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  1. #21
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    Question Costs involved

    Quote Originally Posted by SONYNUT View Post
    sony is loosing there butts against these guys...
    Steve,

    are you renting or owning these cameras. I was looking at the ALEXA ... $86,000. $2,000 a day for rental. That's a goose and a half.

    Have you looked at the NEXFS100UK?

    Name:  Zeiss lens on NEX100uk.jpg
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    Less than $6,000 for a truly "pro-level" camcorder with interchangeable lenses. Hmmm. I think SONY lowered the boom with that lil' gem.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 05-24-2011 at 07:20 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    the article and figures you linked to are for total camera sales. you do realise that right ?


    No total DSLR/interchangeable camera sales, I even stated that in my post which you then went and quoted, hence the 'DSLR/interchangeable' part of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    and lets also point out that none of this changes the fact that no sony dslr has been remarkable or a game changer. not-a-one and thats what i'm commenting on.
    I know you keep harping on with 'DSLR' which gives you an out regarding SLT's, but do you think they're a completely different camera? is a A55 a completely different camera from a A580? much like a hydrogen fuel celled car is still a car, or in your world is it a completely different mode of transport? it's an improvement on a 40+ year design.
    What if Canikon pick it up? will it be a game changer then?




    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    as for the a77, i ask again, SLT has broken with the a55 so what part of the a77 is gonna be a game changer ? and more to the point, will traditional dslr users want to switch to SLT ? that will be an interesting experiment.
    I personally don't think it'll be a game changer, will it be a better camera than it's competition? I won't know that until it comes out, going on the rumours (as that's all they currently are at the moment) it does look like it. I don't even think it'll convert Canikon fans over as it's for people that want to upgrade from lower end cameras (so already have lenses), at best it'll probably convince people to look at Sony when entering the DSLR market (A33/A55) knowing that when they upgrade they have a good option to go to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    lol, quite obviously nothing. canon and nikon are just pretenders obviously.
    No they've had 30 years to gather a rather large flock of sheep.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    nice excuse but pretty much a fail. the main issues with sony dslr's in the past have been this:

    1. their first incarnation was a heap of cr*p
    2. their next incarnation was very good but still not as good as the competition in any regard; but it did provide a platform for minolta users so it was a start.
    3. their next 4 or 5 releases of dslr's were ordinary and substandard in performance compared to the opposition. it wasn't until the latest batch that they produced cameras that could compete on performance with the big boys. this is what sony needs to do, churn out cameras that work and are real options, not just fanboy kleenex material.
    4. its not until very recently that the platform was supported by a better selection of decent glass and even then the majority of it, CZ aside, is just a sony badged minolta. their primes dont make much sense and they havent provided a clear upgrade path until recently.
    I'd like to read the article you got this info from? do you have a link? or is it just your opinion?



    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    ohhh....see, now i'm convinced. NOW i see what you mean !! i'm converted !!


    Great way to divert the topic away from the subject! Don wrote this:
    The α99 on September 9th? Whoa baby. That would be remarkable and let the market devastation begin.
    You then asked for evidence here:
    why would it be remarkable ? what would make it so ? you make all these bold statements but have zero evidence.
    I replied with that evidence (I even put it in bold for you):
    When asked about full-frame, he said Sony was still committed: 'When we started in DSLR we said that if we have DSLRs, a full-frame camera must be there. But we are working on a lot of products and there is a limit to our engineering capacity. The time will come when I can give more detail. When we announce a full-frame camera we want it to be a big step forward - another technological development might be needed so I say to people: Please stay tuned.'
    Where the hell did I mention anything about converting you? I simply gave you the 'evidence' you were asking for!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    you linked me to a sony marketing article ! lmfaooooo
    Ummmmm yeh so? actually I just realised my mistake, I should've asked you for a statement as it's perfectly clear you know more about what Sony are doing in their DSLR department than the Sony President of Personal Imaging & Sound Business Group does....

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Nasty View Post
    No total DSLR/interchangeable camera sales, I even stated that in my post which you then went and quoted, hence the 'DSLR/interchangeable' part of my post.
    the article is about TOTAL CAMERA sales.

    Sony challenges as camera world champion
    April 20, 2011: Sony has narrowed the gap on Canon as the world's top camera maker according to researcher IDC and Bloomberg Japan.


    and besides which, who cares and how is this relevant ? i already explained to you that sales are not a defining moment in the perforamnce of a dslr.

    I know you keep harping on with 'DSLR' which gives you an out regarding SLT's, but do you think they're a completely different camera? is a A55 a completely different camera from a A580? much like a hydrogen fuel celled car is still a car, or in your world is it a completely different mode of transport? it's an improvement on a 40+ year design.
    What if Canikon pick it up? will it be a game changer then?
    why would i want an out ? did you not read my last post ? i think SLT is a great example of innovation and a very smart move by sony. but no, i dont necessarily think its a game changer, its an innovation that looks very interesting but in its very early phases of development. i think m4/3 and NEX are far more marketable and really are game changers more so than SLT.

    If canon and nikon pick it up it wont change my opinion one iota.

    I personally don't think it'll be a game changer, will it be a better camera than it's competition? I won't know that until it comes out.
    so whay are you arguing then ? i dont think it will clearly be a better camera personally. sony have hyped every camera they have ever released and they invariabley end up being about middle of the road which is exactly where sony pitch their products to be...MIDDLE of the road at best but mostly to the lower end of the market.

    No they've had 30 years to gather a rather large flock of sheep.
    drivvel.

    I'd like to read the article you got this info from? do you have a link? or is it just your opinion?
    its my opinion based on what i've experienced, what the camera reviews are telling us and what somehwere like DxoMark scores the sensors. thats what a forum is about. i am quite capable of critical thinking and forming my own arguments; i dont need to quote articles or make up stories to substantiate my position.

    what part of what i wrote do you not agree with ?

    I replied with that evidence (I even put it in bold for you): Where the hell did I mention anything about converting you? I simply gave you the 'evidence' you were asking for!
    lol how is that evidence ? that is sony making a statement about what they are planning. what did you expect them to say ? "yeah going to release another camera and it'll be more of the same."

    surely you understand how this cannot be considered as evidence ? please tell me yu can understand the differences here...

    Ummmmm yeh so? actually I just realised my mistake, I should've asked you for a statement as it's perfectly clear you know more about what Sony are doing in their DSLR department than the Sony President of Personal Imaging & Sound Business Group does....
    what do you mean "yeah so ?" do you not recognise the limitations of quoting sony marketing when discussing their products to mount a convincing argument ? do you not understand how that severly comprimises the integrity of what you're saying ?

    look, i have no probem debating with anyone; but you need to bring more to the table than silly pictures, linking articles with no relevance and quoting sony's marketing machine. use some of your own judgement and lower your blood pressure a little, you're coming across as a hysterical child having a dummyspit.
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  4. #24
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    Thumbs up Pre-order the future

    "Rooz", the SLT-α77 is the very middle of a 'power shift' in the way we all will do imaging. Not only is it lower cost for more capability, but it also presents impressive growth from the fledgling introduction of 2010. 2012 is going to present a full frame camera unlike any other on the market. If that simple fact does not rattle your Nikon-based tree... well, we will call you "unimpressed."

    You may enjoy the NEX line of cameras. It is just another limited ILC of various shapes and sizes. An APS-C sensor-inside-a-lens-cap, slapped on the back of a lens. Obviously, incomplete for most DSLR users. Each aspect of photography has its merit, but you seem to simply want to saddle SONY as an "also ran." Well, I think they are running away with the crowd. Don't forget to raise your faithful Nikon and get a final snap of the disappearing masses from Camp Canikon.

    The numbers should eclipse this discussion and soon. July 7th, mate. Don't forget to place your pre-order for the future of photography.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    "Rooz", the SLT-α77 is the very middle of a 'power shift' in the way we all will do imaging. Not only is it lower cost for more capability, but it also presents impressive growth from the fledgling introduction of 2010. 2012 is going to present a full frame camera unlike any other on the market. If that simple fact does not rattle your Nikon-based tree... well, we will call you "unimpressed."

    You may enjoy the NEX line of cameras. It is just another limited ILC of various shapes and sizes. An APS-C sensor-inside-a-lens-cap, slapped on the back of a lens. Obviously, incomplete for most DSLR users. Each aspect of photography has its merit, but you seem to simply want to saddle SONY as an "also ran." Well, I think they are running away with the crowd. Don't forget to raise your faithful Nikon and get a final snap of the disappearing masses from Camp Canikon.

    The numbers should eclipse this discussion and soon. July 7th, mate. Don't forget to place your pre-order for the future of photography.
    So what you are saying is a couple of things...

    1. An SLT with a ff sensor is revolutionary but an aps-c SLT is not ? Nor is an aps-c sensor in a pocket sized package.
    2. You agree that you were wrong and i wad right about slt cameras when they were first released. Cos you were on your regular ranting rampage about toy cameras and i was impressed with the move.

    I'm actually more aligned and in agreeance with sony's strategy than you are.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    the article is about TOTAL CAMERA sales.

    Sony challenges as camera world champion
    April 20, 2011: Sony has narrowed the gap on Canon as the world's top camera maker according to researcher IDC and Bloomberg Japan.
    you seem to have a problem reading, I quoted the paragraph I was refering to in my original post, so lets try again, this time the part I keep quoting is in bold:

    Canon has so far chosen not to enter the mirrorless interchangeable category. Nonetheless it held 44.5 percent of the interchangeable/DSLR market last year.

    Nikon followed with 29.8 percent, and Sony held 11.9 percent, according to the data.
    Hopefully that helps you see it this time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    its my opinion based on what i've experienced, what the camera reviews are telling us and what somehwere like DxoMark scores the sensors. thats what a forum is about. i am quite capable of critical thinking and forming my own arguments; i dont need to quote articles or make up stories to substantiate my position.
    Which is extactly what you did, make up your own opinions based on nothing. Yes I link what I'm refering to so everyone knows where i'm getting my info from, I do read ALOT even DxoMark, which suprisingly shoots down your theory of Sony having a MIDDLE of the range camera ==>Here which 'shock horror' has your beloved nikon D7000 and D5100 on an even score as the Sony A580, so does nikon make MIDDLE of the range cameras too? because Sonys are aren't they?

    Here's another Sony A580 Vs Nikon D90

    And another Sony A580 Vs Canon 550D

    I did all this homework before selecting my camera, I know what all the reviews have said about these cameras, so I'm more than interested what reviews you looked at to base your 'opinion' on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    look, i have no probem debating with anyone; but you need to bring more to the table than silly pictures, linking articles with no relevance and quoting sony's marketing machine. use some of your own judgement and lower your blood pressure a little, you're coming across as a hysterical child having a dummyspit.
    Debatings fine, prove me wrong, but don't just use your opinion to try and claim you're right when even the information (or websites) you claim back up your story prove YOU wrong.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Nasty View Post
    you seem to have a problem reading, I quoted the paragraph I was refering to in my original post, so lets try again, this time the part I keep quoting is in bold: Hopefully that helps you see it this time.
    already answered this nonsense. i'm not going to revisit your errors. and besides, again the point is that it has no relevance to this discussion for a number of reasons. firstly sales are not that relevant to camera performance, pentax sales are pretty ordinary buttheir latest cameras are gems. second cos the figures includes the nex and slt cameras which sell more and are not dslr's which is what i was originally talking about and are also intended to be lower end high volume sellers. and thirdly its still only 11%, so hardly a great figure when a big chunk of that is NEX. which...for the THIRD time i think is a great sony idea.

    I
    did all this homework before selecting my camera, I know what all the reviews have said about these cameras, so I'm more than interested what reviews you looked at to base your 'opinion' on.
    quite simple really...you need to READ and UNDERSTAND ok. so this is what i posted...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    1. their first incarnation was a heap of cr*p
    2. their next incarnation was very good but still not as good as the competition in any regard; but it did provide a platform for minolta users so it was a start.
    3. their next 4 or 5 releases of dslr's were ordinary and substandard in performance compared to the opposition. it wasn't until the latest batch that they produced cameras that could compete on performance with the big boys. this is what sony needs to do, churn out cameras that work and are real options, not just fanboy kleenex material.
    4. its not until very recently that the platform was supported by a better selection of decent glass and even then the majority of it, CZ aside, is just a sony badged minolta. their primes dont make much sense and they havent provided a clear upgrade path until recently.
    what part of this is not true ? cos this is what you are debating with me. the stuff you linked about the a580 is the latest batch of DSLR, as i clearly pointed out in point #3 of the above post. as i said...it wasn't until their LATEST batch of DSLR that they could compete.

    so lets go back to the beginning. what part of my assertions do you not agree with ? and dont just focus on the camera, understand that people buy systems, not cameras.

    do nikon make middle of the road cameras ? of course they do. they also make bottom of the food chain cameras and top of the foodchain cameras. sony does not do the latter, nor will they EVER do the latter cos that is not their business model. it has not been their business model in any consumer electronics market they have so far entered, nor will it be for photography.

    Debatings fine, prove me wrong, but don't just use your opinion to try and claim you're right when even the information (or websites) you claim back up your story prove YOU wrong.
    not only have i proved you wrong. i've proved you cant read and cant get past you're tantrums,

    there is not one thing in my original or subsequent post that is incorrect.

    has sony made a game changing camera ?
    by your own admission, no.

    has any sony dslr achieved high volume sales in context with the rest of the market ?
    even the article you linked to suggests not.

    has sony produced a "remarkable" camera ?
    no. there is no remarkable camera there. and no matter what sony's marketing material you quote, it simply is not true unless by remarkable you mean bang-for-buck in which case sony has some compelling offers.

    in fact, not only have you been unable to stick to point and discuss this intelligently, you are violently agreeing with me on most points but cant even see it. no this is not about what i post...this is about you being unable to get over the fact that i'm not a sony fanboy. if you were legitimately interested in discussing this you would have more reason to argue with don than with me considering the basis of your assertions are on the back of what he considers to be toy cameras beneath him.

    now toddle off and have your tantrum until you can form a cohesive argument. when you come back, perhaps you can calm down and try and stick to topic without ranting.
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  8. #28
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    Again you've got nothing but your opinions, you're a nikon fan on a Sony forum, you're trolling.

  9. #29
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    ie: you got nothing. consider yourself pwned.
    (i hope i used that term right...i'm all hip and stuff lol)
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  10. #30
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    Indications are that the A77 will be released on 7/7.
    Darin Wessel
    α 900
    Zooms: Tamron SP AF70-200mm f2.8 Di LD Macro; Sigma 28-90mm D macro, Konica-Minolta 18-70 f3.5-5.6
    Primes: Minolta 28mm f2.8; Sony 50mm f1.4
    Minolta RC-1000 remote commander

    Film:
    Calumet Cambo CC400 4x5 View Camera
    YashikaMat 6x6 TLR (other accessories)
    Minolta Maxxum 7000 w/ Minolta 35-80mm f/4-5.6 & Minolta 2800 flash
    Minolta Maxxum 5000i & Vivitar 728 AFM flash
    What's next???

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