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  1. #41
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    Well, apparently something caused a stir at SONY's corporate nonsense center, because now there seem to be a serious push internally that would appear to be "listening to the masses" and what the users want in their future Full Frame shooter. Who knew?

    If fate were kind, there would be one more OVF that would be a tremendous build, with firmware upgrades to make use of the 36MP sensor. This camera would also be a full body unit, with more accessory points and RF remote control capability, both shutter release (remote AF focus activation and release) and and strobe control (trigger, ratio, and delay).

    Concept would be a 2013-release (if SONY could hold the migration back). Congrats to Canon for finally implementing RF triggering in the flashes. At least someone woke the heck up. That must have been a busy morning around there.

    Looks like the D800 is turning out to be just another run-of-the-mill release. Several instructors, here at the school, have yawned at the reported results... so, it would appear that the school won't be purchasing any in this FY. Hmmm, maybe I should put the brakes on and delay my departure until someone has something nice to say. Like I said, "what a mess." Just graduate and get out of this cyclone of stupidity.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 03-19-2012 at 10:18 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  2. #42
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    lol

    I genuinely laughed out loud at that post. Almost every sentence amused me.
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
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  3. #43
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    If it wasn't for pointless...

    it would have no point at all.

    Rooz, I guess there is a point of diminishing returns that is reached. You know, where you throw money at something and hope it gets better. In this case, it really did not get "markedly" better... yet, a release was due.

    If you look at the Canon 30D and 40D over the original 20D. Not enough advancement for many to jump from one to the next. You are seeing similar results in both the D700 to D800 migration and the EOS5DMkII to EOS5DMkIII. It just hurts your wallet for what little you would notice in your hand.

    Hey, it was so much less, this round... that SONY did not even bother to go there. They just abandoned the camera DSLR-a900 design and built something different, the enhanced version of the SLT-a77 - tada, the SLT-a99. Again... even that is a point of diminished returns and will not be available until... SURPRISE, it is! (<- It is hard to mark your calendar for that one, eh?) Everyone seems so... "overjoyed" with the SLT-a77, as you say, what could the full frame version provide that would make it so "markedly" different, that would be compelled to buy it over the a77?

    Now, follow me on this...
    1. If low-light continues to be "the dog in this fight"... what level of sensor have they designed that is going to deliver real IMPROVEMENT on this?
    2. In an SLT-design, 30% of the light through-the mirror is completely lost (in a puff of photon-energy) to augment the 24/7 autofocusing focusing system. You cannot shoot "mirror-up," anymore. The mirror does not move.


      CUT-AWAY View

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      .
      This early image in not totally accurate, but for the 70/30 illustration... it'll due

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      .
      .
    3. If the Nikon D800 (the mirror still lifts out of the way) did not "see" significant improvement over the 4-year old Nikon D700 with 100% of the light still going to the sensor ...


    My question is: Where does the SLT-a99 check in at with the sensor getting ONLY 70% of the light through the lens to the same type of sensor?

    Oh, I know, SONY has, just now, come up with "in-the-lens light-augmentation," right? Hardly. So, light amplification will have to take place in the camera, post-sensor... because amplification at the CMOS sensor has that inherent NOISE that we "users" all abhor. Arguably, if the sensor is not reacting better than the earlier one did with noise-handling, pumping it up another notch... does not sound like it is going be a terrific idea, either.

    If this "sacrifice to the light-God" was done, just for the for the sake of making movies with an interchangeable lens system... the still-market will leave... and that, mate, would be a diminished return, indeed. Oh my, do you also hear that rumble in the Minolta-graves?

    Ooooh, I am so excited... NOT. Laugh as you will... the financial drain is obvious, as corporate, the engineers and the users... still are not aligned and we still cannot get what we have asked for as professional or otherwise occupied photographers.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 03-19-2012 at 08:10 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Everyone seems so... "overjoyed" with the SLT-a77, as you say, what could the full frame version provide that would make it so "markedly" different, that would be compelled to buy it over the a77?
    Well, it provides just that Don, FF; it doesn't need anything else to justify it but....
    Those of us who prefer FF and who have all FF lenses will be happy.
    Not to be forgotten either is the stop and a bit ISO advantage over APS-C.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    My question is: Where does the SLT-a99 check in at with the sensor getting ONLY 70% of the light through the lens to the same type of sensor?
    You have to get over your obsession with this half a stop light loss red herring.
    Sure it's there but 95% of the time it's irrelevant and Sony has, in any case, improved Sensor sensitivity by more than that in recent times.
    You didn't choose not to buy your 70-400mm even though you lost a couple of stops to a decent prime, of course you didn't!
    It's a question of horses for courses, if you shoot a lot in the dark (Venues, Theatres and the like) then you probably need a D700 otherwise, be happy.
    Sure it's partly about video but the full time AF works just as well for stills and for burst shooting.
    Anyway we don't know what the A99 will bring apart from the obvious; I'm happy to wait and save up.

  5. #45
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    A stop...

    Peter,

    Through your own admission, you surrendered the stop of light advantage back through use of the SLT-mirror.

    Name:  a77_Panorama-w300mmf28.jpg
Views: 130
Size:  1.27 MB
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  6. #46
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    Sony A77
    Sony A580
    Sony A 100
    Maxxum 400si.
    Sony 18-70 Kit Lens
    Minolta AF 35-70
    Minolta AF 50 f/1.7
    Tamron 70-300 f/4-5.6 Di LD
    Tamron 60mm Macro
    Tamron 17-50 f/2.8
    Tamron 2x Converter
    Sony HVL-F42AM
    Quantaray 70-300 4.5-5.6 Macro
    Slingshot 200 Bag



    http://www.flickr.com/photos/22083244@N06/

    http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn219/sparkie1263/

  7. #47
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    Excellent addition...

    Frank,

    Thanks for adding this link to the discussion, it truly helps give a decent presentation and explanation of internals of the SLT-a77. Of course, they do overlook or gloss over that annoying 30% loss of image, due to the translucent-mirror. It is kind of like the 900-lb gorilla that everyone tends to ignore.

    Honestly... if they could deliver a "noiseless" low-light rendering... what a game we would have on or hands.

    Unfortunately, "noiseless" imaging was never really solved with 100% of the light available. Now... here's only 70% to do it with...



    I mean, has the "bass-ackwards" feel to it, does it not?

    And if it was not bad enough, here comes the SLT-a99 with the identical issue... only you get to spend an additional $1000 to enjoy it. Now, if there was a "low-light" mode, that specifically touched up the shots... that went beyond noise reduction... and picked up the image contrast. Hey, now that would be worth the investment -> electronically improving the all-electronic image. Agreed, it is not your typical optical photography... but, in the spirit of "give & take," which I seem to be detecting, here.

    Break out the candles and the stars... let's get started.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 03-19-2012 at 08:48 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  8. #48
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    How about they just try and invent a remote computer-camera that does it all, then you can just sit your ass on the lounge reviewing the shots that are beamed to your big screen tv and proudly exclaim "look what my camera did."
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Peter, Through your own admission, you surrendered the stop of light advantage back through use of the SLT-mirror.
    That's a mere half a stop Don and completely irrelevant most of the time.

    We're talking the difference between f2 and f2.3, F8 and f9 or a longer shutter 1/60th to 1/90th or whatever. That would be the case if Sony hadn't improved the sensitivity, but they did, so in reality you'll see nothing. Sure, you can argue that no mirror gives you a bit more ISO headroom but for the vast majority, it's a non issue and the benefits are obvious in terms of constant AF, reduced vibration and reduced noise.

    At the end of the day, the choice is yours.

  10. #50
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    In other words... right, Rooz?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    How about they just try and invent a remote computer-camera that does it all, then you can just sit your ass on the lounge reviewing the shots that are beamed to your big screen tv and proudly exclaim "look what my camera did."
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Simply put, the EVF LCD is an evaluative "screen shot" to judge your image on. The creative (or human) element has been "interpreted" and displayed for you, as the video processor manipulates the image. I suppose, it is creative in a whole other way... but, it is not my way... and that is where I feel something important and intangible is being lost. In a sense, it is as if the image has been "photoshop'd" by the camera, before it gets taken. In other words: "With a electronic viewfinder type device... THERE IS A DIGITAL CAMERA IN MY WAY!"

    **Shrug** I guess you had to be there, as the "genuine moment" is... diminished.

    Enjoy your newest digital cameras, folks. They are more so, now, than ever before. Next, you'll be telling me how the camera (by itself) took a trip, somewhere, and you were able to capture images from the comfort of your computer laptop. Yeah, that's experiencing the "moment of creativity." You know something, been there, already... and done that.
    @Rooz: I suppose something finally sunk in, huh?

    So what defines the photographer? Feeling the moment... or are we all destined to become photographic production designers... choosing the shots from a selection of offerings instead of the ones we were "physically there" to take.

    A thin line, I suspect.

    The OVF Mantra: See your image... be your image
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

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