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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Des Plaines, IL
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    9,560

    Question Where's the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by jr_rodriguez View Post
    Don, it seems you can't make up your mind...
    You complain about Sony having a bunch of cheap, entry-level DSLRs, yet you hail them for having cheap, entry-level Full-Frame DSLRs. Isn't it the same thing, only one applies to APS-C sensors (granted, they have way too many of them now) and the other applies to Full-Frame?
    jr ... please know that I have made up my mind. The debate about entry levels in these two genres is really an "apples & oranges" thing and you really should not confuse the two.

    FF is an elite club and not everyone is understanding what it represents, yet. To have a Full Frame camera kind of belies a certain interest in photography, that usually evades the standard user. You are looking for a really big image, that won't show its origins when enlarged.

    So, entry level into such a club has its ... inherent costs. SONY has given everyone a shot at being able to create these enormous images for a price you simply cannot find anywhere else.

    One the other hand, pumping out a slew of entry level APS-C cameras ... and then taking away the one at the very top, that could inspire Full Frame interest ... for no real reason ... I am sorry, that just eludes me and many, many others.

    When you have thousands of people scratching their respective heads about these kinds of decisions ... well, it's like having the 800-lb Gorilla in the room ... someone has to say something. It is too stupid looking to allow to continue.

    I certainly applaud the entry-level Full Frame. So much so, I bought one! From what I have been able to determine from the 5000 or so shots I have done with it, it shoots better images than my α700 does. The internal controls are seemingly more accurate, with how AWB is done. I prefer shooting the physically larger α850 than the relatively smaller α700. It's a personal thing.

    I paid $1400 for the α700, new in Sept 2007.
    I paid $1999 for the α850, new, in Aug 2009.

    $600 for this improvement over APS-C shooting is effectively nothing, in contrast to the $4600 difference between the Canon 7D to get yourself up to the rather massive EOS 1Ds MkIII.

    Plus, I use ALL of my old and new glass ... 25 years worth. The SONY Full Frame DSLR cameras accommodate APS-C lenses as well as standard Full Frame ones. I do not need lenses with IS built into them ... I get it with EVERY single lens I mount, because "it's in the camera!"

    $600 for the anti-shake FF upgrade ... what's not to love?
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-07-2010 at 07:08 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
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    1,043
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    FF is an elite club and not everyone is understanding what it represents, yet. To have a Full Frame camera kind of belies a certain interest in photography, that usually evades the standard user. You are looking for a really big image, that won't show its origins when enlarged.
    Uhh, BS, elite my a$$. You are a SNOB, sir! My FF offers me advantages in noise, but it does nothing to make me elite in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    $600 for this improvement over APS-C shooting is effectively nothing, in contrast to the $4600 difference between the Canon 7D to get yourself up to the rather massive EOS 1Ds MkIII.
    You conveniently forget the first affordable full frame body, now in it's second incarnation, the Canon 5D. The jump to a 5D is quite a bit less than the leap to a 1D MIII. Like Rooz said, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. It's a mere $800 to make that jump. You are definitely the king of SPIN, or maybe worse. The 1D Mark III is superior to any camera in the Sony lineup, and is top notch professional gear used on every sideline in sports.
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Plus, I use ALL of my old and new glass ... 25 years worth. The SONY Full Frame DSLR cameras accommodate APS-C lenses as well as standard Full Frame ones. I do not need lenses with IS built into them ... I get it with EVERY single lens I mount, because "it's in the camera!"
    I'm pretty sure you've declared all film lenses junk several times, now they are suddenly useful? Useful like Peter and I have been saying all along? Again Spin Spin Spin.

    So let's re visit your fictional post:
    Canon 5D Mark II 2499
    Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS 1899
    Canon 24-70 f/2.8L 1329
    Canon 16-35 f/2.8L 1520

    Total 7247

    So Truth?? Spin?? Something Else?? You tell me. This set up is CHEAPER than your Sony set up, and includes video, even if you have no use for it, you can't make the decision not to use it on a Sony, because it's not there!

    Even if I went with the 70-200 II like you did in your slightly skewed post, I would still be only $600 more or $7847, hardly the $11K plus you suggest. I personally see no reason to go with the II, the I version is still a GREAT lens. And as you suggest the older lenses are fine to use...or ARE they?
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
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    Red face What's on TV, Jim?

    Okay, Jim, I admit that forgot about the "portable television set." I thought we were talking about real photography, here.

    Side by side, the real camera is the SONY and you have to admit, it is a clear winner. But, whatever floats your boat, I guess. I happen to like the overall "stabilization" idea, which I do not have to concern myself with when purchasing lenses. I mount it, it has got it. What's that worth? Every shot is different, right? Just remember, Canon PRIMES and MACRO lenses have no stabilization. You couldn't add it unless you post up on a firm surface or a tripod.

    Old glass has its own intrinsic shortcomings. The Minolta 50mm f/1.7 and 50mm f/1.4 are holding their own, but the new ADI aspects of the later Minolta and SONY lenses offer some advanced flash control not enjoyed by the five contact lenses. Technology invades, not optics.

    If you have not looked at an α850 or α900 DSLR, you are missing some of the finest work Minolta ever did. As a "legacy" design, is it truly amazing. It is too bad it was left in the hands of someone who has other designs on it. SIGH ...
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-07-2010 at 08:03 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    326
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    FF is an elite club and not everyone is understanding what it represents, yet. To have a Full Frame camera kind of belies a certain interest in photography...
    WOW...putting aside your condescending attitude, you really need to talk to the thousands of actual professional photographers who use crop sensors day in and day out with, for example, the D300, D300s, 7D, 1D Mark IV, 1D Mark III, E-3, etc, etc. I'm sure they don't have a "certain interest in photography"...

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
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    Cool "Photographers " is a big umbrella

    Those are "other interests", jr, and not part of the topic. Again, Red Delicious Apples and MacIntosh Apples.

    No matter how this is approached, some toes are going to get stepped on. This thread started as a complaint and notification about SONY shutting down the "active forum" on their website and here I am ... halfheartedly defending the lineup. I apologize for not being all that upbeat about this. I guess the fun is waning.

    I suppose I really should defer to someone else who has less interest in the line and let them pick up the gauntlet. For me, I see a "dark cloud" looming in the works and nothing to preclude its arrival.

    I mean nothing personal if you have decided to go the more expensive route to Full Frame. Best of luck and have fun with it. But, if you are still undecided ... you now have most of the prices that are out there, as of today (4/7/2010). You certainly can make an informed decision from there.

    I hope I was of some service in that regard, regardless of the manufacturer's path you pursue.

    Thank you to all those who helped clarify these points.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-07-2010 at 08:36 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
    Posts
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    I just spent a day in your Field Museum armed with an ancient 50mm f/1.8 film lens and my inferior, according to you, 5D. I got the shot in several instances. Didn't miss IS at all. Most of my trouble today came from missed focus, or subject movement(friends kids), the photos were shot at 1600 or 3200 ISO. A little NR and I have useable shots. So I did fine without your one size fits all OIS. Remember OIS does nothing for a moving subject, by the time you get your shutter stopping motion, the SS is high enough you really don't need your crutch.

    Oh and puleez explain to me how the Sony is the real camera, and the clear winner. I just again(this has to be about the 3rd or 4 time I've directly done it, and maybe the 100th time or more in various ways)proved you patently wrong in what you were saying, yet you keep on pontificating utter BS.

    Most, if not all of the people here who use Sony see the BS you spout also. Do yourself and your slowly dying forum a favor and at least spout factual information instead of fanboy conjecture, that borders on flat out falsehood. I have no problem with Sony gear, and if it weren't for you running your keyboard (mouth) shirking the truth, I would have little to say here except for some quiet discussion.
    Last edited by TenD; 04-07-2010 at 08:39 PM.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
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    Thumbs down A factual disconnect ...

    The forum is hardly dead, Jim. In fact, it appears that you "other manufacturer" photographers are in here more than your are in your own little cells.

    Don't believe me ... follow this little link and smell it out for yourself. Ask yourself, as you peruse the data ... who has the most active forum ... by almost double the next one?



    Yeah ... baby! Wake up and smell the coffee, Pal!

    The lure is too much. The bait ... simple enough. You bite. The line runs ...

    The biggest problem is SONY is playing their games. They have other interests and I really am hard-pressed to think it is DSLRs, anymore. It has not reduced my interest in my own system, despite what you and your Canon-cronies might try to imply.

    Just because I am a little more "vocal" about it, does not diminish the fact that I am having a ton of fun with photography. I know I am spending a ton of money to improve certain aspects of mine ... and the business aspects behind it.

    If you are interested in participating, I invite you to step on up. The water's fine!

    I have no problem using my camera to solve the photographic challenges I face on a daily basis. Are there things that I would improve upon? How do I answer "no" to that? I guess what I do not understand is why you feel I should cower in the SONY DSLR Forum as I express what I am doing with or feeling about my gear?

    I straddled both Canon and SONY ... running both systems for a full year. Look at the title to this forum. I made my decision and it still stands. It's anti-sh-sh-shake-in-the-body over spending myself broke and only having it in half of my lenses. I am happy for your steady hands ... as is probably anyone else that witnesses your imaging. You're a good contestant.

    Now ... where were we? Oh yeah ... where's my SONY Manufacturer's forum?
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-07-2010 at 09:27 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    God's Country - Australia
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    lol you picked the wrong hobby and the wrong course. you should be studying politics...in fact you should be TEACHING politics. never seen a person that goes off on so many tangents and talks such nonsense. not sure what post count has to do with things either. just anotehr road to nowhere.
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
    flickr

  9. #49
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    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
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    Red face Topical fuscillades ...

    Regardless of my politics, Rooz ... I truly believe that anyone who is fortunate enough to reach out and read these exchanges comes away with powerful information they will not get from many other places.

    I know your post count is filled with short blasts on contrition, but still ... it looks very impressive. Mine ... well, they tend to be a lit longer in length, in an effort to be more detailed and clear about things. They allow for mates like you to come along and ... snipe at them.

    While I appreciate your occasional contributions ... let's try to avoid taking it ... whenever possible.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 04-07-2010 at 09:26 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
    Posts
    1,043
    We all know that the Sony Forum numbers are totally skewed by you. When you were busy with your multi-colored poster designs that all had basically the same processing, this forum was next to dead. Look at the numbers for the year...number 3, and that number is that high also due to you before you went to school. The only reason that I and others spend time here is to prove you wrong and keep the truth out there rather than the odd version of the truth that gets passed around here by you.

    Lets start yet another poll on Tamron lenses, or Full Frame being the only camera(after Don bought one). And right now by my stupid argument with you, I am adding to your numbers. I could easily do the same to the Canon forum. Just look at your number of posts: 8350 in 4 years 2000+ posts a year, 5.4 posts a day! You are single-handedly propping up this forum. You sir are the only reason I spend more than cursory time here. You may look at that as this being a superior forum because of the numbers, but it's quite sad in reality. Your numbers are based on you stirring up complete utter lies and having to have others come here and prove you wrong...again and again.

    Come on over to Canon and see how much we tout our equipment as able to leap tall buildings, faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive. You seem to be the only one who feels a need to prove your Sony superior, but instead of proving superiority you bring up false claims, skewed numbers, outright lies, and very little in the way of actual photographic substance. And then you feel the need to take a swipe at CaNikon every chance you get.

    Sure your numbers are the highest, but not because Sony is that popular, but because you have made Sony infamous. I guess you think any publicity is good publicity, but in reality it's a false economy, based on your constantly skewing the truth.
    Last edited by TenD; 04-07-2010 at 09:36 PM.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

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