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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    2,132
    Quote Originally Posted by Peekayoh View Post
    Switch to Canikon and you'll gain better ISO performance and promptly lose it again with camera shake.
    What? An IS/VR lens gives you 3-4 stops. That's more than enough.

    When I saw the first post in the thread, I immediately did a search for the word "flash". Not a single return. No one has mentioned the fact that what you really need is not a better camera for lower noise, but a flash to bounce off the ceiling for better light (and lower noise).

    I shoot indoors at 1/125 f/4 ISO 400 in low light, without in-body OR in-lens IS/VR, and I never have camera shake problems. Ever. At some point when the venerable Nikkor 17-55 is on my camera I will shoot at f/2.8 and use a little less flash power for better background smoothness.

    You need light. A good flash will cost the same as a new lens so consider that.

    The Tamron 17-50 is a great lens but don't use it below f/4, you won't like the results. This is not a very good lens at f/2.8 so there are better choices if you want more light.
    Last edited by Visual Reality; 02-21-2009 at 04:46 AM.
    Nikon D300 | Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 | Nikkor AF-S 70-300mm VR | Nikkor AF 35mm f/2 D | SB-600 | Lowepro Voyager C | Lowepro Slingshot 300 AW

    For Sale:
    Nikkor AF 35mm f/2 D - Like New (FX compatible)

    Wish List
    Nikkor AF-S 17-55 f/2.8
    Nikkor AF-S 70-200 f/4 VRII
    Tokina AF 11-16 f/2.8
    SB-900 (2)
    Umbrellas
    New Tripod

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Monmouthshire, UK
    Posts
    2,152
    Can't argue with that. Flash does the business.
    I got the impression though, that Jason particulary didn't want the intrusion of flash into his "candids".

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    2,132
    I can understand but a lot of people really don't know what kind of quality it can give when bounced. A lot of my photos look totally natural and 9/10 people cannot guess I used flash.

    Otherwise what you need is a prime. It is required if you aren't using flash in light that dim. You need a SS of at least 1/60 but preferably 1/125 if you really want sharp shots, and you're only going to get that with an f/1.8 lens and ISO 800 minimum, probably 1600...you're going to spend much, much more money getting good results from natural light than if you just got a flash unit. We're talking something like a Nikon D90 + 35 or 50mm AF-S.

    I can understand its "intrusion" factor for some people though.
    Last edited by Visual Reality; 02-21-2009 at 04:54 AM.
    Nikon D300 | Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 | Nikkor AF-S 70-300mm VR | Nikkor AF 35mm f/2 D | SB-600 | Lowepro Voyager C | Lowepro Slingshot 300 AW

    For Sale:
    Nikkor AF 35mm f/2 D - Like New (FX compatible)

    Wish List
    Nikkor AF-S 17-55 f/2.8
    Nikkor AF-S 70-200 f/4 VRII
    Tokina AF 11-16 f/2.8
    SB-900 (2)
    Umbrellas
    New Tripod

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,204
    Quote Originally Posted by Visual Reality View Post
    I can understand but a lot of people really don't know what kind of quality it can give when bounced. A lot of my photos look totally natural and 9/10 people cannot guess I used flash.

    Otherwise what you need is a prime. It is required if you aren't using flash in light that dim. You need a SS of at least 1/60 but preferably 1/125 if you really want sharp shots, and you're only going to get that with an f/1.8 lens and ISO 800 minimum, probably 1600...you're going to spend much, much more money getting good results from natural light than if you just got a flash unit. We're talking something like a Nikon D90 + 35 or 50mm AF-S.

    I can understand its "intrusion" factor for some people though.
    lol whenever I'm with friends and family and snap a picture with the flash off the ceiling, everyone's heads immediately turns and the room goes silent
    flickr

    Canon 7D - 5D | 550EX - 430EX II - (2) PW FlexTT5 | 24-105 f4L | 70-200 f2.8L IS | 100 f2.8L IS | 50 f1.8 II

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    2,132
    Yeah, let them get used to it
    Nikon D300 | Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 | Nikkor AF-S 70-300mm VR | Nikkor AF 35mm f/2 D | SB-600 | Lowepro Voyager C | Lowepro Slingshot 300 AW

    For Sale:
    Nikkor AF 35mm f/2 D - Like New (FX compatible)

    Wish List
    Nikkor AF-S 17-55 f/2.8
    Nikkor AF-S 70-200 f/4 VRII
    Tokina AF 11-16 f/2.8
    SB-900 (2)
    Umbrellas
    New Tripod

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC, USA
    Posts
    788
    Quote Originally Posted by dr4gon View Post
    lol whenever I'm with friends and family and snap a picture with the flash off the ceiling, everyone's heads immediately turns and the room goes silent
    And especially in a dark restaurant on a Friday night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visual Reality View Post
    I can understand but a lot of people really don't know what kind of quality it can give when bounced. A lot of my photos look totally natural and 9/10 people cannot guess I used flash.

    Otherwise what you need is a prime. It is required if you aren't using flash in light that dim. You need a SS of at least 1/60 but preferably 1/125 if you really want sharp shots, and you're only going to get that with an f/1.8 lens and ISO 800 minimum, probably 1600...you're going to spend much, much more money getting good results from natural light than if you just got a flash unit. We're talking something like a Nikon D90 + 35 or 50mm AF-S.

    I can understand its "intrusion" factor for some people though.
    This was with a 50mm f/1.7. And shooting ISO 800 and 1600.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSchap View Post
    Honestly, I can identify with the issues you have been having and suggest you "borrow" some CaNikon gear and try the same thing with it, before you take your final loss. Remember to tally the overall cost of new glass and see where the bargains really are. What the heck, you may even be back.
    I think that would be the best idea. I may try to rent a 40D and a 50mm, and see how far I go. Probably expensive though.

    I think the really tempting thing lately has been the cost of a used 5D. I'd like to go full frame soon, and the A900 and D700 probably aren't going to be very cheap for quite a while. And right now, looking at prosumer cameras, nothing is as strong of a deal as a used 40D. I'm seeing them between $600-700 used. The A700 and D90 aren't really available used, and I think the D80 just won't compete with the newer cameras on high ISO.

    I think it is time to move up. I sure like having a 70-200 f/4 with IS... and I paid $100 for the one I have now. One from Canon will cost almost 10x as much. That sure makes the A700 sound good. But it's tough to think of paying around $1000 for the A700, when I can get a used 40D, with better low light, for almost half.
    Jason Hamilton
    Selective Frame

    EOS 5D - Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 35 f/2, EF 50mm f/1.8 Mk II, EF 70-210 f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Helios 44-2 58mm f/2 (with EOS adapter), 430EX, Canon S90
    Nikon FE - Nikkor 35mm f/2 AI'd, Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 AI, Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 AI, F to EF adapter, 2xVivitar 285, other lighting stuff
    Mamiya C220 - 80mm f/2.8

    Gear List flickr

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,759
    My first camera was a minolta srt-101..35 years ago..i have been with m/sony ever since..i almost gave up a couple weeks ago becuase some dumbass salesman didn't know jack about what they were selling..(national camera)..but i pushed forward..mainly cause i have about 5 g in lenses..lol

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    72

    imaging

    I think everybody's missing the point, which was the nice shots of Irish food and drink.. OK, maybe now I'm missing the point :^)

    The other point is that, whatever gear you have, some shortcoming will manifest itself and drive you mad if you let it. For Sony it's most commonly hi-iso grain, which NeatImage or some such will regulate (with minimal damage if you dial it back). Personally the Sony does just what I want it to in every category but that noise; I hope it's fixed with the next run but then I'd find something else that a competitor does better.

    Good luck with your struggle! Most of us know some variation of what you're feeling, and every now and then someone else who's struggling chooses Sony.
    JimR - gear list changes daily
    http://picasaweb.google.com/alphaPDX

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC, USA
    Posts
    788
    Quote Originally Posted by jimr-pdx View Post
    I think everybody's missing the point, which was the nice shots of Irish food and drink.. OK, maybe now I'm missing the point :^)

    The other point is that, whatever gear you have, some shortcoming will manifest itself and drive you mad if you let it. For Sony it's most commonly hi-iso grain, which NeatImage or some such will regulate (with minimal damage if you dial it back). Personally the Sony does just what I want it to in every category but that noise; I hope it's fixed with the next run but then I'd find something else that a competitor does better.

    Good luck with your struggle! Most of us know some variation of what you're feeling, and every now and then someone else who's struggling chooses Sony.
    Well, the point sorta was more about the non-technical side of things. As I said in the opening post, we can get very hung up on hardware. But two things remain. The worst camera in the world is the one you don't have with you when the shot arrives, and your images will always suck if you don't shoot them. I was struggling with that second point. I wasn't shooting, and it wasn't fun anymore. Somehow limiting my choices (the 50mm prime) allowed me to open and get some shots.

    I'd better be in this for the long run. I just sold my guitar amp the other day to make some money to put on glass. Guitar used to by my great love, but now I hope to get the same experience from photography.
    Jason Hamilton
    Selective Frame

    EOS 5D - Canon EF 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 35 f/2, EF 50mm f/1.8 Mk II, EF 70-210 f/3.5-4.5 USM, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro, Helios 44-2 58mm f/2 (with EOS adapter), 430EX, Canon S90
    Nikon FE - Nikkor 35mm f/2 AI'd, Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 AI, Nikkor 105mm f/2.5 AI, F to EF adapter, 2xVivitar 285, other lighting stuff
    Mamiya C220 - 80mm f/2.8

    Gear List flickr

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    2,132
    Not to be biased, but if you're going to reinvest in a new system and want ISO performance, you're going for Nikon right now and not Canon. We'll see how and if that changes in 2009...
    Nikon D300 | Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 | Nikkor AF-S 70-300mm VR | Nikkor AF 35mm f/2 D | SB-600 | Lowepro Voyager C | Lowepro Slingshot 300 AW

    For Sale:
    Nikkor AF 35mm f/2 D - Like New (FX compatible)

    Wish List
    Nikkor AF-S 17-55 f/2.8
    Nikkor AF-S 70-200 f/4 VRII
    Tokina AF 11-16 f/2.8
    SB-900 (2)
    Umbrellas
    New Tripod

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