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  1. #11
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    OK, I'll play...

    Quote Originally Posted by cdifoto View Post
    There are different types of reviews for a reason.
    what's the point of that portion of the review then? If it's truly just a sample shot, as you claim, than why would the reviewer use it to directly compare it to other cameras? Do you honestly feel it makes sense to compare camera A to camera B when the shooting parameters (and conditions) are completely different?

    I'm not trying to slam Jeff's whole review - I think he does a very good job in most respects, but this aspect of it just seems plain wrong to me, and I'm simply trying to illustrate why.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by themitty View Post
    No, they're not both valid. Jeff is clearly using this test to compare (or measurbate, as you call it) the same shot with different cameras - it's not a sample shot at all. It's passed off as a standardized test, and it's a very flawed test. What's valid about a test with so many variables? Do you understand that by using different apertures and shutter settings you're getting very different exposure values. This clearly has an impact on noise performance - I would hope you're not ignorant of that (I know Jeff isn't, which is why it is so disappointing to see these inconsistencies).

    To your childish response about me starting my own infallible website, no thanks. But this is an open forum, and Jeff asks for comments on his reviews, so that's what I'm doing.

    What's wrong with making a constructive suggestion that it would be a much better, more realistic, and more valuable test if the cameras used the same settings? We're not talking about point and shoots where the user would let the camera make the decisions. These are $1400 plus cameras, and should be tested accordingly.
    Actually, if you read ALL the words, he does specifically say that you cannot draw a lot of conclusions from the night scenes, because of the varying conditions. That is why he also does the studio shots. There, he controls the light. Even there, the differences are clear, and you cannot argue different conditions in identical studio shots.
    Eric Lund
    Nikon D200
    Nikkors: 17-55mm f2.8, 18-200mm f3.5-f4.5 VR, 70-300mm f4.5-5.6 VR, 35mm f2, 50mm f1.8, 55mm f2.8 AI-S micro, 105mm f2.8 VR micro
    Other Lenses: Tokina 12-24 f4, Tamron 75-300mm f4-5.6 LD macro
    Stuff: Nikon SB800, Nikon MBD200, Gitzo 1327 Tripod w/RRS BH-55LR Ballhead, Sekonic L-358 meter

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichlund View Post
    Actually, if you read ALL the words, he does specifically say that you cannot draw a lot of conclusions from the night scenes, because of the varying conditions.

    Which makes his original statement all the more amazing and wrong.


    That is why he also does the studio shots. There, he controls the light. Even there, the differences are clear, and you cannot argue different conditions in identical studio shots.
    Well, the parameters are much closer, but it's still not identical. 1/100 for the a700, 1/80 for the d300, both at f8, with +1/3 EV comp. So the a700 has slightly less exposure than the d300.

    Plus, if you look at them next to each other, as in this thread:

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=26030694

    I don't see how you could possibly say one wipes the floor with the other. The a700 shot is clearly sharper, with better color and contrast, and more color noise, while the d300 has less noise, which seems to be a result of higher level of noise reduction, and therefore is more soft.

  4. #14
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    you'll also note that jeff says go into a store and try these for yourselfr b4 you but. its not necessarily about picking the best, its about whats picking the best for you.

    if it was just about picking the very best of the best then there would be no point doing any reviews, the d300 is obviously the King, the 40d is the prince and the a700 is the court jester.
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rooz View Post
    if it was just about picking the very best of the best then there would be no point doing any reviews, the d300 is obviously the King, the 40d is the prince and the a700 is the court jester.
    Well, that's one hell of a court jester than - it provides the brains for the king, steadies his shakes, and costs $500 less.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by themitty View Post
    I don't see how you could possibly say one wipes the floor with the other. The a700 shot is clearly sharper, with better color and contrast, and more color noise, while the d300 has less noise, which seems to be a result of higher level of noise reduction, and therefore is more soft.
    Whoa, I never said anything about floor wiping in the studio test comparison. I said:
    Once again, I think the D300 beats both the 40D and the A700 in terms of high ISO performance -- and I think you'll agree if you compare the test photos.

    Also, I've never claimed that any of these tests are scientific, as a previous poster mentioned. Especially the night shot -- it's impossible to be consistent on that one, due to the conditions more than the cameras.
    Jeff Keller
    Founder/Editor, Digital Camera Resource Page

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Keller View Post
    Whoa, I never said anything about floor wiping in the studio test comparison. I said:
    Once again, I think the D300 beats both the 40D and the A700 in terms of high ISO performance -- and I think you'll agree if you compare the test photos.
    I didn't claim you said that about the studio comparison. You could certainly see how someone could read your quote and take it as such - "it was written as a blanket statement - the d300 adn 40D wipe the floor with the a700 at high ISOs". You've since corrected it, which is great.

    But, how can you look at the two 100% crops I linked to and not see that the a700 image is sharper, has better color and more contrast. Is the end goal to really wipe out all the noise, sharpness, color and contrast be damned? If so, than yes, the d300 wins.

    And for the record, I've owned both the a700 and 40D. I kept the a700, but I think the 40D is indeed slightly better at high ISOs in terms of retaining fine detail. I also feel it's better than the d300 in this regard, so I'm not just some blindly loyal fanboy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Keller View Post
    Also, I've never claimed that any of these tests are scientific, as a previous poster mentioned. Especially the night shot -- it's impossible to be consistent on that one, due to the conditions more than the cameras.[/I]
    Again, to my original point, why on earth would you go out of your way to compare the cameras based on these images, and make such an obviously inflammatory statement to boot? And why are you shooting them at such vastly differing exposures?
    Last edited by themitty; 12-15-2007 at 06:58 PM.

  8. #18
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    Red face Growth ... in new ways

    Quote Originally Posted by themitty View Post
    I didn't claim you said that about the studio comparison. You could certainly see how someone could read your quote and take it as such - "it was written as a blanket statement - the d300 adn 40D wipe the floor with the a700 at high ISOs". You've since corrected it, which is great.

    ...

    Again, to my original point, why on earth would you go out of your way to compare the cameras based on these images, and make such an obviously inflammatory statement to boot? And why are you shooting them at such vastly differing exposures?
    "Hey little buddy ... what are you doing down here on the floor? (as he bends down and retrieves his α700) My, my ... seen some better days, haven't you? What do you think you are ... some kind of floor mop? Analysts and their ... evaluations, huh? C'mon, let's go back to work. Enough loungin' around. I mean, considering that you were Editor's Choice for November 2007 ... wow, this is rather annoying."

    All kidding aside, the α700 delivers the goods, as far as I am concerned. It is a quantum leap over the α100 ... and that little number took Camera of the Year 2006 honors as it was. So, yeah ... I had an investment in Minolta glass and SONY came around and back-filled (literally ... a digital body behind my glass). Pretty cool, when you think all of that could have been completely lost to film-industry history, three years ago.

    Something is in the works with the Full Frame design (α900? or "Flagship"), so I'd suggest they seem pretty serious about this little game we're seeing. Many have taken the road that SONY is a flash in pan ... I'm not betting that way. They seem to have come to play ... and perhaps they're just a tad bit behind, but with Canon's EOS 1Ds MKIII and Nikon's D3 already out ... they could and more than likely will slip in with something devastatingly better ... leave the others stuggling to catch up.

    We shall see what we shall see ... 2008 may set the record straight!
    Last edited by DonSchap; 12-19-2007 at 07:00 AM.
    Don Schap - BFA, Digital Photography
    A Photographer Is Forever
    Look, I did not create the optical laws of the Universe ... I simply learned to deal with them.
    Remember: It is usually the GLASS, not the camera (except for moving to Full Frame), that gives you the most improvement in your photography.

    flickr & Sdi

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