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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
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    1,043
    So...in one thread, you contradict yourself twice. First you admit that f/2.8 doesn't provide you with all of the light you need after lambasting my f/4 kit. Then on top of that you plan on buying the $1700 sun on a stick, of course staying with your theme of purchasing low cost glass because of a "budget".

    Then you start hoping for an aps-C sensor body similar to the new Canon 7D for sports use, quite soon after you declared the FF to be the only pros choice. Hmmmm.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Florence Alabama
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by dr4gon View Post
    This is an on-camera flash for basketball photography?

    What about just using and expanding your PW collection?
    would a couple off camera flashes placed around the gym help, and/or be any cheaper?

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    602
    It was my understanding that most professional arenas have strobes installed in the catwalks (usually above the basket for basket ball or above the net for hockey) to allow the sports photographers to capture clear images without having a bunch of individual flashes going off from the side lines.
    Darin Wessel
    α 900
    Zooms: Tamron SP AF70-200mm f2.8 Di LD Macro; Sigma 28-90mm D macro, Konica-Minolta 18-70 f3.5-5.6
    Primes: Minolta 28mm f2.8; Sony 50mm f1.4
    Minolta RC-1000 remote commander

    Film:
    Calumet Cambo CC400 4x5 View Camera
    YashikaMat 6x6 TLR (other accessories)
    Minolta Maxxum 7000 w/ Minolta 35-80mm f/4-5.6 & Minolta 2800 flash
    Minolta Maxxum 5000i & Vivitar 728 AFM flash
    What's next???

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
    Posts
    9,545

    Lightbulb Minimums are rough

    We are talking college, here ... so exposure is at the whim of the standard gymnasium lighting. Yuck!

    No, my experience has shown that f/2.8 is turning out to be a joke for this kind of shooting, without some improvement in ISO, at these speeds. Because 1/400th sec is the de facto standard for action-based basketball shoots. Once you get below an aperture of f/2, you can achieve a relatively close balance, basically because you are at Ev -1 and that is somewhat recoverable in post-processing. The ISO-800 shot, straight out of the camera, is a bit too dark, to be honest.


    Original . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . w/ Post processing
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    135mm - f/1.8 - 1/400 sec - ISO-800 - Spot Metering - Manual - Available gym lighting

    Using the "exposure" layer adjustment (Ev +1 & Gamma to 1.3), the "curves" layer adjustment (a tiny bit of highlight boost) and a wee bit of sharpening, this image is salvageable and actually got published.

    But look at that aperture. At f/1.8, the lens certainly had nothing more to give to the shot. It was wide open. The speed was at a bare minimum, as you will notice his left arm is a blur, so it is not crisp. 1/500th would have probably done it, 1/640th for certain, but the cost in light would be almost unbearable.

    Speed shift simulation (1/640th) (Ev -0.66 off original)

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    At 1/400th sec and an f/2.8 lens would complete made this one totally unusable, being -1.3 f/stops of the original.

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    At 1/640th with an f/2.8 lens ... you would have had a combined Ev -2 on this shot.

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    As the group has recently discussed, when you try to use software to boost from this far down, you get some real crap.

    Look, I admit, I am still kind of new to this action shooting, as I have not had my low light lenses for all that long, but I think I have made my point. This is the ragged edge of photography. I am not the first one to discover it ... but I hope to make the rest of the readers aware of just how tough this can be. I know I did not fully appreciate it, until I was actually "in the soup."

    Oh, and for you, 'TenD' ... what the exposure would have been @ f/4 - 1/640 - ISO-800

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    Yeah .. come back when they are playing ... outdoors! The fact is, you probably could live with an entire line of f/4 lenses, if you could use the Metz flash 7/24 in your shooting. Buying the flash would actually save you thousands in low light lenses. So, yes, there are trade offs ... and that couple with the fact that there are signs posted "NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY!"

    I certainly cannot predict when and if this situation exist for each venue. I suspect that the best solution would be to have BOTH options available. Wouldn't you agree? Optimize the entire bag of glass with extreme capability and BRUTE FORCE.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 12-13-2009 at 11:41 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Guelph, Ontario
    Posts
    1,903
    Don I think you need a 7D :-)
    But good job on getting published. Looks good to me.
    Why don't you try a higher ISO and process the RAW in DXO or something similar?
    Canon EOS 7D

    flickr
    FLUIDR

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,204
    1600 and 3200 ISO that bad? 2 Flashes on PW would be plenty of light.
    flickr

    Canon 7D - 5D | 550EX - 430EX II - (2) PW FlexTT5 | 24-105 f4L | 70-200 f2.8L IS | 100 f2.8L IS | 50 f1.8 II

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Guelph, Ontario
    Posts
    1,903
    A flash or 2 would make 1600 acceptable. I'm sure the a850 is capable at that ISO. The a700 is anyway.
    Canon EOS 7D

    flickr
    FLUIDR

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
    Posts
    9,545

    Cool The pursuit of clean ISO ...

    I did try the higher ISOs and found I was picking up significant noise in the walls. I compromised for a little better speed by eventually going to ISO-1000 (I know, "Ooooh, you're such a chance-taker, Don.")

    I may try some other things, as time goes one, to perfect this, but I have to admit ... having a better ISO 3200 noise response would shave a lot of trouble with the speed. Heck, it is always something.

    My "perfect 'no flash' combo" (if I could get it) ... for most of these games would be f/2.8 - 1/640 sec - ISO 5000. That would allow for most of the glass in my bag to work, instead of relying on only two lenses. (For 'TenD' and his magic f/4 suggestion, make it ISO-10000)

    Then, you would not have to tweak the exposure much at all. and you would still have a lot of flexibility for specialized shots, too.

    If SONY wants to really run havoc through the ranks ... turn out a DSLR sporting that "noiseless" ISO.

    But, taking this one-step further: How could they sell the wide-aperture, low-light glass if they handed everyone a camera capable of blowing it off? To be honest, strategically speaking, having NOISE beyond ISO-1600 is SONY's and Zeiss's "bread & butter", because it forces the consumer's hand. You get rid of that prohibitive noise and EVERYONE will start shooting ... dare I say it?

    f/4! . . . "e-gads!"
    Last edited by DonSchap; 12-13-2009 at 12:08 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    God's Country - Australia
    Posts
    10,406
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post

    My "perfect 'no flash' combo" (if I could get it) ... for most of these games would be f/2.8 - 1/640 sec - ISO 5000.
    thats not REALLY low light so not too hard to achieve. when you think about hi-iso testing, its normally tested at 1/60s or thereabouts which is a good 3 stops less light than the EV you just proposed. 3 odd stops gets you back down to the iso640ish mark....talking pure low light iso capability.

    maybe you should consider forgetting that expensive flash and picking up a d300 with a 70-200/2.8VR. better low light performance, better AF, better lens, better setup for what you;re trying to shoot.
    D800e l V1 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l EP5 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
    flickr

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
    Posts
    9,545
    Oh, please do not make me go Nikon. Then, I would be like all the gnomes ... with lens lust and truly expensive alternatives.

    Nah ... I'll stick it out with SONY. Might as well have something I can be recognized for in a room full of "all the rest" of the lens jockeys.

    "Oh, you shoot SONY, huh?"

    "Yes ... when the lights go down ... and all you have is a lowly prime ... it doesn't sh-sh-shake like yours does, Mate."

    Anyway, next game, I will give the new settings (f/2.8 - 1/640 sec - ISO-5000) a "shot", so to speak, and see it I can "freeze" it and get the Ev to 0. I'll worry about processing the god-awful sensor noise later.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 12-13-2009 at 01:20 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

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