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  1. #651
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    Lightbulb Large format

    My experiences with Large-Format go back to 2004 and while it was "cute" to see what it could do, it sucked up a grunch of time and was quite an unwieldy method to capture images. I learned early on, it was for those who had some serious resources.

    Medium format is turning out to be closer to 35mm photography... on steroids. The equipment costs are 200-5000% more than current 35mm anything! LOL

    That SLT-a77 (a65) is really bringing some excitement to the party, though, with 24.3MP resolution on a crop sensor and most impressive shooting speeds (12-fps).

    Good luck with all that oversized shooting, Darin.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  2. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    That SLT-a77 (a65) is really bringing some excitement to the party, though, with 24.3MP resolution on a crop sensor and most impressive shooting speeds (12-fps).
    .
    goodness me. comparing an a77 to medium format. when will this madness end Don ?
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  3. #653
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    Obviously... there is a pretty varied gap

    directly -> @ Rooz:

    If you want to look at a 40MP, 56MP or 80MP Medium format digital back, I totally agree... it is game over. Those are tremendous size files and how they can describe an image is unbelievable... and time consuming. But, an APS-C size sensor at 24.3MP... that is seriously impressive, over anything else out there in its class... it is 30% more "descriptive" than the 16MP stuff, and as such, an unbelievable description of the taken image. I like them pixels.

    Medium format cameras just are ranging too wide for me to get a handle on what is considered better than what. Look at the variety of digital backs that are out there. 22MP, 28MP, 33MP, 40MP, 56MP, 80MP. What the heck do we measure with? They also shoot agonizing slow for me. Oh sure, they have high shutter speeds, depending on the body, but their mission does not allow for 12fps performance. The a77 does not walk away, in this department... it flat out runs away!

    I've been shooting with a 28MP back on the newer Mamiya 645AFDIII. Personally, it seems kind of pointless against the SONY α850/α900 Full Frame, at the standard print sizes. If we grow the image... to poster-size or larger, then the higher resolution Medium format have an inherent advantage. For me, it has just been a combination of glass, resolution and noise reduction. If you can get all that in one solid and affordable package... that should be your game plan. The α77 seems to be offering things not seen before in a crop camera... the jury is still out, until mid-October for the image quality, but early stuff looks impressive even against, so called, better cameras. Regardless, I do not think the image quality verdict will be long in coming. People have been preparing for this particular arrival for a long time. It has to compete... or even forge ahead.

    Obviously, if SONY brought out the 14 fps/50MP Full Frame gun (α99?)... in roughly the same size package, again -> GAME OVER. Currently, the buffer speed is the main culprit they are dealing with and if they use phase channeling for routing images, as I suspect they will, which is able to use the same buffer circuitry, to phase sensitive buffer areas... it'll be stop the presses. Nikon and Canon can be very thankful they don't have that technological monster kicking their house over... yet.

    Regardless... Medium format is too slow for outside the studio or some type of predictable environment, in my personal estimation. The cameras coupled with their associated digital backs are very heavy in comparison. Yes, perhaps having both might be cool, but exceptionally expensive. Cheaper to rent them when needed. Once the 50MP FF comes out, though... cannot say. Medium format might be up to 150MP, providing absolutely massive resolution.

    When I give the medium format back, I will not miss it. Not only am I concerned for its physical health every time I pluck it up, but the battery consumption is like nothing I have ever seen! Six "AA" batteries and with an AF lens mounted, they are only good for around 100 (if that) shots. C'mon! You would need to wear a bandallero full of batteries to "reload." Personally, if anything shows the problem with battery management, it's this system. No wonder people shoot MF. The cost of AF operation is nuts.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 08-25-2011 at 10:41 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  4. #654
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    Sorry, but I don't think 24mp on an APS-C sensor is such a great idea. Think about the physics--smaller pixels packed into the same area, which will then introduce noise and add heat. They'll have to do some major engineering and programming to deal with it. It sure can be accomplished, but I wouldn't be getting that excited about it. I remember professional photographers actually rejoicing that Nikon kept the sensor at 12mp when they introduced the D3s, and didn't try to match the Canon 5DII's or 1DsIII's 21mp. Whoever wanted more pixels could get the D3X.
    We'll just have to wait and see how Sony handles it. I think it would have been wiser to go to 16mp like Nikon, or maybe 18mp like Canon. No more. That being said, I hope it works great and sell lots of them.
    Maybe Don can buy a pallet or two of them.

  5. #655
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    Sensor madness

    When you look at the variety of sensors that SONY is using in their DSLRs and DSLTs... you have:
    1. the original 10MP CCD (α100) - resolution 3872 x 2592
    2. the 10.2MP CCD (α200, α230, α300 & α330) - resolution 3872 x 2592
    3. the 12.24MP CMOS (α700) - resolution 4288 x 2856
    4. the 12.3MP CMOS (α500) - resolution 4288 x 2856
    5. the 14.2MP CMOS (α290, α33, α350, α380, α390, α450, α550 & α560) - resolution 4592 x 3056
    6. the 16.2MP CMOS (α35, α55, α580) - resolution 4912 x 3264 - pixel density 4.42MP/cm2
    7. the 24.3MP CMOS (α65, α77) - resolution 6000 x 4000 - pixel density 6.63MP/cm2
    8. the 24.6MP CMOS {Full Frame} (α850 & α900) - resolution 6048 x 4032 - pixel density 2.86MP/cm2


    to name a few...

    The spread on this is enormous and yes, jrr, you can get three different 16MP APS-C cameras, at the moment, if you like.The 24.3MP is just the next step... and you do not have to take it.

    Highlighted in blue are currently (or soon will be) available from SONY (mid-2011)
    Last edited by DonSchap; 08-26-2011 at 12:05 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  6. #656
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    Don,
    Just because they can, doesn't mean they should. That's basically what I'm saying.
    Also, and we were talking about APS-C sensors, so #8 on your list is not relevant.
    And I do know I don't have to make the jump, and I know I won't. I can't foresee Sony coming up with something so spectacular that I'll switch back.
    JRR

  7. #657
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    Cool Look closer...

    @jrr

    You are just not looking close enough. Everything you could probably want, in a camera, has been delivered in the α77. This stands to be one of the best releases since the α700 hit the streets.

    I know it can be a little embarrassing tossing that "other brand" to the curb, but you need to look ahead and who is catering to the masses... and not just their corporate board.

    Nikon and Canon STILL refuse to add anti-shake to their sensor. That costs YOU money.. and it goes right into their pocket. Are they using that dough for product development? Yeah, developing new ways to soak up even more of your expendable dollar and giving some no-choice, crappy high-impact plastic in your camera body. Go ahead, drop it. I dare ya! Believe me, it has used in producing anything revolutionary, that is for certain.

    I hate to think of you just pining away... stuck with whatever you are currently using, thinking that this trend in technology is a fad. You are deluding yourself... and the change BACK is a lot cheaper than you think. Salt away enough for the change in October... learn this new camera and just tear 'em up... with a big ol' smile!

    Quote Originally Posted by jr_rodriguez View Post
    Don... we were talking about APS-C sensors, so #8 on your list is not relevant.

    JRR
    I put the Full Frame-sensor on there to differentiate its pixel density from that of the APS-C sensor. It was a point of reference for everything SONY has produced for the DSLR and SLT camera lines.

    Since you happened to mention this aspect, I thought I would put it in for clarity, to wit:

    Quote Originally Posted by jr_rodriguez View Post
    Sorry, but I don't think 24mp on an APS-C sensor is such a great idea. Think about the physics--smaller pixels packed into the same area, which will then introduce noise and add heat. They'll have to do some major engineering and programming to deal with it. It sure can be accomplished, but I wouldn't be getting that excited about it.
    I apologize if you were confused.

    To be honest, darn-tootin' that I am excited about advancing the technology. The α99 is next, a Full Frame SLT, I do believe. It may have as many as 48MP - resolution 8000 x 6000 - to describe an image... if that pixel density holds up. SONY has found a new way to keep these babies cool, so yeah... I am hot for it.

    Heck, in the medium format, they have gone from 22MP all the way to 80MP. The technology moves on... it has to.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 08-26-2011 at 12:08 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  8. #658
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    LOL!! Well, Don, I guess you are back to being in LOVE with Sony again. It seems just like yesterday you were whining and complaining about EVERYTHING Sony did.

    It seems it's Sony that's catering to the masses, and that's fine. That's their job.

    I don't have a problem with everything progressing. It's great, and I expect that. But, as you say, these models are just another way to "to soak up even more of your expendable dollar". I don't think these new models will be rock-solid build. Heck, they're not out yet, so we don't know. When you buy one, make a video of you dropping it. I dare ya.

    From my point of view, I'd rather Sony build up their lens catalog instead of adding megapixels to their sensors.

    And...it seems you're still obsessed with anti-shake in the camera. If your hands shake that much, use a tripod or monopod.

  9. #659
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    I have to say, be it them reading my postings or whatever (vanity precludes me taking credit), but they did include a lot of my comments and ideas/suggestions into the newest builds. I know they've got their brain-trust running and producing, but if I did actually had anything to do with some of the ideas, I am glad they are in there. We've been at this for 6 years, now... something may have rubbed off. Someone seems to be reading a lot of this stuff.

    If you use my name and SONY in the same Internet search, it gets rather interesting.

    None-the-less, I do appreciate seeing what I feel was "my vision" in the newest camera. The idea of the virtual information button ("?") can be vital to the learning curve of the beginner, as the "paperless" wave sweeps through technology and industry. I hate misplacing and losing the owner's manual. With a fully capable display device, like the backs of these camera's, you don't have to worry about it. The camera can actually teach you how to use it and how to become a better photographer, in the process. It is virtualization at its best source -> the very place you will use it.

    Anti-shake is a crucial element for most beginners. It will return more "keepers" than throw-a-ways. Obsessed... hardly. It is just a factual statement. Personally, I rarely shake, even with a rather large lens on my camera. Is anti-shake the be all, end all. No. But, I cannot, for the life of me, understand the point of PURPOSELY not having it in your camera body. The technology works. It does not need to be proven any further. Not having this technological convenience, now or before, just seems silly. If SONY can offer it in their cameras with prices lower than Canon and Nikon... let's get real. The argument to NOT HAVE IT is vain and unsupported.

    Just for grins... let's create a situation where you have a novice shopping for a new camera body. He is handed a Canon and asks the all encompassing question, "Does this camera have image stabilization (IS)?"

    The answer is OF COURSE... NO. To get IS, you have to buy a lens that has it built into it and there is an "added cost" for that "feature"... for every lens you buy!

    "Okay..." he says, "What if I buy a third party lens... like a Tokina... or perhaps, a legacy lens, before IS was fashionable?"

    "I am sorry, sir, Tokina does not make an IS-equipped lens... and if you use older lenses or other third party stuff, you will probably need a tripod, indoors."

    "But, SONY, Pentax and Olympus all have anti-shake in their DSLR or SLT camera bodies. Even Canon and Nikon Point & Shoots (P&S) cameras have it. Why don't Canon or Nikon DSLRs?"

    "Because, back in 2004, when the engineering staff of Canon suggested they make this change, some corporate money-mongers knew they could charge out the ying-yang for it with EVERY lens, because they had a proprietary mount system. If you want IS... you had to buy their lens. Third-party lens manufacturers did not have it until just recently. You could not mount a lens from anyone else and get it. Canon had a veritable lock on their owner's future lens purchases. You want stability? Pony up!"

    "Oh..." the young man says, as he hands the expensive Canon DSLR back to the knowledgeable salesman. "Let's go with the SONY system, then. My mother made sure I had my brain before I left this morning."

    "Excellent choice, sir."

    Anyway, it is what it is, jrr... knowledge is power, ignorance.. not so much.
    Last edited by DonSchap; 08-26-2011 at 09:32 PM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

  10. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    I have to say, be it them reading my postings or whatever (vanity precludes me taking credit), but they did include a lot of my comments and ideas/suggestions into the newest builds. I know they've got their brain-trust running and producing, but if I did actually had anything to do with some of the ideas, I am glad they are in there. We've been at this for 6 years, now... something may have rubbed off. Someone seems to be reading a lot of this stuff.
    lmfaooooooo i cant even tell you how hard your delusions of grandeur are making me laugh.

    None-the-less, I do appreciate seeing what I feel was "my vision" in the newest camera. The idea of the virtual information button ("?") can be vital to the learning curve of the beginner,
    you mean like the one on the d40 from way back in 2006 ? like the same one on every nikon consumer dslr ever since ? lol

    as for the antishake argument...its been had many times with you and you get owned every time.
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