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  1. #691
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    God's Country - Australia
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    10,424
    with all of the evidence put to you about stabilisation, i suggest you restarteth the lesson cos you appear to be a godawful slow learner. lol
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
    flickr

  2. #692
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
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    1,043
    LOL

    I learneth nowt...

    Can I shooteth a subject that moveth in the early morn now?
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  3. #693
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
    Posts
    9,560

    Lightbulb Reflex lens

    Go right ahead and snappeth a reflex lens on a Nikon, Rooz. Handheld shooteth that puppy... and learneth. It is a wonderful revelation for tripod use.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 09-02-2011 at 08:26 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  4. #694
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
    Posts
    1,043
    Can I? Can I?
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  5. #695
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Des Plaines, IL
    Posts
    9,560

    Lightbulb Oh... I forgot

    ISO 100 ... none of that enhanced sensor nonsense.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  6. #696
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    326
    If you care about the image, you'll use a tripod, instead of counting on the sensor bouncing around inside the camera trying to guess which way your hand are going.

  7. #697
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
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    1,043
    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    ISO 100 ... none of that enhanced sensor nonsense.
    You can put anything in parameters that will make a particular attribute stand out. In this case you cripple the advantage the Nikon has (excellent noise properties) to make the Sony advantage (SSS) stand out. Why shouldn't he use the superior low noise Nikon (Sony) sensor to get the shot he desires? Use what's at your fingertips to produce the desired product.

    I could just as easily say to you to slap a super slow lens on your Sony and get a low light shot. And turn the SSS off...none of that moving sensor nonsense.

    Why would anyone want to shoot with a reflex lens anyway?
    Last edited by TenD; 09-03-2011 at 09:47 PM.
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

  8. #698
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    God's Country - Australia
    Posts
    10,424
    i dont shoot much stuff that requires stabilisation and if i do i have stabilised glass anyway. but lets just for a moment think about stabilisation in the real world as opposed to internet wartalk where i;m sure don will tender a tack sharp SSS of his dragon sword or captain america as evidence of its usefulness.

    my d700 has a tick over 60k on it now, (around 25k of them have been since it went for a swim incidentally !), lets say 30k are worthwhile shots, 10k are really good shots, 1k are great shots and 500 are shots i really treasure. now lets also consider that some of those "top 10,000" shots did require an element of VR...either macro, long focal lengths or low light indoors. guess what ? my 105 has VR, my 300 has VR, my UWA has VR and my walkaround lens has VR.

    so now that we have that established guess how many shots in my top 500, (excluding my 300mm), required VR ? zero.

    i cant think of any shots i have ever had to take where i thought, "crap, if only i had VR, i could nail this shot." but lets just assume i forgot about that killer shot and i did need VR to take it. how many of those would there have been ? maybe a half dozen...a dozen ? out of 60k ? lol if i shoot landscapes i have a tripod which i prefer over VR, if i shoot sport or the zoo with my 300mm i have a monopod and VR. but mostly i shoot people and people shots are not particularly conducive to slow shutter speeds where VR is useful at all. and as i said above...if i need it, i have stablised glass. ISO on the other hand ? boy oh boy...i reckon id be hitting 1600 in 20% of my top 10,000. so believe me, it helps when the 1600 file you take looks like a 400 shot. it helps when 6400 looks like 1600 on alot of other sensors. i will say this, if nikon produce a high MP camera which loses that low light ability...count me out.

    this is not to try and prove stabilisation isnt a good thing. of COURSE its a good thing; i have argued that nikon had NO excuse not to stabilise the 24-70 and 85G in particualr and to a lesser degree the shorter 24G and 35G primes. at their price points they should have had ALL the bells and whistles; and i'm pissed off that they didn't do it. if their new 135G doesnt have VR i'll be even more pissed. but i am also able to put it in perspective. for me, its a minute proportion of my shooting. perhaps if i wanted to shoot dragon claws in the dark i would want it, but right now i dont. and of the great shots don has produced in this forum...guess what ? NONE have been with SSS. all have been with flash or in good light. so even the SSS messiah didnt need stabilisation for his great shots. go figure huh ?
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
    flickr

  9. #699
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Des Plaines, IL
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    9,560

    Cool The new shooter...

    I think you are purposely missing the true "intent" for having SSS in your camera... the newbie. After you become truly tuned into you shooting rig, you can dispense with a lot of the band-aid particulars to help make that first image more successful. Let's face it, it is rare for most new shooters to take the time to also get a tripod. It is suggested? Most definitely, especially if you want to be in your shots, too. Most photographers are rarely in their own epic images, busily correcting this or that, directing this or that, then they forget that when everyone finally sees the image... they are no where to be found! Anyway, yeah... get that tripod and make it a good one, because if your camera does a "tim-ber" and hits the deck, you are going to hit the ceiling. FOr those still hand-holding their DSLR and running around with it, read on...

    Consider the common story of Joseph Bloue ("Joe Blow" to his friends). He stops into the local camera store, picks up a (Nikon or Canon) DSLR "kit" camera and also gets that sensationally wide aperture 50mm f/1.4 lens, un-stabilized as they commonly are, that he had gotten "talked into" by the retailer (because this idiot actually wanted to take ambient light, indoor shots of his kids, without turned them into a "grainy-looking" mess. Who knew?), then goes about taking what he would have considered to be nice INDOOR shots. He finds that the crappy KIT lens is producing sharper, albeit significantly darker (at least three f-stops of light LOST!), images... BECAUSE, he's a newbie and does not quite understand that the light-bound (f/4-5.6), manufacturer's kit lens has image stabilization in it and the fine f/1.4 PRIME does not. (Oh, why is this allowed to go on? Horrors!)

    Oops... enter the SONY DSLR (every single camera with stabilization built right into it, no matter WHAT A-mount LENS you slap on the front of it). Hand it to that same newbie, with that low-light gem of a lens fitted right on it...

    Settings:
    lens aperture at the remarkable f/1.4,
    camera's ISO @ 800,
    Shutter speed 1/30th...

    allow the SSS to run up and follow your movement and voila... steady looking imaging. Cost, relatively identical... the SONY actually may be cheaper. The newbie is happy, he/she got the shots he/she wanted... and the option to use just about any AF A-mount lens built from 1985 -> ON! All for the simple cost of the camera body.

    Folks, it's not brain surgery... it is not supposed to be. It was to give the photographer an "extra tool" for use in the field that people had (and in the case of Canon and Nikon still do) struggled with in an effort to increase the number of low light "keepers." Does it work? Darn tootin' it does and it is a darn shame that stogy old Nikon and Canon simply will not offer this lens-triggered "internalized" option on all their future builds. Sure would make those low-light PRIMEs a little more useful, other than having to retrofit them or replace them with lens possessing stabilization (that is, if they were even made!).

    Sorry... that's the way I envision it... and d-d-do it.

    Remember: AMBIENT SHOOTING -> It is what you do when you do not have a flash... or the flash batteries run out of charge and your flash unit just becomes a boat anchor.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 09-04-2011 at 08:54 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  10. #700
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Wild, Wonderful, Wyoming
    Posts
    1,043
    Sure hope those kids aren't moving, Don, yup kids are usually sitting very still...

    Joe Blow sadly returns to the Camera store. "Mr. salesman, I thought you'd said if I bought this here Sony camera with SSS that my indoor shots with no flash, I think they call that ambient shooting, would be sharp and not grainy?" "My kids are alway blurry, they aren't sharp at all". "Oh", says the salesman, "I though you were going to take photos of swords, action figures, dragon claws and such. SSS can't stop subject movement, only higher shutter speeds can do that." "Well, how do I get a higher shutter speed?" Joe asked. You'll need what we here call superior ISO performance." "Where can I get superior ISO performance?"...

    Oops... enter Canikon DSLR superior high ISO performance built right in, no matter WHAT LENS you slap on the front of it. Canon will accept any EOS EF lens 1987 - > ON! Including the first image stabilized lens for SLRs, it's a little fuzzier with Nikon, but they have quite a bit of legacy glass too. All for the simple cost of the camera body.
    Last edited by TenD; 09-04-2011 at 10:25 AM. Reason: spelling
    A good photograph is knowing where to stand.
    Ansel Adams

    Rule books are paper, they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
    Ernest K. Gann-Fate is the Hunter.

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