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  1. #11
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    While I am not too keen on incorporating video ...

    Still photography is still my vote with my camera. Call it ... concentrating on the specifics. Adding cinematography just kind of muddies the waters.

    "Rooz", using your contention, the Nikon D3x was a serious development ... and I have noticed the rush for all the students in the school to buy one. Oops, my bad. That's not quite true. They are electing for the D7000 or Canon EOS 7D. There was something said about coming up with $7-8000 that is a little prohibitive. The α700 was the fulfillment of a promise to the Minolta faithful. It provided a camera that was complete and could compete. It is up to the user to make it sing. That part has always been key to the argument.

    You have to admit, for affordable cameras, SONY has been able to chop, not "hack" away at the still photography market is remarkable. They went in with putting a good edge on an "old axe" and blazed a solid trail. Then, with the advent of the "chainsaw" division (SLT & NEX), have begun establishing a noticeable presence in the market. All they need is a New Axe ... one that is sharp enough to take on and take down the bigger trees. Affordable photography will level the playing field.

    New big axe -> 2012? Perhaps.

    The α99 on September 9th? Whoa baby. That would be remarkable and let the market devastation begin.

    I not saying, "All hail SONY"... but, then again, why complain? They may be the only keeping prices from going the way of Hasselblad. That, dear friend... would not be good. Competition is.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 05-23-2011 at 07:30 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

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  2. #12
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    Rooz, you're right I think about no epic changes. New technology can only be introduced once, after that it's consolidation and improvement. There are some big question though, or unknowns if you like.

    24MP Sensor.
    We know that Sony have made a step in their Sensor technology by looking at the A580; nothing betters it in APS-C at this point in time. Is that transferable to the smaller photo sites dictated by 24MP (if correct) and how is it impacted by the half stop of light lost at the mirror? Personally, I think that the loss at the mirror is a decent trade off for the potentially quieter operation and what amounts to permanent MLU. There are so many rumours flying about really high ISO performance but I don't buy it for one moment. If the 24MP turns out to be correct, then I'll be satisfied if the ISO performance comes up to the standard of the A580.

    AF
    We've seen steady AF improvements in the A33 through A580 plus the firmware release for the A900 so I'm expecting something new with the A77. I doubt they can catch Nikon but I don't think that matters so long as the goalposts are seen to be moving within the Sony world.

    OLED EVF
    This is the big question mark. It has to be a real advance on the A55 EVF or the camera will be roundly slated and crippled at birth. This has the potential to be an "Epic change" if it proves to be an acceptable alternative to the OVF at this level (a big ask).

    Ok, maybe you're right and "the biggest question is whether or not traditional SLR users will switch to SLT on the back of the a77?" We won't know until we see the camera and perhaps not even then. I don't think there will be switchers from CaNikon but maybe existing Sony users will be persuaded not to switch away. Traditional users are more concerned with IQ (ghosting and coma issues) than good Video and fripperies like smile detect and panorama. Nonetheless, having the best Video implementation, better frame rates, permanent MLU count for a lot and I think Sony have a good chance of hanging on to their user base and New Users are definitely swayed in a big way by New Tech.

    Interesting times, I think.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Still photography is still my vote with my camera. Call it ... concentrating on the specifics. Adding cinematography just kind of muddies the waters.
    dont quite get the relevance of you mentioning cinematography.

    "Rooz", using your contention, the Nikon D3x was a serious development ... and I have noticed the rush for all the students in the school to buy one. Oops, my bad. That's not quite true. They are electing for the D7000 or Canon EOS 7D. There was something said about coming up with $7-8000 that is a little prohibitive.
    dont know how that relates to my contention either. and dont understand yoiur anaology either. wtf do d3x sales to students have to to do with anything. i can only assume what you are implying is that the sales of the d3x are so small that it indicates it is not a breakthru or successful camera.

    if that is the case, let me answer this very simply. the d3x is like the rolls royce of the industry, it is not a camera that is intended to sell lots not is its success to be measured by volume. least of all with a bunch of students in a post processing course. success is measured in the context of the product. and the context of the a700 and other sony low end models is high volume sales and that has not materialised

    it is no more or less prohibitive than any other high end consumer product at the top of the food chain.

    The α700 was the fulfillment of a promise to the Minolta faithful. It provided a camera that was complete and could compete. It is up to the user to make it sing. That part has always been key to the argument.
    yes, which is why i said it was important to minolta users.

    You have to admit, for affordable cameras, SONY has been able to chop, not "hack" away at the still photography market is remarkable. They went in with putting a good edge on an "old axe" and blazed a solid trail.
    no, i see nothing remarkable at all. what has been remarkable ? there hasnt been a single ground breaking thing sony have done to date in dslr. in fact i would suggest that from my POV the one place i thought sony would really have a massive impact in was in body IS. i thought once that concept got out to a broader audience than oly or pentax could capture, canikon woudl respond by making sure that every lens they produced had VR in it. guess how many new lens' canikon have released with VR since sony came into the market ? 2. kit lens's. every other lens has either retained VR from pre-sony days or not had VR put in.

    to me thats a sign that the big boys dont regard inbody IS as a particualry significant marketing edge to middle-high end consumers. and why would they think that ? cos in body IS just hasnt made any inroads into that end of the market.

    Then, with the advent of the "chainsaw" division (SLT & NEX), have begun establishing a noticeable presence in the market.
    SLT ? not so much,. NEX, hell yeah. great concept. and if i'm not mistaken a conept that you ridiculed and i praised at the time of release.

    All they need is a New Axe ... one that is sharp enough to take on and take down the bigger trees. Affordable photography will level the playing field.
    i just dont know what the new axe will be. why is the a77 a new axe ?

    The α99 on September 9th? Whoa baby. That would be remarkable and let the market devastation begin.
    why would it be remarkable ? what would make it so ? you make all these bold statements but have zero evidence.

    I not saying, "All hail SONY"... but, then again, why complain? They may be the only keeping prices from going the way of Hasselblad. That, dear friend... would not be good. Competition is.
    well, they're not the only ones keeping the prices down. thats a nonsense. prices of all consumer products, including photography, have steadily been falling whether or not sony is a player in the market or not. its not BAD to have sony in the market, its a very good thing but you are certianly overplaying their role...particualrly now with a company liek samsung wanting a piece of the action.
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  4. #14
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    Thumbs up The need for... speed

    The Koreans have their place at the technological table. They have fought long and hard to get a seat and there really is no reason they cannot play. Samsung has made inroads to develop their own line of lenses (probably upgraded Samyang and Pentax designs) and stand alone without being slave to other manufacturer's glass (K-mount). Then again, lest we forget SIGMA and their aspirations to marry their own glass to their new Foveon sensor bodies.

    Everybody wants a piece of the pie ... and why not? Nikon's knees have been buckled by the Japanese misfortune. Moving swiftly can secure marketshare, as needs require.

    SONY still has not committed to a superior, market-leading DSLR (which is unfortunate), still catering to mass-marketing and not fully focused on meeting the requested need of its advanced end-user. Either they do not want the burden of supporting "the DSLR crown" or simply have lost a step by allowing the "Mind of Minolta" to fade away. Being the SONY-forum, speculation abounds and it is in OUR own best interest to raise these concerns. SONY Corporate has to heed the call, eventually. The business needs to grow and strengthen by having a "top dog" in the fight. The 2012 Summer Olympic Games will soon arrive... and the need for speed, once again, will be overwhelming.

    Name:  2012-Olympics-Logo-small.jpg
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    In fact, I am counting on it.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 05-23-2011 at 11:26 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  5. #15
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    you have missed your calling. you absolutely should have been a politician.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    and the context of the a700 and other sony low end models is high volume sales and that has not materialised
    Really? you do know Sony holds 3rd spot in the DSLR/interchangeable market right? Source: here - these figures include camcorders aswell as cameras, but this paragraph is where I got my info from:

    Canon has so far chosen not to enter the mirrorless interchangeable category. Nonetheless it held 44.5 percent of the interchangeable/DSLR market last year.

    Nikon followed with 29.8 percent, and Sony held 11.9 percent, according to the data.
    And they expect to reach 15% this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    no, i see nothing remarkable at all. what has been remarkable ? there hasnt been a single ground breaking thing sony have done to date in dslr.
    You forget about the SLT's? I get the feeling you hold yourself in high esteem, infact higher than Time Magazine for some reason.

    But then what has Nikon added to the DSLR market in the last 30 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    in fact i would suggest that from my POV the one place i thought sony would really have a massive impact in was in body IS. i thought once that concept got out to a broader audience than oly or pentax could capture, canikon woudl respond by making sure that every lens they produced had VR in it. guess how many new lens' canikon have released with VR since sony came into the market ? 2. kit lens's. every other lens has either retained VR from pre-sony days or not had VR put in.

    to me thats a sign that the big boys dont regard inbody IS as a particualry significant marketing edge to middle-high end consumers. and why would they think that ? cos in body IS just hasnt made any inroads into that end of the market.
    It has nothing to do with the "big boys" disregarding inbody IS, Sony has two main problems when it comes to selling their DSLR's, one is the 'sheep mentality' of people entering the DSLR market "I want a Canon because Davo down the pub said they f*ckin rock", and the guy behind the counter only knowing what he uses, so pushes people towards that brand (usually Canikon).
    I had the perfect example the other day at Harvey Norman (for you non Australian's it's a huge retail chain here), while I was waiting for my battery a guy turned up and wanted a DSLR, had no idea what he wanted but it had to be "a good one", the guy behind the counter pulled out the Nikon D90 and told him "this was the best and the other two brands weren't any good", it's at this time I butted in and asked the guy if I could show him something, I then asked the salesman to put the 550D, D90 and A55 on the counter, then started to show what each camera does, and what the Sony does over the other 3 (6fps with auto focus, panarama shooting, movable rear screen, inbuilt HDR, inbody IS - and told him it can save him up to $1000 when he starts looking at the larger zooms etc), then pointed at the Nikon control dial and asked him which one meant 'shutter', which was followed by "I don't know", then pointing at the Sony control dial and asking the same question, guess which camera he bought?

    Oops missed one

    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    why would it be remarkable ? what would make it so ? you make all these bold statements but have zero evidence.
    How's this?

    last paragraph....

    When asked about full-frame, he said Sony was still committed: 'When we started in DSLR we said that if we have DSLRs, a full-frame camera must be there. But we are working on a lot of products and there is a limit to our engineering capacity. The time will come when I can give more detail. When we announce a full-frame camera we want it to be a big step forward - another technological development might be needed so I say to people: Please stay tuned.'
    Last edited by Buck Nasty; 05-24-2011 at 03:37 AM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Nasty View Post
    Really? you do know Sony holds 3rd spot in the DSLR/interchangeable market right?
    the article and figures you linked to are for total camera sales. you do realise that right ? then there's the "expectation" article. who cares about expectations ? and lets also point out that none of this changes the fact that no sony dslr has been remarkable or a game changer. not-a-one and thats what i'm commenting on.

    You forget about the SLT's?
    ahhh...no i didn't. i am only commenting on DSLR, not SLT. and in case you hadn't noticed in your little tantrum, i'm the biggest supporter there is of the nex models and to a lesser degree SLT. much more so than all of the sony owners here bar peter.

    as for the a77, i ask again, SLT has broken with the a55 so what part of the a77 is gonna be a game changer ? and more to the point, will traditional dslr users want to switch to SLT ? that will be an interesting experiment.

    I get the feeling you hold yourself in high esteem, infact higher than Time Magazine for some reason.
    yeah...ahh...so ?

    But then what has Nikon added to the DSLR market in the last 30 years?
    lol, quite obviously nothing. canon and nikon are just pretenders obviously.

    It has nothing to do with the "big boys" disregarding inbody IS, Sony has two main problems when it comes to selling their DSLR's, one is the 'sheep mentality' of people entering the DSLR market "I want a Canon because Davo down the pub said they f*ckin rock", and the guy behind the counter only knowing what he uses, so pushes people towards that brand (usually Canikon).
    nice excuse but pretty much a fail. the main issues with sony dslr's in the past have been this:

    1. their first incarnation was a heap of cr*p
    2. their next incarnation was very good but still not as good as the competition in any regard; but it did provide a platform for minolta users so it was a start.
    3. their next 4 or 5 releases of dslr's were ordinary and substandard in performance compared to the opposition. it wasn't until the latest batch that they produced cameras that could compete on performance with the big boys. this is what sony needs to do, churn out cameras that work and are real options, not just fanboy kleenex material.
    4. its not until very recently that the platform was supported by a better selection of decent glass and even then the majority of it, CZ aside, is just a sony badged minolta. their primes dont make much sense and they havent provided a clear upgrade path until recently.

    I had the perfect example the other day at Harvey Norman ...then pointing at the Sony control dial and asking the same question, guess which camera he bought?
    dont know and don't care. an anecdotal story which means nothing, says nothing and proves nothing other than Don is not a one-off. i suspect its just a made up story anyway.

    Oops missed one

    How's this?

    last paragraph....
    ohhh....see, now i'm convinced. NOW i see what you mean !! i'm converted !! you linked me to a sony marketing article ! lmfaooooo
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  8. #18
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    "Rooz"... even Pharaoh mocked destiny. You've done nothing new, here, yourself.

    The writing is on the wall and I am sure SONY will "keep on keepin' on", regardless of your continually badgering of the facts. I am, for the most part, enjoying the thundering fun we are having with all this. Despite the apparent need for "untrained" others flocking to Canikon, stepping away from the masses gets you noticed in a crowd. "Oh, wait a minute, mate ... that's not a Canon? SONY? I didn't know they made DSLRs."

    Yeah, I admit they do need a better message about it. Maybe in the onslaught of SONY movie productions, while people are waiting for their favorite flick to be presented. How about the Olympics?

    I think that once it gets out there... click... it's over.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 05-24-2011 at 10:16 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  9. #19
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    sony is loosing there butts against these guys...
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  10. #20
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    I'll take one of them Steve.


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