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  1. #41
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    Thumbs down Slim pickings

    Obviously, the subject search this week is kind of slim.

    Now, we have indoor photgraphy without flash in debate.

    Jim, let me introduce you to a little thing called "Image Stability" on ALL, yes, all lenses. You cannot appreciate what IS can do on a wide-aperture PRIME lens because using a Canon "limited thinking" rig and you simply cannot do that.

    With a PRIME's wider aperture, you have an unbelievable extension into the world of ambient lighting. F/4 ... forget about it. Just shut all the lights off ... and get the same result.

    I am not quite sure why this is even coming up ... but unless you can enjoy a longer shutter speed, it is relatively a moot point.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 11-16-2009 at 05:03 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  2. #42
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    Nov 2004
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    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Obviously, the subject search this week is kind of slim.

    Now, we have indoor photgraphy without flash in debate.

    Jim, let me introduce you to a little thing called "Image Stability" on ALL, yes, all lenses. You cannot appreciate what IS can do on a wide-aperture PRIME lens because using a Canon "limited thinking" rig and you simply cannot do that.

    With a PRIME's wider aperture, you have an unbelievable extension into the world of ambient lighting. F/4 ... forget about it. Just shut all the lights off ... and get the same result.

    I am not quite sure why this is even coming up ... but unless you can enjoy a longer shutter speed, it relatively a moot point.
    First of all, you were the one who started this debate, you said I was searching for a flash. I am going to keep following your dodges and twists and turns whatever fantastic place they may lead to.

    Yep, you're right, Captain America, sword hilts and plaques don't move that much do they. What DO you do when your subject moves? I can do that, let me introduce you to a little thing called high ISO performance, and with that, I can stop action too. What would you like me to take a photo of now in my dark living room?
    Last edited by TenD; 11-16-2009 at 05:27 PM.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  3. #43
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    Dec 2007
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    1,760
    both of you..GO TO YOUR ROOMS!

  4. #44
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    Feb 2006
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    Offer the ISO-challenge on the next SONY release. You're a bit "late to the table" on this one with the current releases.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  5. #45
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    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Offer the ISO-challenge on the next SONY release.
    you've been saying that since the a100. lol

    you're clutching at straws here Don bouncing from one argument to another but never making a solid case for any of them. something tells me all you;re doing here is just stirring the pot. lol
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  6. #46
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    Nov 2008
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    Monmouthshire, UK
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    Hooray! This thread is certainly covering some ground, now it's high ISO vs. image stabilisation. It has to be said that when I first acquired my A700 I believed the hype and echoed the shouts of the Pundits for better high ISO performance; not any more.

    IMHO the much touted high ISO superiority of Canikon is a complete crock. For me it's not a question of "OOH! look how smoothly the noise reduction algorithm has rendered the image, it's "Bloody hell! where did all the fine detail go".

    Take a look at this examination of noise at... http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra700/page17.asp
    At ISO800 all OK
    At ISO1600 marginal
    At ISO 3200 unacceptable, all of them. The noise has gone but so has the detail.

    Assuming a conservative two stops of image stabilisation I can shoot at ISO800 where the others need ISO3200. So, which is better the A700 image at ISO800 with SSS or the Canikon at ISO3200?

  7. #47
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    Aug 2006
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    Chicago, IL USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peekayoh View Post
    Hooray! This thread is certainly covering some ground, now it's high ISO vs. image stabilisation. It has to be said that when I first acquired my A700 I believed the hype and echoed the shouts of the Pundits for better high ISO performance; not any more.

    IMHO the much touted high ISO superiority of Canikon is a complete crock. For me it's not a question of "OOH! look how smoothly the noise reduction algorithm has rendered the image, it's "Bloody hell! where did all the fine detail go".

    Take a look at this examination of noise at... http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydslra700/page17.asp
    At ISO800 all OK
    At ISO1600 marginal
    At ISO 3200 unacceptable, all of them. The noise has gone but so has the detail.

    Assuming a conservative two stops of image stabilisation I can shoot at ISO800 where the others need ISO3200. So, which is better the A700 image at ISO800 with SSS or the Canikon at ISO3200?
    Uggg... Image stabilization is nice and all, but it wont freeze action. ISO and VR, IS, OS, SSS, or any other type of "S" are two different things for two different purposes.

    Take Don's basketball photos (see this) for example. The built in IS did absolutely nothing to help make a sharper shot. His shutter speeds were too slow and the action was blurry. With the lens wide open, he needed higher ISO to get higher shutter speeds to freeze the action. Plain and simple.

    ISO2000, 1/250, f/2.8


    Still a bit too slow to freeze everything. I probably should have used ISO3200 and got 1/400 to help clean up the slightly blurry hand and foot. Thats my fault, not the lack of image stabilization. ISO800 would have yielded 1/100 shutter speeds. Yeah the background would have been tack sharp, but that shutter speed is far to slow to stop anything that's moving at a good pace. Could I have gotten this shot any other way? Sure. An f/1.4 lens wide open would have allowed 1/400 at ISO800, but now my depth of field is razor thin and accurate focus is very difficult to achieve. I also don't know of any 105mm f/1.4 lenses. An 85/1.4 may have worked, but those lenses typically aren't the fastest of focus and the keeper rate would probably go way down because of that.

    Where IS comes in handy in sports is panning. IS/VR is a dream when panning.

    I believe this was at 1/100 at 200mm


    The VR kept my slight shakyness while panning in line and got a great shot with nothing but the rider and his bike in focus. The entire background, the wheel spokes, and anything else that may have been moving during the exposure was rendered a total blur. Would ISO have been able to help me get this shot? No. ISO had nothing to do with it. It was set as low as it would go. Could I have gotten this shot without VR/IS? Maybe. I do own a monopod which can help with some of the shakeyness. I'm sure with a little practice I could get the same results with the monopod and VR turned off.

    So what exactly is the point of all this? ISO and image stabilization are two different things for two different purposes. They do not replace one another. Can you live without high ISO performance? Sure, but your image quality suffers greatly. Can you live without image stabilization? Sure, but you need to find a tripod, or monopod, or lean against a wall, or learn proper technique, etc, etc, etc. Image stabilization is replaceable, ISO performance is not.
    Nikon D300 | MB-D10 | Nikkor 12-24/4 | Nikkor 50/1.8 | Nikkor 70-200/2.8 VRI | Sigma 18-50/2.8 | SB-800 | SB-80DX (x4) | Radiopopper JrX Studio |

  8. #48
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    Lightbulb It's in there ... for some

    There are some that STILL refuse to see the wisdom of IS-in-the-body. They cannot be helped ... the poison of idea-assassination runs to deep. I have witnessed it again and again ... and it is still running amok.

    This feature should have been added to all DSLRs, years ago. I find it incredibly short-sighted that this lack of a truly digital advantage goes on to this day.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  9. #49
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    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    There are some that STILL refuse to see the wisdom of IS-in-the-body. They cannot be helped ... the poison of idea-assassination runs to deep. I have witnessed it again and again ... and it is still running amok.

    This feature should have been added to all DSLRs, years ago. I find it incredibly short-sighted that this lack of a truly digital advantage goes on to this day.
    We all know Sony and Nikon work together to develop sensors, so it would seem plausible that their sensors are almost of the same caliber. Why is it that Nikon beats Sony time and time again in ISO performance? Because that's where their money goes. Image quality. I know you like to throw out the debate of in body IS vs. lens IS, but in the end Sony sacrificed high ISO performance for in body IS. The question is, can you live without ISO performance, or without IS?
    Nikon D300 | MB-D10 | Nikkor 12-24/4 | Nikkor 50/1.8 | Nikkor 70-200/2.8 VRI | Sigma 18-50/2.8 | SB-800 | SB-80DX (x4) | Radiopopper JrX Studio |

  10. #50
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    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    you've been saying that since the a100. lol

    you're clutching at straws here Don bouncing from one argument to another but never making a solid case for any of them. something tells me all you;re doing here is just stirring the pot. lol
    That would be trolling Rooz. Thats a serious accusation!
    Nikon D90, D40 Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 | Sigma 50-150mm f/2.8 | Nikkor 35mm f/1.8
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    "You're pulling some awesome action shots with a cam and lens that are supposed to be rubbish ! " - Rooz

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