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  1. #51
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    Feb 2006
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    Des Plaines, IL
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    Unhappy Well, it just figures the figures would lie ...

    Great. Now I am statistically incorrect, right? It was you, Jim, who made the vacuous claim, not I.

    If we look at the wonderful market, for example ... Canon and Nikon sell roughly 3 cameras to every SONY out there. Your forum, by all rights, should easily dominate this entire website ... yet, despite my meager contributions ... it does not.

    If you want to fight the tide, you are welcome to. I am not the person to get in the way. Watching the lemmings dance merrily off the end of a cliff ... well, I leave that to you. You can freeze their fall with your practiced hand and your camera. In the meantime, I will continue to support the decision I have made, just as I fully expect you and your EF 50mm f/1.8 to solve the world's lack of light issues.

    I really did not mean to brag or pop-off about my personal numbers, whatever they may be. I have to confess, 'Rooz' usually dominates those, anyway. I just wanted to point out the activity of each forum that is on the DCRP. If I left, I realize that most of you would probably not visit the SONY DSLR Forum. In fact, your attendance and contributions have a rather healthy effect on the learning curve for all brands of cameras.

    Actually, I kind of wish we had more to discuss, but Mother SONY is being shy. Not too sure why, but the truth will out, eventually, just like the 'forum statistics" bore out your error.

    As far as Canon goes ... you know the conditions of my return. Until they "make the change", I am not interested in their product. I want stabilization for every lens ... not just the few, the proud .. the IS-equipped lens! Freedom from "the shakes", as it were. Not everyone is as steady and practiced as you, old friend.

    Perhaps we should use more measured tones, otherwise the readers are going to think we are all just gear heads or something and quit taking us for ... the "seriously interested" people that we clandestinely are.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-07-2010 at 10:27 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
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    1,043
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Great.
    Not everyone is as steady and practiced as you, old friend.
    Maybe they should aspire to be...
    Just like you I come from the land of no grips, no frame advance, no auto focus, no OIS/IS/VR, etc. I have learned to work withing those constraints, I learned how to properly hold a camera, how to breathe, how to press a shutter, how to get the most out of my camera.

    All of this fancy stuff makes life easier, but all the easier for me because my learned and practiced technique makes all of the fancy stuff that much more productive, or unnecessary. Relying on this technology is a shortcut, and not a substitute for learning the right way.

    I am obviously not fighting any kind of tide, and if that tide is Sony, you yourself said CaNikon are handily outselling Sony 3:1, that sounds a lot like an ebbing tide to me. I choose to support my system, not with silly false claims on superiority in cost or image stabilization technology, but with photographic proof. I make no claim to my system's superiority, but will fight anyone's such claim that their system is superior, especially when it's stated with falsehoods. A photograph is just that, how it got there is immaterial, it's either good or it's not. No camera is going to make a hill of beans of difference in that. Put up or shut up, offer photographic proof, not some crazy false ruminations, I will crown Sony king, if you show me ONE thing you can do with your system that I cannot with mine using all the tools I have at my disposal. You can't do it.
    Last edited by TenD; 04-07-2010 at 10:35 PM.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Des Plaines, IL
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    Question What are your requirements?

    As I was saying, earlier, before we tore off to the Land of Comparative Shopping ...

    one of the things I am less than impressed with in the digital photography program is the lack of serious appreciation for the Pro-sumer or high-end DSLRs (APS-C or FF). When I see students holding a Canon XT, Nikon D60 or some other intro-level camera in their hands, I realize they've gotten some poor initial advice, because they are in a serious program, for a reason. This is not a hobby to them. This is going to be their chosen profession. It makes more sense that they should just purchase the higher-end camera body to perform all aspects of photography without question, delivering higher ISO, better control over sharpness, color, brightness, creative style, +/- 2Ev HDR-capable, a pc-Sync port for external flash triggering, 98-100% Viewfinder ... all that is at a level demanded of such a profession.

    I mean the school has other Art programs they teach, like Web Design, Graphic Design, Animation, and Fashion, where using these lower-end cameras makes sense and can be used to satisfy the requirements of the intro classes, but when it comes to the final production of "the Portfolio", having to reshoot your earlier images (if even possible), because they cannot be grown to full size is a miserable way to end your training. Not only is it a terrible waste of time and effort, when you could have done it right the FIRST TIME around, but it is also a level of expectation you are setting for yourself. If you cannot blame the equipment, break out a mirror ... it is time for some self-examination.

    My sincerest suggestion is to get ahead of this problem and get the great camera right up front, that you are going to NEED to fill this requirement as soon as possible. If anything, I feel a kick-ass DSLR should be the first thing on the "required" list after your second year. A requirement that can be incentive-ized and written off on your taxes as a professional need or requirement to get a job.

    Okay, perhaps that's the student-in-me talking, but the need is no less demanding. The level of perfection these academic people are expecting rivals anything out there in the business world. Ask yourself, what do you want to be "armed" with when you do YOUR job? Some $300 toy ... or the $8000 master of all light & dimension? (BTW: That's just $2000 to all you SONY users. )

    Honestly, you can argue until you are blue in the face about "I can get any shot out of my gear that you can." and that may have a level of sincerity to it, but when we go to the printer and you throw your APS-C image up and I throw a FF image of the very same frame, and we expand it out to a 4'x8' poster ... who's sorry, now? (<- click here for the "entertainment" portion of this posting) Yeah, happy days are here again, NOT!

    Anyway ... that's the long and short of it. Again, best of luck to those using the smaller sensor.

    Before anyone mentions it ... I did not suggest anything about glass. Just read my signature for that advice.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-07-2010 at 11:36 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    God's Country - Australia
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    from what i've seen so far your digital photography program could be completed with an ixus80 so your gear is a bit of a moot point right now.
    D800e l V1 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l EP5 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
    flickr

  5. #55
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    Nov 2004
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    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Some $300 toy ... or the $8000 master of all light & dimension? (BTW: That's just $2000 to all you SONY users. )
    You Pompous A$$. Suggesting someone's camera is a toy is hubris. I would bet there are students out there kicking that pompous a$$ of yours with their $300 cameras. Like we discussed above, apparently without any of it sinking into that thick Charles Emerson Winchester III skull of yours, the upgrade to FF for a Canon owner is $2499.95 not $8000. A mere $800 (if $600 is nothing, surely $800 is almost nothing) over the price of a 7D.

    A used 5D, the first affordable consumer FF camera body is around $1500, less than the price of a 7D. Yes you are correct, the Sony does offer more resolution, and for $2000 is decent deal. Keep the ISO down and you've got something there. But a 5D using Genuine Fractals to interpolate up, you've got something too.
    Last edited by TenD; 04-09-2010 at 08:29 AM.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
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    Jim, name-calling is not going to get anyone better images. Steady up, my friend. Take a breath.

    We have all been at this for a while and if you want to use a hand ax to take down a Redwood, you will get there ... eventually, but don't ask me to endorse the method. I still believe having a solid entry for your equipment choice is the proper way to approach these problems. Use a "top gun", that removes potential issues seems to offer a better solution, than always struggling.

    Okay, again, there is the educational aspect ... and that's one thing, as you are beginning, but that early stuff ends pretty quick. Believe me when I say, these people at the upper levels of academia really begin to examine your work. There is no more "fuzzy math" to get you by ... it has to be right and correct looking. Focus is critical. Color balance is critical. Intensity and exposure ... critical. In other words, unless you are really good at digital manipulation ... you absolutely have to take your image "spot on."

    BTW: I was not thinking Canon ... I was thinking Nikon D3x. If I had to make a change, that would be the direction I would go. Their approach was closer to Minolta's than Canon's ever was. Again, a matter of choice.

    While SONY is at the top of its game, at this point ... it has some improvements that can be made. Again, the price of entry, with "NEW" gear, is around best you will find. Shopping for "USED" ... the prices could be, quite literally, anything. It is not a fair comparison ... it just involves a lot of shopping.

    If you do happen to open a box of Candy Coated Popcorn, Peanuts and a Prize ... and the prize happens to be a low-end DLSR with kit lens attached ... you will know what I mean when it comes to "toy" cameras. As far as I have seen, we are almost there. One or two more market cycles ought to do it. For the moment, we are here ...

    Name:  mini digital.jpg
Views: 35
Size:  25.6 KB

    Just pony up the scratch, get the shot, and quit beefin' about it.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-08-2010 at 11:33 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    313
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    jr ... please know that I have made up my mind.
    Don, if you've really made up your mind, then quit whining about what Sony will or won't do. You'll then put up with whatever Sony pushes out and come here and proclaim it's the greatest invention ever. If you've made up your mind, shut up and concentrate on photography.
    Oh, and quit confusing the sensor size with the ability to enlarge pictures (when you are talking about those "poor students" with their "toy cameras"). That is a function of pixel density, NOT sensor size itself.

  8. #58
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    Feb 2006
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    Des Plaines, IL
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    Cool Image resolution ... and the BIG print

    So If I put a 6.1 MP image from a Minolta 7D up against a SONY 24.6 MP there is NO difference, right, as we blow those puppies up and create a nifty 4' x 8' poster.

    Sure.

    I'll remember that as I stand in front of the printer trying to explain the problem ... according to "jr."

    By the way ... the "forum" is the ad hoc complaint/solution department for our chosen devices. If you have an issue, share the darn thing and let's see what works. Letting manufacturers walk all over us is not my idea of a fun time, with anything I buy. Look at Toyota and their dodging the football, with accelerator issues. Recall after recall ...

    Whining? That's horse manure. Just do the right thing ... and life will be a lot easier on all of us ... and leave the toys to the children. Do not pretend they are something they most certainly are NOT.

    Do I expect anyone on here to be able to take action on many of my suggestions. Not really ... I would hope, though, that word might spread ... notice taken ... let the problem migrate as it will. Who knows? Someone may even get inspired. It has taken less, that's for sure.

    I mean, even when problems were addressed directly on the "Backstage 101" forum, on SONY's own website ... they picked and chose which questions would be addressed and which ones went ... virtually IGNORED. Eventually the need for answers to some questions got rather demanding ... when no real attention was paid or silly, obtuse responses were posed. Hence, no more BACKSTAGE 101. I suppose it may have worn out its welcome. Most corporate embarrassment rapidly does.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-08-2010 at 03:27 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,087
    Don, have you taken any shots with your A850 that would've been truly impossible on that Minolta 7d you were slagging?

    Inquiring minds wish to know.
    E-510
    E-1
    Zuiko 14-54 F2.8-3.5 MkI
    Zuiko 70-300 F4.0-5.6
    Konica Hexanon 52mm F1.8
    Cullmann 2503
    Benro KS-0

  10. #60
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    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
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    Well, I cannot say for certain, as I never owned one of the former company's product. I was right in the middle of trying to obtain one when Minolta "pulled the proverbial plug", therefore "slagging" my plans to use the camera for future work.

    It became an orphan in the storm, so I just shut my door.

    Regardless, here is Jeff's review of said orphan:

    Minolta 7D
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-08-2010 at 11:11 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

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