reducing memory cell geometries from generation to generation, just evolve with the shrinking technology. But it was discovered back in the late '70s that there was a minimum memory capacitor "critical charge", and if you went below that, memories started to get unreliable, subject to "alpha-particle" disturbances, or "soft errors." Likewise, with the CCD sensors in digital cameras, the smaller the sensing site becomes, the more susceptible it will be to random disturbances not related to the imaging information it's supposed to be faithfully storing. The consequences of smaller sensing sites seem to be manifest in today's current crop of 8MP fixed-lens cameras, none of which seems to have totally put the "noise" issue to bed yet. Long-winded answer to your question?

[PixChick]

The FZ15 can't possibly have the same sensor as the FZ20, since the former's sensor contains 4M sites, and the latter's contains 5M sites (give or take a few!) As each sensor is the same physical size, that means that the FZ20's CCD sensor has 25% more sensing sites in the same area of the FZ15's CCD sensor. Ergo, the area consumed by each sensing site of the FZ20 is ~80% of the corresponding area of the FZ15's sensing site. In DRAM design (a field in which some even refer to me as a "pioneer") we used to think that we could keep reducing memory cell geometries from generation to generation, just evolve with the shrinking technology. But it was discovered back in the late '70s that there was a minimum memory capacitor "critical charge", and if you went below that, memories started to get unreliable, subject to "alpha-particle" disturbances, or "soft errors." Likewise, with the CCD sensors in digital cameras, the smaller the sensing site becomes, the more susceptible it will be to random disturbances not related to the imaging information it's supposed to be faithfully storing. The consequences of smaller sensing sites seem to be manifest in today's current crop of 8MP fixed-lens cameras, none of which seems to have totally put the "noise" issue to bed yet. Long-winded answer to your question?

Thank you for the explanation, I appreciate the detail. That makes sense to me, I just hadn't heard the term sensor sites, only sensor, so I was unsure of what that meant. I am glad to know a bit more of the technical aspect of sensors in the cameras. I understood before that the more MP you pack into a censor without changing the size, the more noise you end up with, but I didn't really know the reasons. I enjoy knowing how things work, so thank you. I guess when I said "same sensor" I meant same physical sensor size, but I didn't have enough knowledge to say it that way. Again, thanks! And by the way--I did not find that long-winded at all

Oh, yes--would you mind telling me what "DRAM" is? This is all very interesting to me!

PixChick

[John_Reed]

Oh, yes--would you mind telling me what "DRAM" is? This is all very interesting to me!

"DRAM" is an acronym for "Dynamic Random Access Memory," which is the type of memory that your computer uses for its "main frame" memory. "Dynamic" means that information (data) is stored in little teensy capacitors on silicon chips, and left to its own devices, the data would fade away in time, if it weren't for the periodic "refreshing" that's performed to keep DRAM data fresh. The first DRAM in the world to hit volume production was the 1,024 bit Intel i1103, which I designed and brought to market for them back in late 1970. Nowadays there are DRAM chips with 1,000,000,000 bits of memory. Just as a history calibration, it would take maybe a million i1103 chips to duplicate the memory functions inside my "little" FZ10!

[banderson317]

I can live without the hot shoe - something I wouldn't need or want all the time.
I can live without the extra MP - something I wouldn't need all the time - I can't imagine printing something that large and with the 12x zone, not as much need for cropping.
Less noticeable noise - now that's something I would want and expect in every picture.

So if the FZ15 can deliver a better quality picture than the FZ20 then I'm sold on the FZ15.

Therefore, in theory (without samples) if the sensors on both cameras are the same size (1/2.5) then does an extra MP in the FZ20 mean more noise?

Brian