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Thread: F200exr

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdifoto View Post
    Shutter Priority mode isn't the only answer to avoiding blur.

    There are other ways. Like an ISO high and an aperture wide to guarantee that the shutter speed you want is the minimum. Or all Manual if your camera supports it.

    Serious birders and action photographers aren't going to be using a pocketable P&S, or even a superzoom bridge camera for that matter. They're going to be using a digital SLR and the big daddy optics.

    I'd even venture to say that most folks carrying a pocket size P&S at social functions aren't even moving away from Auto. They probably don't even know what those other symbols mean.
    Re your 1st sentence, that is why I stated what I did in the 5th sentence of my original post.

    Re your 2nd sentence, of course, but you are backing into it in A mode, not deterministically setting it. In M mode, yes, but most people would have an easier time with S mode than M mode, since S mode is more 'automatic' than M.

    Re 3rd sentence - of course, as previously stated in my 2nd post, but that doesn't mean casual shooters with a p&s should not get the shot or back into it with A mode. Why not leave out A mode? The DOF on a small sensor camera enables limited control for shallow DOF. If anything, this is a more dubious feature in a p&s than S mode.

    Re last sentence - yep, but the question by the OP was re S mode. And this poster is not the only one who would like to deterministically set the shutter speed, and perhaps the ISO, and let the camera choose the aperture. In this camera's design, with only 2 aperture values per focal length, it's severely limited...moreso than most p&s'.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotbalm View Post
    Re your 1st sentence, that is why I stated what I did in the 5th sentence of my original post.

    Re your 2nd sentence, of course, but you are backing into it in A mode, not deterministically setting it. In M mode, yes, but most people would have an easier time with S mode than M mode, since S mode is more 'automatic' than M.

    Re 3rd sentence - of course, as previously stated in my 2nd post, but that doesn't mean casual shooters with a p&s should not get the shot or back into it with A mode. Why not leave out A mode? The DOF on a small sensor camera enables limited control for shallow DOF. If anything, this is a more dubious feature in a p&s than S mode.

    Re last sentence - yep, but the question by the OP was re S mode. And this poster is not the only one who would like to deterministically set the shutter speed, and perhaps the ISO, and let the camera choose the aperture. In this camera's design, with only 2 aperture values per focal length, it's severely limited...moreso than most p&s'.
    They're all different means to the same end. The point is you don't need a shutter priority mode...especially when the aperture choices are extremely limited.
    Ouch.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdifoto View Post
    They're all different means to the same end. The point is you don't need a shutter priority mode...especially when the aperture choices are extremely limited.
    I agree with your first sentence. However, there are more convenient (and deterministic) means and less convenient means. I believe the camera's pinhole + ND filter design makes it far less convenient or even capable of capturing and entire major class of photos where the subject moves or the camera shakes beyond that which OIS can compensate.

    Re the second sentence, this is where I see a distinct difference of opinion. What I stated in my original post, 3rd-to-last sentences re not "needing" S mode was:

    It would be more accurate to say it wouldn't be "useful" - i.e., it would be terribly frustrating and of limited capability - to have only two shutter speed choices given a fixed ISO since the aperture can only be A or B at a given focal length.

    To that I'll add another scenario, if there were a S mode and aperture were dynamic as we'd expect it in that mode, it would only have two options, thereby causing the camera to have to use auto-ISO, and then what it's doing is jumping up or down in stepwise fashion re not just speed and ambient light if using flash, but also re noise.

    For the above reasons S mode wouldn't be useful.

    Given that the camera has M and P modes doesn't - again, imho - mean it's not needed. That's all.

    I see your points, my view is different in some ways. Have a good day.

  4. #14
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    I think we can agree though that the camera is half-assed.
    Ouch.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdifoto View Post
    I think we can agree though that the camera is half-assed.
    LOL, cough cough.

    Totally...

  6. #16
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    ...oops... I just noticed I missed a few postings before sending my reply - the matter was already set. So I've re-writen this posting completely. Sorry for that.

    Anyway: If you want a mode S in the sense of 'setting shutter speed but letting the camera choose everything else', what you really need is AutoISO for the modes A/S/M. And sadly, Fuji never includes this in any of their cameras (many people, including myself, have quite often complained about that on fujifilm.de).

    With the inclusion of AutoISO, again, Mode M on the F200EXR gives you all you need. Just choose one of the two possible apertures and set the shutter speed to whatever you want.

    Please don't forget that one of the two F200EXR aperture sizes uses an ND filter (which is necessary due to diffraction). A 12MP compact camera simply doesn't have enough aperture flexibility between open aperture and diffraction-limited aperture to employ a real and useful Mode S. Hence, while you surely want to have a mode S on a DSLR, it is simply pointless on cameras of the F200EXR class.

    Best Regards,
    malamut
    Last edited by malamut; 03-27-2009 at 06:03 AM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by malamut View Post
    Please don't forget that one of the two F200EXR aperture sizes uses an ND filter (which is necessary due to diffraction). A 12MP compact camera simply doesn't have enough aperture flexibility between open aperture and diffraction-limited aperture to employ a real and useful Mode S.

    actually not, the F200 has two real apertures. you see also some diffraction-problems when using the small aperture, but they are suprisingly little.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by EXR View Post
    actually not, the F200 has two real apertures. you see also some diffraction-problems when using the small aperture, but they are suprisingly little.
    Would you please show us your Fujiflm source which states the F200 has two real apertures, as in physical openings letting light in?

    How is it possible that with two real apertures and an ND filter that that camera doesn't have more than two f-stops at a given focal length?

    A single fixed iris + ND filter on or off is how the F200 would achieve 2 f-stops at any given focal length. That seems to make more sense given Fujifilm states it uses the ND filter to achieve an additional stop.

    Reference: Fujifilm F200 EXR manual pdf, Specifications section, page 108:

    "Aperture F3.3/9.0 (wide angle), F5.1/F14 (telephoto), uses Neutral Density (ND) filter."

    Please note when Fujiflm is dentoing ranges from X to Y, it uses a hyphen "-", not a slash "/".

    Example - see Focus Range below Aperture in same Specifications section:

    "Focus Range Approx. 45 cm (1.5ft)-infinity (wide angle), 80 cm (2.6 ft)-infinity (telephoto)"...etc.

    Last, for the f-stops obsevered in exif that are not the ones above, that is due to the zoom and thus focal length not being at either extreme, but in between. In that sense the fixed iris has a range and the ND filter correspondingly lets in less light at any of those focal lengths. So more than four different f-stops *in total* can be observed across the entire focal range, but they are constrained by a fixed iris, the addition of the ND filter and the effective focal length which can vary, thus 2 f-stops per focal length.

    f-stops are described below:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-number

    f / # = N = f / D

    where: f = focal length, D = diamter of entrance pupil (iris, aperture) and f / # is denoted by convention as N, as in f N, f 3.3.
    Last edited by dotbalm; 04-01-2009 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Cited sources.

  9. #19
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotbalm View Post
    Would you please show us your Fujiflm source which states the F200 has two real apertures, as in physical openings letting light in?
    No, but you actually can see it when looking in the lens, I also noticed increasing DOF with the smaller aperture.



  10. #20
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    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by EXR View Post
    No, but you actually can see it when looking in the lens, I also noticed increasing DOF with the smaller aperture.


    Did you take these photos of your F200?

    Was this in Aperture mode?

    Was this the only observable difference when you varied the aperture WITHOUT varying the zoom?

    If so, you just proved my point.

    Macro shots of my F30 shows what appears to be a hexagonal iris, but regardless...the attached photos appear to show a fixed iris (pinhole), which is my understanding.

    What I see here, ASSUMING THE FOCAL LENGTH DID NOT CHANGE is a small concentric ring in what appears to be the iris in one of the photos.

    Are you suggesting that ring does *not* contain the ND filter?

    The internal reflections changed, so I don't know if the capture camera position changed, the zoom (focal length) of the F200 changed, or what.

    Instead will you please do the following three tests with your F200?

    This should take less than five minutes:

    Mode: Aperture mode for ALL tests

    Zoom: Once set for each test, DO NOT CHANGE IN THAT TEST (sorry for caps)

    Test 1 - extreme Wide zoom, Aperture mode

    - Vary the aperture from as high and low as you can, find the extemes and any in-between f-stop values
    - Mark down how many aperture choices (f-stops) you have.

    Test 2 - extreme Tele zoom, Aperture mode
    - repeat steps in Test 1

    Test 3 - Middle zoom between full wide and full tele, Aperture mode
    - repeat steps in Test 1

    In any of the three tests above, did you mark down more than two f-stops? If so, can you let us know how many and what they are, at least at the extreme wide and tele?

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