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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    What is the point of continually downing a very reasonable approach to getting it going?
    Got an opinion, put it forward. Heck, commit to it and do a side-by-side.
    I didn't say anything against the kit except for the word "mediocre", I was merely pointing out that now that it's your idea, it's a great way to start: A slow zoom or two that covers a decent range and a fast prime that helps indoors. Back in the thread I quoted, you bag on my choice of an excellent kit that blows away almost any zoom in your arsenal whether it is in performance or IQ or both. Try being at least a little consistent...
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  2. #12
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    Oct 2008
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    Raleigh, NC, USA
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    I think the 18-250 is a fine lens (18-270 even better), but I just don't understand why someone would buy a $500 DSLR, a $500 lens, and then shoot it like a $300 point and shoot. I'm not as much knocking on Don's comment, it is a fine kit, as I am talking about the fact that so many people think a DSLR will get them better pictures when they are using on-camera flash, so-so lenses, and green box auto. Yes ISO 800 will be usable and isn't on most point and shoots, and you will get a shallower depth of field, but if someone is shooting in that manner, they don't care about DOF, and are using (on-camera) flash in low light.
    Jason Hamilton
    Selective Frame

    EOS 5D - Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 35 f/2, EF 50mm f/1.8 Mk II, EF 70-210 f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Helios 44-2 58mm f/2 (with EOS adapter), 430EX, Canon S90
    Nikon FE - Nikkor 35mm f/2 AI'd, Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 AI, Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 AI, F to EF adapter, 2xVivitar 285, other lighting stuff
    Mamiya C220 - 80mm f/2.8

    Gear List flickr

  3. #13
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    Feb 2006
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    Des Plaines, IL
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    Cool Some clarification for this newer proposal ...

    YOU are a beginner photographer, in need of a low-cost solution.

    How much are you willing to dump into your brand new glass bag to get coverage at the various ranges?

    If a person were a true “beginner”, I may be short-sighted but I just could not see this "novice to the DSLR" reaching deep into their respective wallet and going for the $2000-$2500 bag o' glass that it would take to offer rather complete satisfaction for wide-aperture results.

    Let’s do a “good lens” coverage cost analysis. Now, these are good APS-C capable lenses, not GREAT ones.

    TAMRON SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF) . . . . . . $449
    TAMRON SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF) . . . . . . $449
    TAMRON SP AF 70-200mm f/2.8 Di LD (IF) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $699

    Or, perhaps,

    SONY AF 16-80mm f/3.5-4.5 DT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $749
    TAMRON SP AF 70-200mm f/2.8 Di LD (IF) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $699

    For “flashless photography”, capable with ISO-1600 and some kind of reasonable speed, you still are going to miss the wide aperture and will have to employ a PRIME of some kind:

    SONY AF 50mm f/1.8 DT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $159
    Or
    SONY AF 50mm f/1.4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $359
    Or
    SIGMA AF 50mm f/1.4 DG EX HSM . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $499

    As you can see … you are so close to $2000, and you have not even added a good MACRO lens … which puts us right back to buying the recently released TAMRON SP AF 60mm f/2 Di-II LD 1:1 MACRO (IF) for $519 (w/ rebate) and skipping the need for the AF 50mm f/1.4 for a long time.

    The AF 18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF) (SONY-Mount) comes in at around $499 … add that to the all-in-one 18-250 … and the package is a total of $1018, coupled with a 6-yr warranty for each new TAMRON lens. Admittedly, the 18-250 has some compromises built into it and the user will have to work a bit to correct for them, but still ... his/her wallet is a whole lot thicker for a while, while he/she is building up the stomach for the purchase of the "serious" glass.

    That’s arguably, a tremendous “bang for the buck” with the overall coverage you are getting. If you need a flash, you need a flash. The HVL-F42AM can be found for around $200, if you look. Even adding that, you only top out at $1218, for two very powerful lenses … and some added light.

    Anyone else have a better suggestion? Remember, the “cost conscious” beginner is a 'tough cookie' to convince of things "photographic" that he/she may not have any knowledge of … yet.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 01-10-2010 at 05:20 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  4. #14
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    If I were a beginner with no prior knowledge, I would have the kit. I would learn with the kit.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  5. #15
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    Cool Looking back ... way back, at the beginning

    If I were a beginner and privileged to enjoy a sight as interesting and knowledge-sharing as this particular one, I'd buck up and tell the darn manufacturer's what to do with their "kit" lens.

    I would buy ...

    just the camera body and the suggested "dynamic duo"!


    That kind of kit has the real magic to offer, not the in-the-box-of-cereal crap they practically GIVE AWAY! I would be getting all sorts of relatively decent stuff, while saving scads of money for my more important focal ranges and much more dynamic lenses.

    I say: "Learn with something that can provide honest-to-Jake serious results, not some plastic pass-along."

    Sorry, Jim ... I do not agree. It's too much fun when it actually works for you.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 01-10-2010 at 12:23 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  6. #16
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    Nov 2004
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    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
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    Would you? If you went into one of your beloved Sony Style stores with no knowledge, except that you want a DSLR because you want to take photos like you've seen in galleries, and it looks cool. Do you really think you'll walk out with anything more than the kit with as many high mark up accessories as can be sold to you?

    You'll end up with the kit, then you'll come here and ask why you can't get the photos you desire, then you'll meet you and end up with another bag of Tamron. Eventually you sell that and get Ziess or sell the whole shebang and end up with Canikon.

    Or like most, DSLR buyers, you get the kit, look for more length and buy some sort of slow crappy 70-300 for about $200 find that the photos aren't really any better than your wife's super-zoom point and shoot, get tired of lugging the kit around, and eventually relegate the whole thing to the closet or eBay.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  7. #17
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    Red face As I seem to recall it ...

    Gosh, Jim,

    I do not even remember it going that way at all. As far as my DSLR experience went:

    I interviewed the Nikon D70S ... then opted for the Canon EOS 20D "kit", with that horrible EF/S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 lens and 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III, back in Oct 2005 (Minolta had gone lights out and the future was suspect).

    I quickly learned how awful it all was and sought relief with TAMRON. I then bought:
    • the TAMRON AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF),
    • the TAMRON SP AF 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Di-II LD UWA,
    • and a CANON EF 50mm f/1.8.

    truly similar to the plan that is offered, today. It flippin' works!

    Over the next six-months, I worked up a number of improved zooms, each time cursing the lack of Image Stabilization in them:
    • the brand new TAMRON SP 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF),
    • and older TAMRON SP AF 28-105mm f/2.8 LD(which was gone for four weeks for update),
    • the TAMRON SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di LD Aspherical (IF) (got a sweet deal on this as an interim lens),
    • the CANON EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS USM,
    • the TAMRON SP AF 200-500mm f/5-6.3 Di LD SuperTelephoto Zoom

    ... all the while, waiting for SONY to provide the α100 w/ the "right thinking" in-the-body Super SteadyShot stabiliziation, from the ashes of the Minolta Camera Division. A year after its introduction and SONY finally realizing the α700 ... the SONY-mount lenses became available on most third party stuff.

    I CHUCKED THE CANON
    and sold it all off for their lack of vision. Four years later ... they still cannot see straight. I knew and had proved that having in-the-body IS was the only way to go.

    For the SONY part of the story, check out the gear list in my signature.

    And that, my friend, is where we currently stand, so I really think you have this rather twisted around.

    Name:  twisted-Tamron-200-500-eos-20d-copy.jpg
Views: 87
Size:  161.5 KB

    Leave it to Beaver ...
    Last edited by DonSchap; 01-10-2010 at 01:34 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,204
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Gosh, Jim,

    I do not even remember it going that way at all. As far as my DSLR experience went:

    I interviewed the Nikon D70S ... then opted for the Canon EOS 20D "kit", with that horrible EF/S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 lens and 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III, back in Oct 2005 (Minolta had gone lights out and the future was suspect).

    I quickly learned how awful it all was and sought relief with TAMRON. I then bought:
    • the TAMRON AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF),
    • the TAMRON SP AF 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Di-II LD UWA,
    • and a CANON EF 50mm f/1.8.

    truly similar to the plan that is offered, today. It flippin' works!

    Over the next six-months, I worked up a number of improved zooms, each time cursing the lack of Image Stabilization in them:
    • the brand new TAMRON SP 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF),
    • and older TAMRON SP AF 28-105mm f/2.8 LD(which was gone for four weeks for update),
    • the TAMRON SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di LD Aspherical (IF) (got a sweet deal on this as an interim lens),
    • the CANON EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS USM,
    • the TAMRON SP AF 200-500mm f/5-6.3 Di LD SuperTelephoto Zoom

    ... all the while, waiting for SONY to provide the α100 w/ the "right thinking" in-the-body Super SteadyShot stabiliziation, from the ashes of the Minolta Camera Division. A year after its introduction and SONY finally realizing the α700 ... the SONY-mount lenses became available on most third party stuff.

    I CHUCKED THE CANON
    and sold it all off for their lack of vision. Four years later ... they still cannot see straight.

    For the SONY part of the story, check out the gear list in my signature.

    And that, my friend, is where we currently stand, so I really think you have this rather twisted around. Leave it to Beaver ...
    Lack of vision for not including IS on every single lens/body combination? I don't think so. If there's anyone who seems to be lacking vision right now it's Sony who hasn't introduced any new noteworthy SLR technologies as of late.
    flickr

    Canon 7D - 5D | 550EX - 430EX II - (2) PW FlexTT5 | 24-105 f4L | 70-200 f2.8L IS | 100 f2.8L IS | 50 f1.8 II

  9. #19
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    Feb 2006
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    Des Plaines, IL
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    Oh stop, Ryan.

    At least there are plans ... Canon/Nikon NEVER planned any PRIME or MACRO lens solutions to their lack of stabilization. Don't believe me ... go ahead and mount an EF 135mm f/2.8 and shoot wide open at 1/15th of a second, ISO 400 ... and see how that works for ya. Nice and sharp looking, is it not? NOT!

    You just lost patience. Hey, it's okay ... the line is long.

    One thing I have noticed about camera-people ... patient about equipment and releases, they are not!
    Last edited by DonSchap; 01-10-2010 at 01:42 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    God's Country - Australia
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    what exactly are you shooting at 1/15th with a 135mm lens ? more swords hanging on a wall ?
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
    flickr

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