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  1. #41
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    Angry Feeling sucker punched!

    I guess what really made me angry was the rather abusive reception to fresh ideas I got over at Dyxum. Then, when I took exception, they locked my thread!
    That's not supportive, that's just abusive.

    I realize they are a "European" board and quickly cater to their native membership, but valid points should be considered and not ignored or censored. Yet, time and again, it keeps happening.

    Then SONY's goofy 3D announcement really took the cake. I know where their money is being funneled ... and it does not look like it is in developing DSLR technology. That really has me fuming, over the past three years of unyielding support I have provided all these thankless ... well, I think you know where I am going with this.

    This unrelenting winter storm and endless freeze is not really helping the situation. I feel like I am living in the Great White North, not the Midwest.

    Whatever ... congrats to Alabama ... National Champions!
    Last edited by DonSchap; 01-07-2010 at 09:43 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elisha82 View Post
    I don't see why talk of weather sealed lenses keep coming up.
    Please try reading what I post before you spout off.

    I've said it twice now - Sony released a pro-level, weather-sealed, FF camera (and don't give me crap about Sony not calling it "professional" - they just didn't want to support it is all), and then neglected to weather seal their lenses.

    This makes no sense from a professional perspective. Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Pentax, everything semi-pro level or above has weather/dust seals for a good reason. No pro only shoots in the studio, that's why. Even portrait/wedding photographers are going to do on location shoots, and dust and moisture are something you just have to deal with at some point.

    Doing the former without the latter destroys the usefulness of the system from a professional perspective, and from an upgrade perspective.

    Or are you going to tell me that Sony spent the considerable amount of R&D money on a FF body, glass, marketing, etc. just to sell the a900 and high-end Zeiss glass to really rich (and really fashion-conscious) amateur photogs?
    E-510
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    I guess what really made me angry was the rather abusive reception to fresh ideas I got over at Dyxum. Then, when I took exception, they locked my thread!
    That's not supportive, that's just abusive.

    I realize they are a "European" board and quickly cater to their native membership, but valid points should be considered and not ignored or censored. Yet, time and again, it keeps happening.
    Wow, what did you say to get such a reaction; I didn't realize Dixum was European. Still Dixum isn't Sony so your overnight conversion is rather amazing.

    Also, since your move to FF, I'm surprised that you find the lack of an A7xx so galling. It seems that Sony were aiming to replace the A700 around Sept/Oct time but, having seen the offerings from the competition, held back in order to make it more competitive; to me at least, that would appear to be a sensible, pragmatic move. I suppose that, being a fairly new convert to Digital, I've yet to aquire an obsession with the digital frippery, nor do I expect to have change my camera every year or so.

    Then SONY's goofy 3D announcement really took the cake. I know where their money is being funneled ... and it does not look like it is in developing DSLR technology. That really has me fuming, over the past three years of unyielding support I have provided all these thankless ... well, I think you know where I am going with this.
    The 3D push is coming from the Video division and they have their own budget so I wouldn't expect it to affect the DSLR Budget. Of course the current economic climate has an impact and I guess all budgets are somewhat curtailed.
    No, I don't know where you are going with this unless it's back to Canon.[/QUOTE]

    This unrelenting winter storm and endless freeze is not really helping the situation. I feel like I am living in the Great White North, not the Midwest.
    Yeh, we have a white out here as well, brrrrrr!![/QUOTE]

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jekostas View Post
    Please try reading what I post before you spout off.

    I've said it twice now - Sony released a pro-level, weather-sealed, FF camera (and don't give me crap about Sony not calling it "professional" - they just didn't want to support it is all), and then neglected to weather seal their lenses.
    I know you have and you constantly fail to appreciate the answer.
    The A900 was released to demonstrate that (a) they could do a class leading pro level camera and (b) provide an upgrade path for the existing Minolta users.
    It isn't a case of "not wanting to support the pro", they couldn't afford to if they were to concentrate their efforts (budget) into expanding their user base by targetting the entry level. If they fail to do this, the DSLR division will go the same way as Minolta. That would be bad for everone, including CaNikon users.

    This makes no sense from a professional perspective. Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Pentax, everything semi-pro level or above has weather/dust seals for a good reason. No pro only shoots in the studio, that's why. Even portrait/wedding photographers are going to do on location shoots, and dust and moisture are something you just have to deal with at some point.

    Doing the former without the latter destroys the usefulness of the system from a professional perspective, and from an upgrade perspective.

    Or are you going to tell me that Sony spent the considerable amount of R&D money on a FF body, glass, marketing, etc. just to sell the a900 and high-end Zeiss glass to really rich (and really fashion-conscious) amateur photogs?
    I think I just did. Your comments are quite irrelevent in the context of a Sony Strategy which does not yet include an assault on the Pro Market, they are simply a reflection of your own opinion of what Sony should have done.

  5. #45
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    Thumbs down IMPACT -> no a700!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peekayoh View Post
    Wow, what did you say to get such a reaction; I didn't realize Dyxum was European. Still Dyxum isn't Sony so your overnight conversion is rather amazing.

    Also, since your move to FF, I'm surprised that you find the lack of an A7xx so galling. It seems that Sony were aiming to replace the A700 around Sept/Oct time but, having seen the offerings from the competition, held back in order to make it more competitive; to me at least, that would appear to be a sensible, pragmatic move. I suppose that, being a fairly new convert to Digital, I've yet to acquire an obsession with the digital frippery, nor do I expect to have change my camera every year or so.
    Look, Peter,

    We do not have the luxury to pick and choose our battles with SONY. This company is a "monster" in size ... and just because I am content with one aspect does not mean the rest of the user base is. As a motivating group, we all need to move as consistent unit as we share the burden of the problem.

    Issues with no α7xx (or for that matter, the discontinuation of the α700) strike at the heart of the order and are a prime example of manipulation of the user base. It typifies the unreliable nature of SONY's attitude towards all of us.

    They have become cavalier with the incredible number of casual releases of P&S and video cameras they produce ... thinking they can do what they will with the DSLR market, which really is much more sensitive to shifts in overall technology, as these cameras occasionally fail and you need to have a reliable, equivalent replacement to back up your huge investment in glass, alone!

    How can you, of all people miss, this point? You have an enormous reliance on the camera, based on your lenses. If you do not believe me, just put your digital body in the closet for a couple of weeks and let me know how that works for ya. Now, imagine you cannot quickly replace your camera adequately, when it breaks. In the case of the α700: You either have to drop back to an intro or medium body, to try and get your images ... or advance to learning a Full Frame. There is a huge gap here, which they have created ... either by poor planning or design (God, I hope not). I mean this represents a BIG inconvenience to people (the user base) that need to have serious continuity in their photography.

    We are not seeing this problem, yet, but it is most certainly coming, because there really is no α700. I did not make this up ... if your warranty is gone ... you better have at least five hundred dollars and three weeks for a repair cycle.

    Roll this around anyway you want to, but it is SONY that is leaving its user base hanging, derriere-exposed, in the wind, not I. Personally, I do not appreciate it. I count on my cameras and do so, more and more, as I go through school. SONY needs to know and understand that about the DSLR crowd, instead of repopulating the planet with six different colors of intro-cameras.

    TAKE CARE OF THE LINE!

    Minolta burned us for a full YEAR! Not being able to repair broken "7D"s and leaving a lot of A-mount glass idle, awaiting SOMETHING. Now, the no α7xx hearkens back to that unreliability in the line. As a user, I do not want to see it happen again. Once is a lifetime was plenty! As a company trying to establish a firm foothold in the DSLR market, this is sophomoric thinking and unworthy of ever having a "professional" attraction to it.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 01-08-2010 at 06:59 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Look, Peter,

    We do not have the luxury to pick and choose our battles with SONY. This company is a "monster" in size ... and just because I am content with one aspect does not mean the rest of the user base is. As a motivating group, we all need to move as consistent unit as we share the burden of the problem.

    Issues with no α7xx (or for that matter, the discontinuation of the α700) strike at the heart of the order and are a prime example of manipulation of the user base. It typifies the unreliable nature of SONY's attitude towards all of us.
    Don, the thing is, I don't see it the same as you (and others). Yes, Sony is a Monster Corporation, but it's made up of many smaller Divisions and each Division ultimately stands or falls on its sales performance. Sony is big enough to give the constituent parts of the company time to deliver results (look at the PS3) but at the end of the day it has to be profitable. It's very clear to me that it's crucial for Sony DSLR to succeed in garnering new users at the entry level, otherwise it will never generate the Divisional revenue to continue. From that standpoint, it's perfectly acceptable to me that Sony sacrifice some progress in the upper levels in order to achieve that crucial critical mass of users. I believe (hope) that Sony is succeeding in this as evidenced by their European position (2nd to Canon) in the market.

    I simply don't see the discontinuation of the A700 as "manipulation" or "unreliable", they stopped manufacture of the A700 and turned the capacity over to making the A500/550 line and that's looking to be a pretty good camera. I think there may have been some surprise in the speed at which existing stocks of A700s were snapped up.


    They have become cavalier with the incredible number of casual releases of P&S and video cameras they produce ... thinking they can do what they will with the DSLR market, which really is much more sensitive to shifts in overall technology, as these cameras occasionally fail and you need to have a reliable, equivalent replacement to back up your huge investment in glass, alone!

    How can you, of all people miss, this point? You have an enormous reliance on the camera, based on your lenses. If you do not believe me, just put your digital body in the closet for a couple of weeks and let me know how that works for ya. Now, imagine you cannot quickly replace your camera adequately, when it breaks. In the case of the α700: You either have to drop back to an intro or medium body, to try and get your images ... or advance to learning a Full Frame. There is a huge gap here, which they have created ... either by poor planning or design (God, I hope not). I mean this represents a BIG inconvenience to people (the user base) that need to have serious continuity in their photography.

    We are not seeing this problem, yet, but it is most certainly coming, because there really is no α700. I did not make this up ... if your warranty is gone ... you better have at least five hundred dollars and three weeks for a repair cycle.

    Roll this around anyway you want to, but it is SONY that is leaving its user base hanging, derriere-exposed, in the wind, not I. Personally, I do not appreciate it. I count on my cameras and do so, more and more, as I go through school. SONY needs to know and understand that about the DSLR crowd, instead of repopulating the planet with six different colors of intro-cameras.

    TAKE CARE OF THE LINE!

    Minolta burned us for a full YEAR! Not being able to repair broken "7D"s and leaving a lot of A-mount glass idle, awaiting SOMETHING. Now, the no α7xx hearkens back to that unreliability in the line. As a user, I do not want to see it happen again. Once is a lifetime was plenty! As a company trying to establish a firm foothold in the DSLR market, this is sophomoric thinking and unworthy of ever having a "professional" attraction to it.
    Don, I have no interest in P&S and Video cameras but you're right, I do have an enormous reliance on the Sony DSLR, and a vested interest in the success of the system.

    As to your point about the importance of having a "reliable, equivalent replacement" in case of failure, that's surely a matter of individual choice, either you do or you don't. As it happens I recently picked up another A700 at a very good price so that I wouldn't have to go back to an older film body if the worst happened (loss or damage). Had I waited, I may have been tempted by the A450, who knows, but, I mean to say, if you were the owner of a single A700 and it needed repair, would you rush out and buy an (hypothetical) A750 at $1500 until you got yours back from the workshop? I really don't think so, not unless you were intending buy one anyway but hadn't got round to it (maybe waiting for a price drop).

    Something's got your dander up and persuaded you to take a swipe at Sony, but it seems to me the reasons you put forward lack legitimacy. I think it's regrettable that Sony have left a gap with the premature discontinuation of the A700 but, given that the reason appears to involve a bit of an upgrade after seeing the opposition releases, I think we need to be relaxed about it. Of course, if the A7xx turns out to be a big disappointment when it finally arrives, then there will surely be reason for despondency.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peekayoh View Post
    I know you have and you constantly fail to appreciate the answer.
    The A900 was released to demonstrate that (a) they could do a class leading pro level camera and (b) provide an upgrade path for the existing Minolta users.
    Right so they ARE going to provide pro-level replacements because they've proven that they can do it and want to provide an upgrade path for Minolta users?

    Or they AREN'T going to provide pro-level replacements because they can't compete with CaNikon in that space?

    If it's the former, Sony will have to re-design and re-release all of their top end lenses to professional build standards, which really doesn't bode well for Sony's planning.

    If not, they've wasted untold millions on the design, production and manufacture of high-end bodies and Zeiss glass, which doesn't really, again, doesn't bode well for Sony's planning. Not to mention the pricey advertising campaigns that went along with the release of the a900.

    Which is it?
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  8. #48
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    They will do a replacement upgraded A900.
    They won't yet pursue (and service) a Pro Market because the DSLR Division budget is targetted elsewhere.

  9. #49
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    Thumbs up Technically speaking ...

    I believe that I did a pretty good job of keeping it simple and straight forward in the "IMPACT" posting. I reread it several times and I think it adequately states the overall problem of this premature discontinuation.

    I am trying to keep a positive attitude about all this, but SONY is just dragging this out way too long. It is almost habitual with them.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  10. #50
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    All hyperbole aside, there is probably an A750 with 15 or 18mp, 1080p video, live view (maybe phase detect), at least 6 fps, and high ISO as good or better than the a550 coming at PMA. Or something significantly more interesting (1d/3d competitor maybe).
    Jason Hamilton
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