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Thread: Photokino

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    This point-by-point assault is getting nowhere.
    the point by point "assault" is to disprove every untrue statement you make and show it up for what it really is...rhetoric without substance.

    Rooz, if you have a true "SIDE" to present, make it so. In so far as your tear down of my contentions go ... it seems almost arbitrary. I have tried to present a side that says ... keep the two separate. Like church and state. Video may seem like photography, but it is intrinsically different.
    yes, as i said before you have argued it and failed. becasue you cannot say WHY to keep them seperate. if you said...i think movies in dslr is a useless feature i would never use...then there is no arguement. but your not saying that at all. you want to deprive others of their choices based on your arguements which make no sense at all.

    you actually have NO logical arguement. just saying "you should never mix the 2" over and over and over again doesnt make your baseless argument more valid. it just makes it baseless and annoying.

    Homogenizing (STILL/MOVIE) is nothing more than torturing your DSLR in ways it really was not designed to do.
    who are you to say what it was and wasnt designed to do ?

    There are plenty of alternative ways to do this and do it CORRECTLY,
    answer my questions, what video camera gives you dslr like low light performance ? wide angle lens ? dof ? the fact is that dslr's do video better than video cameras do stills. so if you want one thing to hold when doing something, this is the way to go.

    in fact in alot of conditions, dslr takes better video than video cameras.

    without heaping this kind of nonsensical drama into your camera's workload.
    there is no drama. you;re inventing it.

    It has nothing to do with age or experience,
    no, thats right. it doesnt. which is why i called you up on it.

    although having that view certainly allows the argument to be reflective.
    which enables you to do what exactly. this is technology which moves FORWARD. you are talking about looking BACKWARDS.

    As a purist, I am happy with the SONY Full Frames not having to share this "burden" of obligation on the camera.
    whats the burden if you dont use it ? stop sidestepping the questions and just answer.

    There is no expectation of a MOVIE with the α850 or α900. When and if it gets used ... I know when I yank out the CF card or Memory Stick ... they are not full of animated, poorly laid out or poorly lit/composed footage, taking up all my shot space!
    so you want to blame the camera capability for the user's poor ability ? again, you are not making a rational argument here.

    In essence, what I am saying is: If someone wants footage ... get a "footage-maker." Leave the DSLR alone and do not tempt people to do with it what they should not.
    i know WHAT your saying, you;re just not providing a rational argument as to WHY. do not tempt people ? lol wtf is up with that ? dont you live in the "land of the free ?" you know where people are enabled to make their ownb choices ? your argument is just laughable.


    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    I suppose tucking the convenience into a low-end camera makes some sense, but corrupting the integrity of the Full Frame DSLR for the sake of a cheap video solution ... seems rather ludicrous. When you are spending that kind of money on something ... you are probably a purist, to some degree.
    a purist ? what is a purist exactly ? oh yeah thats right...the same purists that objected to AF ? or metering ? or TTL ? or digital ? or photoshop ? the same purists who would scoff at a "SONY" .

    The argument stands that sleazing your images through a Translucent Mirror solution would be ... unnecessarily silly for 100% of your work, just to have a 1% (maybe) chance need for making a MOVIE!
    i didnt say anything about SLT. they are one form...sonys form. dslr is what im referring to cos thats what i'll use and there is no comprmise at all to photos. none. zero. zip. zilch. nada.

    I suggest that it would be better to have the new SLT-α77 on hand as not only a "backup", but your movie-maker (if you must) ... it would be a lot cheaper, too
    i dont want to take 2 devices. i get to have a choice and so do you. your choice is just dont use the video mode.

    Wrecking a 100% of my work ...
    how does it wreck your work ?

    for a simplistic movie feature ... borders on cutting your nose off to spite your face.
    how so ? your analogy makes no sense. do you even understand what that saying means ?

    I suggest you reexamine your approach to your photography. Regardless of how you look at it, that mirror is an inherent corruption to the light.
    as above, i'll use my dslr thanks. no comprimise needed...so your attempt to wriggle out of the old argument you were losing and move to a new argument is redundant cos i'm not referring to SLT cameras.

    I do not know about you, but I did not spend thousands on my well-ground lenses and optically pure filtration just to have some cheap semi-permeable, dust-collecting, fingerprint-harboring mirror corrupt all of them.
    as above. this was about video in dslr. dont confuse the issue just cos you're confused.
    Last edited by Rooz; 09-24-2010 at 08:14 PM.
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  2. #22
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    While funny Rooz, insn't this a case of picking on someone incapable of defending himself.
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  3. #23
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    Thumbs up The Photokina experience ...

    There is a sincere level of discord in the ranks of the DSLR owners and Rooz's inferior contention that "everyone else" will be happy with the crappy.

    I simply figure it needed to be voiced.

    You can either appreciate it for what it is ... or go about your way, it makes no never-mind.

    There are those who simply stay-the-course and patiently wait for SONY to right the ship and ignore the pressures to be an also-ran. We shall see what we shall see ...

    Photokina offered a quick peek into what has been transpiring for the past twelve months, since this video-inbreeding began. Hopefully, we are seeing the end of such efforts and its rather pointless existence and image-corruption will be terminated before insidiously infecting the Full Frame experience.

    Again ... it is the upper-end that needs true protection from the design ... not the APS-C cameras. They were abandoned by "true-believers" when the α850 was released as a lower-cost invitation to improving your photography. By-cracky, they did deliver.

    I suppose when Canon and Nikon can get their offering under $2000 ... it may be interesting. I would not hold my breath.

    Welcome to the world of SONY, Dead ... watch carefully.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 09-24-2010 at 09:20 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    There is a sincere level of discord in the ranks of the DSLR owners and Rooz's inferior contention that "everyone else" will be happy with the crappy.

    I simply figure it needed to be voiced.

    You can either appreciate it for what it is ... or go about your way, it makes no never-mind.

    There are those who simply stay-the-course and patiently wait for SONY to right the ship and ignore the pressures to be an also-ran. We shall see what we shall see ...

    Photokina offered a quick peek into what has been transpiring for the past twelve months, since this video-inbreeding began. Hopefully, we are seeing the end of such efforts and its rather pointless existence and image-corruption will be terminated before insidiously infecting the Full Frame experience.

    Again ... it is the upper-end that needs true protection from the design ... not the APS-C cameras. They were abandoned by "true-believers" when the α850 was released as a lower-cost invitation to improving your photography. By-cracky, they did deliver.

    I suppose when Canon and Nikon can get their offering under $2000 ... it may be interesting. I would not hold my breath.

    Welcome to the world of SONY, Dead ... watch carefully.
    lol let me translate this for everyone...

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    The points i raised have no substance and i cant justify them or answer any of Rooz's questions so i'll just tiptoe over to another pointless tangent and hope no one notices the rhetoric.
    psst....Don...i noticed.
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  5. #25
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    Thumbs down Misquoted falsely

    Rooz ,,, you do not need to attribute quotes to me that I did not originate. What is with that, mate?

    You mean to tell me that after all this time and over 8600-postings, you do not have enough material to quote me accurately and without falsehood. Tsk-tsk. You, of any, should know better than to make things up.

    Please refrain from this practice. I do not plan to be beleaguered with constantly going tit-for-tat on your contesting various issues in the SONY DSLR (ad hoc SLT) forum, which you do not even have SONY equipment to reference from.They simply do not pay me enough for that nor is this svelte and methodical leopard going to change its spots just so you can claim something else.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 09-25-2010 at 08:46 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  6. #26
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    Interesting back and forth guys. There's an article in this months Popular Photography on future technological/feature advancements in cameras. Of interest were the figures they provided on DSLR market share and a predicted decline in sales - "The new Market analytics firm IDC forecasts that ILCs could reach 7% of cameras sold in 2013, up from 1% today, while DSLRs will drop to 6% from 8%. IDC analyst Chris Chute believes, though, that DSLRs will continue to dominate the high end of the camera market."

    Adding video to DSLRs may be one of the ways manufacturers are trying to stem the decline in DSLR sales. Just a thought.
    Darin Wessel
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  7. #27
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    Lightbulb You need to bear in mind ...

    DSLR sales really are not the important aspect of the CAMERA SYSTEM ... it is lens sales.

    The DSLR body is only a small part of the overall system. I mean, I still have my five Minolta film bodies from 1985-1989 ... they did not need replacement, so it would have been odd for me to buy another one. If they were using my purchases as a gauge ... well, Minolta would have gone belly up a long time before 2005.

    Now when it came to accessories and lens ... there, my friend, was the true market.

    SONY is really making this hard to build a reliable system, because every time they release a camera, they discontinue and quit supporting the older one ... you have to reinvesting nearly $1000 worth of supporting accessories to "make the camera whole." Well, after two or three times of doing that CRAP, people are sacked and out of available cash. They cannot even buy a new lens, because all the money went out replacing the "usual" components for the new body.

    Chances are, you will need to buy ALL the accessories at the same time you purchase the camera ... otherwise, you may not be able to get them, except through the likes ebay or some camera shop. This is just a sad fact.

    I feel this is amazingly stupid ... and making it hard to find solid ground upon which to build a system. Eventually, people just throw up their hands in total frustration and quit the product. SONY has to count on the initial sales to the NEW customers, because the poor treatment they give their RETURNING customers is reprehensible.

    Darin, look at it this way: A new $1500 DSLR body w/ vertical grip is a serious "sit down" with most couples. That's even w/o any additional lenses. Now, here comes SONY with a new DSLR ... and it has not even been a year since the old one was purchased, you can no longer get some parts for the camera, because they quit stocking it. So, there you sit with the MAIN portion of your system ... neutralized by the very company that built it... waiting to have ANOTHER 'sit down" with your spouse to explain why your first DSLR is no longer ... usable. Would you not like to be a fly-on-the-wall for that choice exchange?

    Or how about this: You finally got permission from the S.O. to go ahead and buy an α560 body ... to replace your "aging" α350 ... and then here comes SONY ... "BUUZZZZZZ ... no α560 for you, USA ... we need their sensors for the α33 sales. You now have to wait an additional 6-months." Okay, now you are left with your decaying year-old α350 and your spouse giving you that ... "and you had to have it so quick, because ...?"

    What is SONY doing to its customers? Worse yet, what the heck are we doing to ourselves? There is a lot to be said for a stable Full Frame camera system. Namely, the extra $3000-4000 in body-cost that each of us can keep in our bank accounts, as SONY is undergoing anal/cranial inversion.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 09-25-2010 at 12:56 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    DSLR sales really are not the important aspect of the CAMERA SYSTEM ... it is lens sales..
    Partially true in my opinion. New body buyers means more prospective lens buyers. As I've said in the past, I wish that Sony would work more on adding more lens choices than coming out with the "Body of the Month" approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    The DSLR body is only a small part of the overall system. ..
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Now when it came to accessories and lens ... there, my friend, was the true market...
    As ink is to printers? I would say the true market is appealing to a broad customer base that will continue to buy your product. As much as I love my Sony A900, I would be lying if I were to say I've not seriosly considered switching to Nikon. While SSS is a great feature that I rely on heavily, there is alot to be said about being able to shoot hand-held in available light at higher shutter speeds w/ acceptable low noise high ISO.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    SONY is really making this hard to build a reliable system, because every time they release a camera, they quit discontinue and supporting the older one .....
    Agreed that the more expensive, non-disposable cameras, should not have support discontinued just because the model itself is being discontinued.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    I feel this is amazingly stupid ... and making it hard to find solid ground upon which to build a system. Eventually, people just throw up their hands in total frustration and quit the product...
    You are preaching to the choir. While Sony is a juggernaut (SP?), even it will ultimately need to bow to market forces. It can only alienate customer base so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Darin, look at it this way: A new $1500 DSLR body w/ vertical grip is a serious "sit down" with most couples. .... you can no longer get some parts for the camera, because they quit stocking it. So, there you sit with the MAIN portion of your system ... neutralized by the very company that built it... waiting to have ANOTHER 'sit down" with your spouse to explain why your first DSLR is no longer ... usable...
    I would say almost any DSLR with at least one lens over $1K represents a significant expendature for most individuals. The problem I've faced is reduction in allocated budget due to unforseen, higher priority expenses, such as pipe replacement in the house. And while I would really like to get some of the CZ quality glass for the A900, it remains out of budget. So, do I save up for a year or more to get one single CZ lens and go with significant gaps in the fast glass/wide to normal focus range, or do I spend less now and fill the gap with older Minolta glass or third party glass. I suspect others face this same or similar conundrum and doubt it is going to change anytime soon. But, wouldn't it be great if Sony were to expand its lens choices to provide a greater range of entry level, mid-grade and pro-quality glass instead of or in conjunction with the expansion of its body choices!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    What is SONY doing to its customers? Worse yet, what the heck are we doing to ourselves? There is a lot to be said for a stable Full Frame camera system. Namely, the extra $3000-4000 in body-cost that each of us can keep in our bank accounts, as SONY is undergoing anal/cranial inversion.
    I would say that right now, Sony is simply trying to gain market share in the more advanced than P&S market. It seems to be doing that by trying to convert P&S customers over to less than intimidating DSLR and ILC models through its recent model releases. But it seems to be a chicken and the egg debate. Do you achieve greater market share by sticking with the same line of bodies and adding improvements while expanding glass selection or do you do it by increasing the overall customer base through new bodies and then expand the glass selection to fullfill new demands which in turn helps reduce overall price through volume sales.
    Darin Wessel
    α 900
    Zooms: Tamron SP AF70-200mm f2.8 Di LD Macro; Sigma 28-90mm D macro, Konica-Minolta 18-70 f3.5-5.6
    Primes: Minolta 28mm f2.8; Sony 50mm f1.4
    Minolta RC-1000 remote commander

    Film:
    Calumet Cambo CC400 4x5 View Camera
    YashikaMat 6x6 TLR (other accessories)
    Minolta Maxxum 7000 w/ Minolta 35-80mm f/4-5.6 & Minolta 2800 flash
    Minolta Maxxum 5000i & Vivitar 728 AFM flash
    What's next???

  9. #29
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    Lightbulb The "CODB"

    One of the aspects that seems to be the most confusing in all of this hubbub is the "Cost of Doing Business." How much does it really cost to assemble a lens, these days?

    Consider that the Chinese and Indonesia are now, pretty much, the lion's share of the production line for many companies, working for pennies on the dollar, the overall cost of producing lenses has to have dropped considerably. Not only that, there are entire communities devoted to the production of glass, hence the new 85mm f/2.8 SAM and 35mm f/1.8 DT at truly competitive pricing, in the open market.

    Personally, I am ready to lower my equipment costs ... since it takes so long to get Japan (proper) or Germany to produce anything. That fact does not reduce the "need" to have certain ranges quickly available to the masses.

    Of course, I have personally seen glaring problems with items manufactured outside Japan (proper), as quality control is more than a little bit shaky, in many respects. But, since there are so many defenders of non-Japanese goods, I will surrender my common sense and say, "What the hell, let's do it! BANZAI!" I figure, if we are going down as a country, here in the states, we photographers might as well take the appropriate images of the decline, too, with the reflective reduced-quality lenses we get from it all. A Lose-Lose-Lose proposition for everyone. I am getting kind of use to it.

    In fact, that way, in the next decade, when historians evaluate what happened during this horrific manufacturing decline that we are experiencing, they can quickly see that same irritable feeling we get from using cheap glass on our cameras. You know, the ... Ewww, yuck!

    I know, I know ... everyone else knows better. 'Rooz' has made that so very clear. You know, as clear as the "new mud" he believes we are okay with and should accept shooting through. I got ya, mate. It's the Cost of Doing Business in 2010. Just take a tissue to use, when these under-paid masses spit in your eye. Thank you for sharing.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 09-25-2010 at 04:25 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Rooz ,,, you do not need to attribute quotes to me that I did not originate. What is with that, mate?

    You mean to tell me that after all this time and over 8600-postings, you do not have enough material to quote me accurately and without falsehood. Tsk-tsk. You, of any, should know better than to make things up.

    Please refrain from this practice. I do not plan to be beleaguered with constantly going tit-for-tat on your contesting various issues in the SONY DSLR (ad hoc SLT) forum, which you do not even have SONY equipment to reference from.They simply do not pay me enough for that nor is this svelte and methodical leopard going to change its spots just so you can claim something else.
    lol you can be indignant and feign outrage as much as you like Don. is this yet another way to deflect attention from you being schooled ? and to think i didnt even charge you...what a nice guy i am.

    you cant go "tit for tat" cos you have no argument and no points.
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