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  1. #1
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    Exclamation New Thread - A new, improved Full Frame DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post

    vac·il·late (vs-lt)
    intr.v. vac·il·lat·ed, vac·il·lat·ing, vac·il·lates
    1. To sway from one side to the other; oscillate.
    2. To swing indecisively from one course of action or opinion to another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    lol better for everyone bar sony you mean. if sony followed your strategic direction they would still be languishing a mile behind everyone and continue to be a laughing stock of the industry.

    sony's NEX and smaller EVIL cameras, which you thought were a joke and a bad decision, has been the single most important decision sony imaging has made since its inception and has single-handedly turned sony into a viable interchangeable lens company.
    Decisions, decisions. The α900/α850 was a "final print" to the Minolta-prototype design of the Minolta 9D with some modernization thrown in. Since that time, there has been no effective UPGRADE to the SONY high-end line, concerning this type of camera. All we have are Full Frame cameras that are STILL badly in need of an ISO upgrade/noise fix.

    Dropping down to a NEX, SLT or α500-series camera is not a real solution, so I am not sure where you are coming from on this point, Rooz. Admittedly, if you are a Nikon user or Canon user ... needing to break out and make a move up in anti-shake technology, they certainly are a viable alternative. If they want to be an industry-leader in having the high-end lens mountable to everything they make, that's fine, but I, for one, still need a substantial improvement in just my "STILL MAKING" Full Frame camera ... and I do not have one.

    That's where I am coming from and have been. I thought I was pretty clear about it all. I guess if I wanted to make cinematographic images ... ahh, but I do not.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 02-06-2011 at 10:13 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr® & Sdi

  2. #2
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    I think we have to seperate the argument here. I'm not commenting on the photographic merit of such decisions. Simply on the business model of a very clear directional change from sony.

    You're intonnations were that these newer models were that they were poor business decisions from sony and a terrible strategic move. I couldnt disagree more. As i said at the time, it was probably the smartest thong sony has done since day 1.

    Sony will not in the short term be a player in the pro market so if you are expecting canikon performance and options, think again, they will always fall short cos sonyvis wedded to a differnt plan. Value for money, range, acessories and gadgets. Thats sonys MO, always has been, always will be. Look at any niche electronic range they have ever made...say amplifiers...they are never gomna play with the big boys although they market themselves as such to unassuming and uneducated consumers...high end dslr...same go. If you are waiting for sony to be a leader at the top end you are waiting in vein. They never will be and thats cos that is not part of their business model. Never has been. Sure they may announce some competitors to the top end but they wont BE top end. Imho they will not be a leader in anything other than price and value for money. Dont take my word for it, actions speak louder than words and one only has to look at sonys releases to get some very clear messages from the company on their direction.

    The nex was a massive step, MASSIVE. It took them out of the rat race and brought home a hugely growing market well ahead of the tired old canon compact options and the utterly pathetic nikon fare. That decision underpins everything they hope to do in the top end. If it wssnt for that and the income/ sales/ exposure it gernerates the sony imagin dept may well have died an ugly death.

    So i say again, in the context of sales and of strategic imperative, sony has a full house right now, while the big 2 are bluffing on 2 pair. In the context of photographic equipment i think they are non-starter in the top end, a 2nd tier player in the middle end and, a real contender at the lower cost end.
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  3. #3
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    and just in case you were wondering ...

    my view on the nex originally...
    http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47703

    on the the newer SLT's
    http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48138

    smart moves by sony and evidence of that is their sales since these annoucements which have been outstanding.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Decisions, decisions. The α900/α850 was a "final print" to the Minolta-prototype design of the Minolta 9D with some modernization thrown in. Since that time, there has been no effective UPGRADE to the SONY high-end line, concerning this type of camera. All we have are Full Frame cameras that are STILL badly in need of an ISO upgrade/noise fix..........
    Don, you make some good contributions to this forum but sometimes you just get it plain wrong.
    "no effective upgrade"?? No, the A900 is the same camera it was at introduction in 2008 and a damn good camera too. You would expect a long life cycle with this class (and price level) of camera and it's only been three years.
    "STILL badly in need of an ISO upgrade/noise fix"?? I don't think so. The camera is good up to ISO1600 and, considering the high pixel density, performs pretty well and I'm not talking about out of camera JPEGS.
    If you want higher ISO then you need to consider lower res alternatives from the big two cos you ain't going to get it from Sony. Yes, there is improved Sensor technology, we see that in the A580/Nex and so on but Sony are definitely looking at more pixels rather than less.
    The biggest need for improvement is the AF module, the centre points are excellent but the rest are, not so good. I'm sure the next FF camera (2012/13 at best) will go a long way to fixing this and will probably have around 54MP and come without an AA filter. You'll need b***** good lenses though to get the best out of it. The sensor will be better for noise but any big improvement in high ISO will come about by stacking multiple images.

    Rooz, I don't think you have it right either although you make some good points.
    Sony were around 30% market share in Europe before NEX and SLT, I don't know where they are now. OK, that would be predominantly at the lower end but that's where future sales are coming from.
    What is clear is that Sony are marching to a different tune to the others and they have the clout to make big changes. Ultimately they have the capacity to trash CaNikon unless those companies divest themselves of legacy technology and innovate. Nikon will probably be ok because they are primarily an Optical company anyway and those needs will not go away anytime soon.
    Whilst the DSLR is probably good for a few years yet it will become a Dodo first in the Sony world.
    The SLT is just a transitional camera, as an innovative electronics company, Sony will move away from the complicated (read expensive to manufacture) DSLR towards (FF) EVIL with global shutter and on-sensor PDAF. I don't know how long it will take Sony to come up with a viable top end camera like that but I fully expect them to do it, and won't it be great.
    Imagine it, high res, lightweight, silent, 24 FPS, 60FPS in burst, water cooled,,, just joking. Then there's the software stuff like Panorama, smile recognition, eye recognition (for wildlife), image stacking for HDR, image stacking for high iso,,, ahhh, add your own.

    Of course it's not all good news for those of us with lots of quality Minolta/Sony A-Mount glass but that's the price of progress, I'm afraid.
    I'm not worrying though. I expect my stuff to last until I'm no longer in a position to use it.

  5. #5
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    Question What part of "Room for improvement" are we missing here?

    Getting more mileage out of my gear is something I did become very use to with Minolta. My four Maxxum 9000 SLRs are a testament to milking the gear. But, with today's technology, you cannot do that and remain truly competative. I do not like being "limited" by the response of my camera and if there is any chance that the manufacturer can make the design "BETTER" ... I say step up and DO IT! It is an implied and expected obligation of the manufacturer to their respective customers, if you plan on continuing the business.

    The Full Frame sensor has every possibility of that happening. I would like to see it and soon, as I suspect would the rest of the receptive SONY/Minolta congress. In the immortal words of Larry, the Cable-Guy: "Get 'er done."

    Yes, I can get good stuff out of the α850. That, my friends, is not the point. There is a surge in improved sensor design and the high-end Full Frame deserves to be a part of it. I suggest that the investment in glass, alone, DEMANDS it! SONY took over the A-mount and they are not sharing it. They want a buying public. How far out on a limb is it to suggest they need to give the buying public a reason to stick with it?
    Last edited by DonSchap; 02-07-2011 at 07:33 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr® & Sdi

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peekayoh View Post
    Rooz, I don't think you have it right either although you make some good points.
    well, given none of us are sony board executives i doubt any of us have got it totally right, these are only opinions after all. i dont see too many points we differ on though.

    Sony were around 30% market share in Europe before NEX and SLT, I don't know where they are now. OK, that would be predominantly at the lower end but that's where future sales are coming from.
    30% market share in Europe ? i dont think so. not in interchangable lens cameras. i'd be surprised if before nex they were more than 15%. corporate claims and/ or targets are not results. and quite frankly, a 30% market share sounds like a bunch of nonsense if you looked at it rationally or even just used yoru eyes to look around at what cameras people are holding.

    What is clear is that Sony are marching to a different tune to the others and they have the clout to make big changes. Ultimately they have the capacity to trash CaNikon unless those companies divest themselves of legacy technology and innovate. Nikon will probably be ok because they are primarily an Optical company anyway and those needs will not go away anytime soon.
    no actually, they dont have the capacity to do that...nor would they want to. its not just about the size of the company and their cash reserves. the biggest and baddest companies dont always win, and in this particualr niche market, that just aint gonna happen.

    so i use the amplifier example again. hell, pick speakers even. sony are much bigger than NAD or Boston Acoustics but they will never eliminate such premium players from the market mostly cos they dont care what they do. sony are happy to play in the market where they make the most money...not necessarily make the best product by category.

    Whilst the DSLR is probably good for a few years yet it will become a Dodo first in the Sony world. The SLT is just a transitional camera, as an innovative electronics company, Sony will move away from the complicated (read expensive to manufacture) DSLR towards (FF) EVIL with global shutter and on-sensor PDAF. I don't know how long it will take Sony to come up with a viable top end camera like that but I fully expect them to do it, and won't it be great.
    dont agree. well, we partially agree. there is no question that the biggest part of the market will be that bottom end, but there will always be a place for larger cameras. why ? cos people use big lens'. you can make the body of a camera as small as you like it but thats not gonna be much good once you whack a 70-200/2.8 onto it. or god forbid a 300/2.8 and up.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Getting more mileage out of my gear is something I did become very use to with Minolta. My four Maxxum 9000 SLRs are a testament to milking the gear. But, with today's technology, you cannot do that and remain truly competative.
    actually Don thats not testament to milking your gear. milking your gear for all its worth appleis when that is your primary tool, not just cos you still own it. your not milking any of your older minolta bodies, they are just dust collectors. not a bad thing at all. but that is not in fact what the phrase milking your gear is all about.

    I do not like being "limited" by the response of my camera and if there is any chance that the manufacturer can make the design "BETTER" ... I say step up and DO IT!
    your camera isnt holding you back at all, your ability is. could it be better ? sure. but is it limiting you right now ? no.

    It is an implied and expected obligation of the manufacturer to their respective customers, if you plan on continuing the business. Yes, I can get good stuff out of the α850. That, my friends, is not the point. There is a surge in improved sensor design and the high-end Full Frame deserves to be a part of it. I suggest that the investment in glass, alone, DEMANDS it! SONY took over the A-mount and they are not sharing it. They want a buying public. How far out on a limb is it to suggest they need to give the buying public a reason to stick with it?
    which gets back to my original point. sony is not the manufacurer that is going to give you what you ae demanding. the vast majority of the buying public dont want what you want and sony is catering to the masses, not the smaller more elite photographic community. so you've backed the wrong horse buddy.

    the buying public make their demands known by sales. the rush in sales is not at the pointy end. its down the lower end of the market and it is precisely that demand that sony are and will continue to meet.
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  7. #7
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    Don,

    As a guy in the Olympus camp I see similar things happening there. Clearly Oly thinks that mirrorless is the future. So I am now given only one upgrade path, the E5, and there is no entry level to help bring in new full 4/3rds users.

    Maybe we need some 'new' company to come up with a body with interchangeable mounts so you could put on most any brand lens. Then we can treat the camera body like the 'film' it has become. Think something along the lines of the Ricoh modular camera, only just the body to lens mount interface would change. It will never happen, but maybe some 2nd tier company will do it. Heck, there were always those Fuji and Kodak SLR's that used other companies lens mounts.

  8. #8
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    Exclamation What annoys me most ...

    ... is that there really needs to be a "universal" lens adapter set, that will allow cross-over electrical and physical operation between all the camera manufacturers and all the lenses out there. Now, that I know everyone would run out and buy... then ... then ...


    LET THE BEST BODY WIN! He said with a grin
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr® & Sdi

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    It is an implied and expected obligation of the manufacturer to their respective customers, if you plan on continuing the business.
    No Don, they don't. Their only obligation is to their stockholders. They will continue to go for the "low end" because that's where the volume is. They make money there. I don't think they actually make any money from the 850 or 900.Like Rooz said, they'll never compete at the high end.

    For what you want, you picked the wrong system. You should have either stayed with Canon or gone with Nikon. Canon and Nikon have been doing what you want from Sony for years now. So my question is: was it really worth it to have anti-shake in the body?

    J.R.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    ... is that there really needs to be a "universal" lens adapter set, that will allow cross-over electrical and physical operation between all the camera manufacturers and all the lenses out there. Now, that I know everyone would run out and buy... then ... then ...
    unfortuantelty for us, that will never happen. but damn me if we cant wish it to be true. id love to get that ZA135.
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