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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr_rodriguez View Post
    Well, said Rooz.
    I am switching to Nikon because I don't have much faith in the future of the Sony system. They haven't commited the resources to make me think they're really taking the DSLR market seriously. It's looking like Sony is just content to stay at the low end, and count on sales volume. THAT is what they know and are used to.
    Sony is competing in the full-frame market purely on price, *hoping* for volume.

    JR
    I'm sorry but that is just wrong headed.
    You have no idea how many resources Sony have committed.
    You have no evidence that Sony is not serious, the reverse is more likely.
    Sony have never been content to stay at the low end, again, rather the reverse.
    Sony counting on sales Volume, that's what all Manufacturers do, don't you know.
    Sony competing in the full-frame market purely on price. Not so, excellent products at an excellent price point (I wish they were cheaper).

    Switch by all means but for the right reasons, that is to say that you have weighed up the pros and cons of the various systems, done a cost/benefit analysis of switching and made an informed choice. The grass is not always greener over the fence, just different.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peekayoh View Post
    I'm sorry but that is just wrong headed.
    You have no idea how many resources Sony have committed.
    You have no evidence that Sony is not serious, the reverse is more likely.
    Sony have never been content to stay at the low end, again, rather the reverse.
    Sony counting on sales Volume, that's what all Manufacturers do, don't you know.
    Sony competing in the full-frame market purely on price. Not so, excellent products at an excellent price point (I wish they were cheaper).

    Switch by all means but for the right reasons, that is to say that you have weighed up the pros and cons of the various systems, done a cost/benefit analysis of switching and made an informed choice. The grass is not always greener over the fence, just different.
    As far as committing resources, I think actions speak louder than words. Look at their line-up and what they've been putting out. Even the A900 was based on an old Minolta design.
    Plus, the sending un-knowledgeable staff to trade shows is quite telling http://sonyalpharumors.com/ken-rockw...the-sony-a850/

    Never said others were perfect. Just a better choice for me, long-term. Neither Nikon nor Canon are perfect. And I wish Sony the best. Just so you know, almost ever electronic gadget in my house is a Sony. I love the general quality of their products. Like I've said before, I worked for Sony in my younger years, and I still have a soft spot for them. This has NOT been an easy decision. I just see Nikon as a better system to grow into. The same could be said of Canon, in my opinion. And it is just that, an opinion.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Look, you guys can readily switch, as we all have discussed. If you only have three or four lenses, it really is not worth the fight. In fact, it teeters on being just plain annoying. You really need the exposure to other brands to broaden your appreciation of what you have/had.
    Agreed. Switching taught me a lot more than I expected. Whats funny is that my primary reason for switching to Canon was high ISO, but I find I shoot high ISO much less often. As I have used more gear I understand how to get images out of it better than I did before. When to use a prime, when to use a zoom, when to carry a bunch of stuff, when to pack light, when high ISO noise or grain can actually be nice, when to under expose or over expose, etc. With what I know now, I think I could go with Sony and be happy. I don't see many limitations with the system for what I would do. For some types of shooting, Canon and Nikon are the only ones that provide all the needs, but this is getting into very expensive gear, and pro level shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elisha82 View Post
    I have to say that that I really miss stabilized primes. My Siggy 30mm would be so much better if I could handhold it at 1/30mm or lower!
    Me too. I don't actually own anything with IS. I had the 18-55IS for a while, and the 28-135IS for about a week. Nice lenses, but I have just gotten used to fast lenses. IS with my primes would be nice.

    I also miss the cheap old Minolta glass. You don't get that with Canon and Nikon. I'm looking at a few Nikon lenses that are quite old right now, and they cost more than a lot of equivalent Minolta AF lenses I bought. Minolta has pretty much completely revamped their line twice, once in the 90s, and again with Sony redesigns. This makes people think the older first-gen lenses aren't very useful anymore. Canon and Nikon still sell lots of older lenses, mostly primes. Nikon still sells several manual focus AI-S primes that were introduced in the 70's or early 80's. Canon's non-L USM primes were mostly introduced in the early-mid 90's, and they still sell almost the entire original prime lineup. So a used older 28/2.8 Minolta goes for dirt cheap, where the Canon 28/2.8, almost as old, is still very expensive because it is the same one you buy brand new.

    I'm rambling, but these are things I realized once I left Sony/Minolta. There are also some things I used to like about Sony/Minolta that I don't care as much about any more. It is all learning.

    I'm as guilty as anyone about getting hung up on the hardware, but when it comes down to it, I can do 85% of what I want to do with what I have on this little Nikon FE, a 35/2 and 85/2. We get so hung up on all these details and extra features. The only photography issue that has ever really gotten in my way besides myself was the slow zooms. Once I dumped those and just started concentrating on the pictures, things started getting better.
    Jason Hamilton
    Selective Frame

    EOS 5D - Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 35 f/2, EF 50mm f/1.8 Mk II, EF 70-210 f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Helios 44-2 58mm f/2 (with EOS adapter), 430EX, Canon S90
    Nikon FE - Nikkor 35mm f/2 AI'd, Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 AI, Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 AI, F to EF adapter, 2xVivitar 285, other lighting stuff
    Mamiya C220 - 80mm f/2.8

    Gear List flickr

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr_rodriguez View Post
    As far as committing resources, I think actions speak louder than words. Look at their line-up and what they've been putting out. Even the A900 was based on an old Minolta design.
    Plus, the sending un-knowledgeable staff to trade shows is quite telling http://sonyalpharumors.com/ken-rockw...the-sony-a850/
    Yes, I see the line up and I don't see that you've made any worthwhile point. There is a bunch of entry level models, next up are the 450/500/550 which are all very good and then the higher end 700/850/900 are very capable cameras albeit somewhat long in the tooth in DSLR terms (but still excellent tools). The A700 replacement is coming this year, there's another that looks like it may be an A6xx, the 500mm, the Zeiss prime, and the new EVIL range also for release this year. I don't see any lack of commitment or resources on Sony's part.

    The trade show scenario is not unusual and you conveniently ignore setaside2's explanation. I don't say it's good but not unusual at a Trade Show where not everyone is the Expert. I expect that Ken, had he wanted, could have asked for someone higher up the food chain.

    Quote Originally Posted by jr_rodriguez View Post
    Never said others were perfect. Just a better choice for me, long-term. Neither Nikon nor Canon are perfect. And I wish Sony the best. Just so you know, almost ever electronic gadget in my house is a Sony. I love the general quality of their products. Like I've said before, I worked for Sony in my younger years, and I still have a soft spot for them. This has NOT been an easy decision. I just see Nikon as a better system to grow into. The same could be said of Canon, in my opinion. And it is just that, an opinion.
    Yes, but those are not the reasons you gave for switching and therefore not the ones I commented on.

  5. #85
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    Lightbulb Setting my sights on better days

    Jason,

    You make an excellent case for having better gear. More light does cost more money. The fact is, going with prime lenses, although being "limiting" in having to actually get off your keester and move, also provides one of the best solutions to getting the shot. Having a broad mix of selectable glass for the occasion, in my opinion and practice, is really the best of both worlds.

    JR's criticism ignores the idea of having adequate optical solutions for your camera body. If you truly believe you can solve your problems by jumping to Nikon or Canon brands, man ... have at it. Just bring your treasure chest of hard earned money with you, as I assure you, it will get a lot lighter.

    SONY has invested in making a go of their DSLR offerings. Again, spreading it across six different intro-cameras is a little much, but people can get a reasonable taste of things to come when they decide to climb into the Full Frame seat. I bring this up in the absence of the a700, now.

    The a700 was truly a pinnacle camera. From using it you could feel the just about all aspects of normal DSLR photography. It covered all the bases and despite not having the newer technology of LiveView, that really was more of a spin-off of P&S digital cameras, not SLRs. The other low-end offerings simply incorporated that, but in doing so ... they lost sight the true technological edge the a700 brought to the party. The addition of video is just another distraction and most higher end photographers ignore it, despite the hype. Call it just another "gadget" or a "bell & whistle" that really is not going to be missed by the still photographer.

    SONY is sticking around, but they need to adopt a better relationship with their customers. It is, as it has been, in this man's opinion, abysmal.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 02-26-2010 at 10:23 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Jason,

    You make an excellent case for having better gear. More light does cost more money. The fact is, going with prime lenses, although being "limiting" in having to actually get off your keester and move, also provides one of the best solutions to getting the shot. Having a broad mix of selectable glass for the occasion, in my opinion and practice, is really the best of both worlds.
    Before getting my first prime (the Minolta 50/1.7) I remember thinking a prime limited your creative ability to control framing. After using it I realized that a zoom (slow zooms) limit your creative ability to control depth of field.

    I also have realized that cameras are actually meant to be used outside in daylight. I spent so much time hung up on getting good low-light shots, I completely ignored so many situations. Once I started putting as much effort into getting shots outside during the day as I had put into learning how to take indoor "available dark" shots my pictures greatly improved.
    Jason Hamilton
    Selective Frame

    EOS 5D - Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 35 f/2, EF 50mm f/1.8 Mk II, EF 70-210 f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Helios 44-2 58mm f/2 (with EOS adapter), 430EX, Canon S90
    Nikon FE - Nikkor 35mm f/2 AI'd, Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 AI, Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 AI, F to EF adapter, 2xVivitar 285, other lighting stuff
    Mamiya C220 - 80mm f/2.8

    Gear List flickr

  7. #87
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    Question Did ja happen to notice?

    Well, outdoors is still challenged for photography, as you may have noted watching the Olympic snowboarding and ski aerials. They have a huge photo reflector around the venue to provide high intensity strobing of the "Athletes" as they perform their craft.

    You would not have seen that 20 years ago. Of course, imaging is much better for that, too. I suppose a invested team of photographers can afford such improved lighting, but for we "normal" rig jockeys ... we could tag along with them, but usually it is still letting Mom Nature provide the most of the illumination on our darker days.

    Light is always the real deal. For we humans, it probably always will be.

    Be enlightened.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    SONY is sticking around, but they need to adopt a better relationship with their customers. It is, as it has been, in this man's opinion, abysmal.
    Don,
    Something related to that: I've talked to the few camera shops in my area, and they all say the same thing: the reason they don't carry Sony is because Sony is a huge pain to deal with and to go through their 'approved reseller' process. These are the people who will actually sell your stuff, so you want to make it AS EASY AS POSSIBLE for them to actually do so. I don't understand Sony's thinking here. The camera shops say Canon and Nikon are much easier to deal with, so that's what they sell.
    JR

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr_rodriguez View Post
    Don,
    Something related to that: I've talked to the few camera shops in my area, and they all say the same thing: the reason they don't carry Sony is because Sony is a huge pain to deal with and to go through their 'approved reseller' process. These are the people who will actually sell your stuff, so you want to make it AS EASY AS POSSIBLE for them to actually do so. I don't understand Sony's thinking here. The camera shops say Canon and Nikon are much easier to deal with, so that's what they sell.
    JR
    I was told at two places that it had more to do with volume... Sony would only work with places that were going to buy by the pallet, not by the unit. The local camera store here has a booming business, but they wouldn't sell a pallet of A900s in 10 years even if the rate of purchase was as high as it was when it first came out.

    I think it may also be that Sony isn't much more of a pain than Canon or Nikon, but for the lower volume the stores would sell, the effort to work with Sony isn't worth it. Sony is in a strange middle ground right now, they don't have the market share of Canon or Nikon, but they don't have the small business agility of Olympus or Pentax.

    Canon is still a huge company, and if SLR photography is their biggest money maker, it isn't by a large margin. I'd expect a lot of their B2B policies are closer to Sony's than any of the other players.

    All that said, I agree with you on this point JR. The fact that Sony isn't willing to make things work with the two local camera shops here was a big bummer to me. I have to go to Best Buy to hold an A2xx-A3xx, or go to Wolf Camera to look at an A700. I still to this day haven't so much as seen an A900. I am in a strangely big area to not have either a Sony Style shop or a Calmut. Most people that are used to having a retailer with photography gear in stock nearby have one of those close too.
    Jason Hamilton
    Selective Frame

    EOS 5D - Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 35 f/2, EF 50mm f/1.8 Mk II, EF 70-210 f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Helios 44-2 58mm f/2 (with EOS adapter), 430EX, Canon S90
    Nikon FE - Nikkor 35mm f/2 AI'd, Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 AI, Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 AI, F to EF adapter, 2xVivitar 285, other lighting stuff
    Mamiya C220 - 80mm f/2.8

    Gear List flickr

  10. #90
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    Well, you certainly are not going to get an argument about the extremely poor support SONY has here in CHICAGO, of all places. I posted a rather intensive look at the BIGGEST mall in the area (it's three stories tall and covers four city blocks), and all they have to support the DSLRs is two small cases of the cheapest lenses and some accessories. Sure, they have the a900 in the store, but not a single Zeiss or G lens (except the 16-80 DT) on hand to mount on it.

    So ... I get where you are coming from.

    Do I have an answer to this? Yes, fire Japanese kiosk bunch and put a real US photographer in charge. That may be a start. SONY's consumer advocacy is completely in the dumper, in my opinion. With all the people out of work and looking for employment ... what is this all about? They could easily man up a real camera store in the area and not have these SONY Style jokes. Looking forward, this low-end camera business is so cut throat and with such little profit "mark-up", the next thing you know, SONY will have you buying your intro-camera ... w/ kit lens, accessories and parts from an unmanned ATM-type machine, like the rental CDs are doing now, so they do not have to maintain a brick & mortar anything. Just slide your credit card in and out it pops! I mean its not like the cameras are going to expire. They will wait and wait until someone ponies up this week's going rate.

    Name:  DSLR-vending-,machine.jpg
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    I tell ya, there is probably some marketing BOZO considering it.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 02-26-2010 at 03:56 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

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