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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peekayoh View Post
    So, which is better the A700 image at ISO800 with SSS or the Canikon at ISO3200?
    7D @ ISO 3200 any day
    I miss in-body IS but I prefer High ISO performance any day.
    Canon EOS 7D

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  2. #52
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    'Rooz' .... I want to remind you, you're haunting the SONY DSLR forum and perhaps you should enjoy the others. I'm not sure why you feel you need to make these comments, but you can stop. Go ahead try it. I suggest you just refrain from derogatory and personal remarks about my intent (which you could never really know) and what is involved in the SONY DSLR line.

    We have our own demons to slay.

    Hey, isn't it about SUMMER down there? Go out and shoot something ... and make it useful.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  3. #53
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    Take one week off this board for work and Don goes on another epic rant...
    E-510
    E-1
    Zuiko 14-54 F2.8-3.5 MkI
    Zuiko 70-300 F4.0-5.6
    Konica Hexanon 52mm F1.8
    Cullmann 2503
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  4. #54
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    Angry Buzzzzzz.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jekostas View Post
    Take one week off this board for work and Don goes on another epic rant...
    That'll show you! NEVER take your eye off the ball.

    This was not a rant, BTW, it was a flippin' "cost analysis". Cut me some slack.

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    Last edited by DonSchap; 11-17-2009 at 11:35 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    you're clutching at straws here Don bouncing from one argument to another but never making a solid case for any of them.
    And yet Don accuses ME of straying from the subject...
    E-510
    E-1
    Zuiko 14-54 F2.8-3.5 MkI
    Zuiko 70-300 F4.0-5.6
    Konica Hexanon 52mm F1.8
    Cullmann 2503
    Benro KS-0

  6. #56
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    Lightbulb At least discuss the topic ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jekostas View Post
    Take one week off this board for work and Don goes on another epic rant...
    And YOUR subject discussion ... my choice of subject. Real definitive, 'jekostas'. At least say something "on topic", not nothing or promoting more discord. Geesh - pointless use of posting rights
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  7. #57
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    VTEC Eater, your Motor Cycle shot is first class but I think it's a bit naive to say it had nothing to do with your chosen ISO. By selecting the lowest ISO possible you maximised the IQ, meaning colour saturation and image detail is spot on. An excellent panning technique put the icing on the cake.

    On the other hand the Basketball shot is a bit mushy and with muted colours. In retrospect you wish you had used ISO3200 and 1/400 to help clean up the slightly blurry hand and foot. Not in my book, ISO3200 means even more muted colour and even more loss of detail. There is nothing wrong with some blur of the extremities in an action shot, indeed many sports photographers prefer the dynamism injected into the shot. The trick with sports photography is to, "capture the moment", which requires spot on timing. For jump shots this often means the moment when the ball just leaves the hand, this also coincides with the highest point of the jump and when the head is more or less stationary. In these circumstances 1/125th is a good choice and offers a good mix of clarity at the focal point with a dynamic feel elsewhere; halving the ISO will certainly improve the detail and colour.

    I'm not wishing to rubbish your modus operandi, just saying that your choices are not mine and that there is more than one way of skinning a cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER View Post
    ..........So what exactly is the point of all this? ISO and image stabilization are two different things for two different purposes. They do not replace one another. Can you live without high ISO performance? Sure, but your image quality suffers greatly. Can you live without image stabilization? Sure, but you need to find a tripod, or monopod, or lean against a wall, or learn proper technique, etc, etc, etc. Image stabilization is replaceable, ISO performance is not.
    You can't compartmentalise functions in that way; capture your image using a synergy of all the camera functions, otherwise what's the use of technological advances.

    You got the bit about image quality suffering from the lack of high ISO completely wrong; it's clear that IQ degrades as ISO is increased.

    Can I live without high ISO? Can I live without image stabilisation?
    Having spent 40 odd years photographing without either, I can answer with a truthful yes.

    Do I want to live without them now that I have sampled the benefits? I'd say not, but if I had to choose between one or the other, I would choose the stabilisation. That's simply my choice but I also respect the choice of Canikon users who have already chosen a different path. Nor do I preclude the possibility of decent high ISO in the future; it may be that the ingenious techies will come up with maybe an ISO 1600 that matches or surpasses the quality of an ISO 400 image in terms of colour and detail. It's possible but I doubt it will come about by massaging the noise reduction algorithm, more likely by a better sensor technology.

  8. #58
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    Thumbs up Here, here

    An excellent viewpoint, Peter and well articulated.

    Film had its forgiving points. Digital is far more critical in its nature. Everything just has to be better, to get the most out of it.

    Lord knows we all have our work cut out for us with low light. Subject matter and timing are crucial, as always. Better ISO-response and Image Stability can offer tremendous capabilities currently not enjoyed by the masses. I look forward to the day that they finally are ... and we can all relax, smile, slap each other on the back and finally agree that SONY/Minolta had it right

    Awww ... group hug!

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    pic courtesy of CarbonNYC and Flickr

    ... and Canon and Nikon were just ... out there ... wandering in the wilderness.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 11-17-2009 at 02:57 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  9. #59
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    Aug 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL USA
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    935
    Quote Originally Posted by Peekayoh View Post
    VTEC Eater, your Motor Cycle shot is first class but I think it's a bit naive to say it had nothing to do with your chosen ISO. By selecting the lowest ISO possible you maximised the IQ, meaning colour saturation and image detail is spot on. An excellent panning technique put the icing on the cake.
    Thanks for the kind words. I upped the saturation (yellow and red channel) just a bit because it was a cloudy day and the colors were a bit muted. ISO however really played no part in my mind for taking that shot. I didn't need high iso's to shoot in daylight. I also didn't need to stop motion. I wanted motion blur. Any ISO from 100-3200 could have worked. I just set it to 200 because I didn't need high shutter speeds. Actually, aperture didn't matter either. I let the camera choose that. That shot is probably at f/16. Did I care about depth of field? No. The background was going to be a blur anyways. f/2.8 or f/32 would have netted almost the exact same results.

    All I cared about was shutter speed and good panning. Thanks to VR, I was able to get to 1/100 for a crisp shot. I actually got some shots at 1/50, but the bike gets a bit of a blur to it as it moves during the exposure.


    On the other hand the Basketball shot is a bit mushy and with muted colours. In retrospect you wish you had used ISO3200 and 1/400 to help clean up the slightly blurry hand and foot. Not in my book, ISO3200 means even more muted colour and even more loss of detail. There is nothing wrong with some blur of the extremities in an action shot, indeed many sports photographers prefer the dynamism injected into the shot. The trick with sports photography is to, "capture the moment", which requires spot on timing. For jump shots this often means the moment when the ball just leaves the hand, this also coincides with the highest point of the jump and when the head is more or less stationary. In these circumstances 1/125th is a good choice and offers a good mix of clarity at the focal point with a dynamic feel elsewhere; halving the ISO will certainly improve the detail and colour.
    I would blame a lot of that color to the fluorescent gymnasium lights. Not too vibrant in there. The colors are fairly accurate from what I remember. Nothing was "popping" in that gym. Actually, I had to do a bit of a color balance on that photo because it didn't hit my white balance properly. I agree the basketball shot was not a great one, it was just a comparison to Don's basketball shot. Similar shooting conditions but with different results.

    When shooting sports, especially where motion is high (basketball, hockey, soccer, etc....) you need fast shutter speeds. There's one thing to have a ball or arm or something like that in a bit of motion, but when the face is blurry, its a missed shot. Image stabilization won't freeze the motion of a break-away or catch someone flying through the air. IS works great for static objects or panning with inanimate objects (ie. an airplane, boat, car, motorcycle, etc.). They both play their part, but I would much rather have high ISO over IS.

    Different strokes for different folks.
    Nikon D300 | MB-D10 | Nikkor 12-24/4 | Nikkor 50/1.8 | Nikkor 70-200/2.8 VRI | Sigma 18-50/2.8 | SB-800 | SB-80DX (x4) | Radiopopper JrX Studio |

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    'Rooz' .... I want to remind you, you're haunting the SONY DSLR forum and perhaps you should enjoy the others. I'm not sure why you feel you need to make these comments, but you can stop. Go ahead try it. I suggest you just refrain from derogatory and personal remarks about my intent (which you could never really know) and what is involved in the SONY DSLR line.

    We have our own demons to slay.

    Hey, isn't it about SUMMER down there? Go out and shoot something ... and make it useful.
    make what comments ? that you're stirring the pot ? how is that personal ? i'm seriously confused on how you could take that as offensive.

    hey look, dont blame me if you make no sense. i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying your stirring...surely you cant believe all that nonsense you posted ??
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