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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    I do not have a D80 so I can not try anything, but try to use as neutral a setting as you can for colour and saturation. And just really take care of overexposing, watch the reds. I am pretty sure you will have seen the red get saturated/clip in the RGB hystogram.

    So... meter on something else, not on a red flower (since the flower is a bit too dark to get accurate metering on, and with the red, the red channel will just clip/saturate, which will play a big part in the colour not being right).
    Canon EOS 350D, Tamron SP AF 90mm F/2.8 macro, Sigma 18-50mm F2.8 DC EX, Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM, Tokina AT-X124 Pro 12-24mm F4, Soligor 1.7x C/D4 DG Teleconvertor, Manfrotto 724B tripod, Canon Powershot S30

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Chandler View Post
    Stephanie - thanks for the kind thoughts - I see what you're saying.
    Would it not be the case, however, that I would have to convert every photo I want to keep. Forgive me if I have this completely wrong - as you know i have no experience of RAW.

    But, for example, take my recent Iceland holiday photos: -
    I took around 330 - 340 ish shots.
    I deleted somewhere around 50 or 60. but created around 6 or 8 extras (panoramas, crops etc).
    I probably tweaked a further 20 shots - so, aside from the deleting I will have messed with maybe 30 shots maximum If you count that before the deleted pix it's about 11%, or after it's around 9%
    So rounding it off - I would edit about a tenth of my photos.
    Surely I would have to open and convert/tweak many more if I shot in RAW??
    PLUS - the extra loss of space and speed on the camera
    I am happy with JPG at middle quality - reserving top quality (just a flick of a button) for those special shots - (which actually didn't occur at all on my last holiday) -
    Part of my reasoning for a DSLR was to make life a bit easier and more harmonious - not less. The faster focusing and more accurate exposures etc are supposed to make life better for me as far as photos are concerned.
    I think I am working towards that - I managed it to a degree with both point ans Shoots - If I can't succeed, then the D80 goes! I really don't believe that line of events will happen however as I am sure that all those settings are in there for use and for a reason.
    I enjoy editing, don't get me wrong, but I also have a busy life besides my hobbies.
    If I can manage on 10% editing then I am happy that I got 90% good straight off the camera - and I did in Iceland!
    This Red issue was a problem that I resolved on my A-200 and I am sure once I find a formula it will be possible with the D80. Almost as simple as exposure compensation...?
    I am a family guy and I have a job and friends - If I were single I would give it more time and yes - I guess I would be shooting in RAW.
    I am contemplating another Point and Shoot for my wife for holidays so that sometimes when we go out I will leave the D80 behind and she can just tuck a little camera in her pocket. Something compact as I have no such camera myself (My daughter has though!).
    Does all this make sense - or am I doing this subject to death??
    everything you say makes perfect sense and i can feel your frustration from here. lol

    a couple of points here:

    you mentioned tucking something into your pocket sometimes. thats nothing to be critical about, i do this quite often. there are times i don;t want to carry around a big cam so i tuck my little ixus 850 in my pocket and off i go !! there are times and places where a dslr is just not convenient. i did this with my old canon eos and i still do this now.

    what you need to figure for yourself is this: will another dslr give you the results that you want ? its quite easy for someone to say "an xti will get better results" but i think that is complete and utter rubbish and poor advice to give someone that has a major investment. it's a shame you don;t know anyone with an xti cos that would be an experiment i recommend, get the xti for a weekend and test it out to see if it achieves what the d80 cannot.

    if your frustration continues then i would even seriously consider renting one and again trying it for yourself. (or even renting another lens for the d80). imo this is such a critical thing to do becasue the last thing you want to do is lose money on this setup to buy canon and then having the same problem. reds and purples are difficult to achieve with digital and will be the same in every digital.

    i look at it this way; if some people are getting the result i want that means the cam can do it but i can;t...YET. personally the reds i was getting out of the cam to me were accurate after getting my head around colour modes etc. but this is only one flower in one lighting scenario. most liekly this will change every time depending on light etc. perhaps investing, (cheap as chips), in a grey card will help to get the cam to be more consistent with colour. someone did this a while ago and i think they said the results were great.

    glass makes a difference. i know you can;t spend money on glass right now but believe me the lens even effects colours. i have been SO happy with the tamron i can;t tell you how wonderful the lens is in every respect. and alsmot every macro i have shot out of this thing is close to perfect straight out of the camera or with MINIMAL PP with curves.

    i'll try a couple more red tests tonight, i will take a few with my 850ixus aswell just to see the difference. i will try and work with metering a bit more to see how differnt it is. spot metering on a red flower obviously doesn;t work, especially with macro when it fills the frame so that leaves you with matrix or making sure there is something other the the red to meter from.

    today i am testing out the 80-200f2.8 on a d200 so i can;t help.
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
    flickr

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    Surrey, England
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    Just reading the recent replies with my morning coffee and cereal before heading off to work (shift work!).
    I made my decision on the camera over a long period - and it was close between the Canon 30D and the Nikon D80 ~ I really quite liked both.
    Now I just have to adapt to the one I have decided on - I am sure I would have to do something similar with the 30D had I bought it.
    This Red problem is not just a Nikon thing - although in some settings the Nikon gets a bit enthusiastic with the red saturation.
    I will see about getting a couple of cards or something.
    well - I rushed out, inbetween sips off coffee, snapped a few shots and dashed back in - only got 15 mins before heading off to work
    Here's the 2nd of 3 shots I took of the Lilley
    For D80 users - it was colourspace 2 Adobe RGB, WB Sunlight +2blue
    -1.7ev (the first shot was a tiny bit lighter) ISO250, 60th sec F5.6
    75mm equiv focal length
    The daisys in the background are too bright - but that's OK (should be light yellow) Te Lilley is almost spot on
    This is morning light - and I know it would be different at different times of the day.
    NB also - this is a slightly unusual colour shade - and I wanted to capture it accurately as it's not your
    usual bright red but a more subtle shade. The previous PP experiment was too much, this is nearer the truth
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Geoff Chandler; 05-20-2007 at 12:39 AM.
    Geoff Chandler. UK/England/Surrey
    NIKON D90 / D80. Nikon 16 - 85 VR, Tamron 28-200,
    Sigma 70-300APO, Tokina 100 AT-X Pro D.
    SB600 flash. Panasonic DMC-TZ25

    http://geof777.multiply.com

  4. #24
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    ~ So it can be done - once you get to know your camera
    Here's the lilley on its own
    Same settings more or less - (40th sec I think)
    I just need to be aware of which settings have what effect - hopefully with
    time it will become second nature...
    This shot looks spot on on my screen as far as colour, contrast, brightness are concerned
    I think I was expecting to make smaller exposure adjustments - but especially with these reds closer up I see they need under exposing.
    Rooz - don't disregard the type 2 Adobe RGB mode!
    Coldrain thanks for your helpfull advice
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Geoff Chandler. UK/England/Surrey
    NIKON D90 / D80. Nikon 16 - 85 VR, Tamron 28-200,
    Sigma 70-300APO, Tokina 100 AT-X Pro D.
    SB600 flash. Panasonic DMC-TZ25

    http://geof777.multiply.com

  5. #25
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    Dec 2006
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    God's Country - Australia
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    ok geoff. i think i got this red thing licked. once you get the WB and metering right, its a breeze. these are all straight out of the cam from 4 different lens', no PP just some cropping for better framing. exif data should all be there. i also shot from some different angles and framing to see how it would meter against different shades in the background. also a full red frame with the tam. all photos are matrix metering. -0.3ev and i think from memory all with colour 1a. mode II is a little too desaturated and neutral for my taste.

    the red is a little different depending on the lens and the tamron again is the most accurate from a reproduction sense, but the reds are great in each photo. the metering in the VR shot is a little too light cos of the very light backround on the right. the other VR shots against a blue background were much more similar to the 50mm in colour. not as accurate as the tam, but not as vibrant as the sigma.

    meanwhile on the different lens', check out the beautiful bokeh with the 18-200VR, (i never noticed it so much before), and the ugly bokeh with the 50mm f1.8. i noticed this poor bokeh in the 50mm when stopped down in sunlight, this happens from f4 and up and is a MAJOR shortcoming of this lens imo. a little while ago it came up in a portrait shoot and it came up again here. also notice the vibrance and brighter reds of the sigma. this was consistent with every perspective shot with the sig regardless of the sun position. i like it personally but i can also see how it could end up being a bit frustrating. the 18-200VR is alot less saturated...maybe too desaturated for my liking but a quick zap in l/c will fix it right up.

    1. 50mm
    2. 18-200VR
    3. sigma
    4. tam
    5. tam

    i guess i wont have to invest in a 30d to resolve reds after all.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by Rooz; 05-20-2007 at 03:23 AM.
    D800e l V3 l AW1 l 16-35 l 35 l 50 l 85 l 105 l EM1 l 7.5 l 12-40 l 14 l 17 l 25 l 45 l 60 l 75
    flickr

  6. #26
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    Rooz
    Couldn't help but spend ages looking at all the different
    shots in your test - Really quite interesting (to us!!).

    In the first 2 shots the 50mm 1.8 seems a sharper lens, but they do both
    certainly present a different look.
    In 3 & 4 the Sigma is adding a touch of yellow/red more ~ if the Tamron
    is accurate.
    I would be interested to see an identical shot at, say 50mm on all 3
    The 18-200, 50mm, and the Sigma 15 - 50 all at the same settings....
    (My Sigma 17 - 70 is probably nearer to your Sigma than anything else.)
    When I was doing the homework - I spent a lot of time comparing
    images on various lenses - one of the best was the 18 - 200 (which I couldn't afford - or find)
    I felt it was better than the 18 - 135 - which seemed to also suffer from
    CA's quite a bit (fringing)
    The Sigma was slightly more yellow, and the Nikon slightly more blue I
    guess. But in general many D80 shots and indeed many P&S Nikon shots
    seem to have this strong red emphasis. The Sigmas would certainly suit the Canons, as for years I have felt that the canons were slightly on the blue side of things - in fact with the early film EOS cameras I could identify photos taken on one out of a bunch quite easily - even though generally I always saw the Canons as pretty neutral. Grass is usually the givaway - has the look of that slight blue as if it needed a skylight filter.
    Playing with the WB, as I have briefly, has satisfied me that it is fixable.
    I was very pleased with my early morning shot as it really is how it looked.
    I will be interested to see how I fare at different times of the day in different lighting.
    No I won't be changing my Sigma 17 - 70 as it is a terrific walkaround lens, the macro is good on it too.
    Thanks for your hard work and interest in this subject
    Geoff
    Geoff Chandler. UK/England/Surrey
    NIKON D90 / D80. Nikon 16 - 85 VR, Tamron 28-200,
    Sigma 70-300APO, Tokina 100 AT-X Pro D.
    SB600 flash. Panasonic DMC-TZ25

    http://geof777.multiply.com

  7. #27
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    Jan 2005
    Location
    Surrey, England
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    More Red

    Well - I got home from work this evening - just after 7pm and looked at our new 'Bottle Brush plant' - rushed up and grabed the camera and shot off a few shots with recent discussions still buring in my memory...
    So
    Here's the first, I am happy to hear comments good or bad...

    It was Sunshine WB and +2blue which seems to do the trick with the colour during most of the day - Colour space was Type 2 Adobe RGB
    Exposre was -0.7 (and I expected it to be a little darker at that!) Matrix
    ISO 250; 50th sec, F5.6 @ 45mm (= 67mm equiv) Sigma 17 - 70
    Just resized andmminimal USM - radius set at 0.8, amount 35% just to help after the resize
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Geoff Chandler. UK/England/Surrey
    NIKON D90 / D80. Nikon 16 - 85 VR, Tamron 28-200,
    Sigma 70-300APO, Tokina 100 AT-X Pro D.
    SB600 flash. Panasonic DMC-TZ25

    http://geof777.multiply.com

  8. #28
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    Jan 2005
    Location
    Surrey, England
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    This one is the same as above - except 40th sec
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Geoff Chandler. UK/England/Surrey
    NIKON D90 / D80. Nikon 16 - 85 VR, Tamron 28-200,
    Sigma 70-300APO, Tokina 100 AT-X Pro D.
    SB600 flash. Panasonic DMC-TZ25

    http://geof777.multiply.com

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Surrey, England
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    I was happy with my shade of red - but less sure of my exposure!
    Maybe it was the shade of the fence confusing it - or could it have
    been the sunshine on the fence?? I don't know, I really don't.!!
    Had this been important I would have been re-taking the shot at
    an even lower exposure - but it really didn't seem to me like a photo
    that required a lot of compensation (that is until I saw the results!!!)
    Is it more obvious to anyone else out there???

    I think I need to recalibrate my brain - shots like these must need in excess of -1EV - it just didn't
    look like it - unlike the morning shot which did
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Geoff Chandler; 05-20-2007 at 03:50 PM.
    Geoff Chandler. UK/England/Surrey
    NIKON D90 / D80. Nikon 16 - 85 VR, Tamron 28-200,
    Sigma 70-300APO, Tokina 100 AT-X Pro D.
    SB600 flash. Panasonic DMC-TZ25

    http://geof777.multiply.com

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    486
    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Chandler View Post
    Stephanie - thanks for the kind thoughts - I see what you're saying.
    Would it not be the case, however, that I would have to convert every photo I want to keep. Forgive me if I have this completely wrong - as you know i have no experience of RAW.

    But, for example, take my recent Iceland holiday photos: -
    I took around 330 - 340 ish shots.
    I deleted somewhere around 50 or 60. but created around 6 or 8 extras (panoramas, crops etc).
    I probably tweaked a further 20 shots - so, aside from the deleting I will have messed with maybe 30 shots maximum If you count that before the deleted pix it's about 11%, or after it's around 9%
    So rounding it off - I would edit about a tenth of my photos.
    Surely I would have to open and convert/tweak many more if I shot in RAW??
    PLUS - the extra loss of space and speed on the camera
    I am happy with JPG at middle quality - reserving top quality (just a flick of a button) for those special shots - (which actually didn't occur at all on my last holiday) -
    Part of my reasoning for a DSLR was to make life a bit easier and more harmonious - not less. The faster focusing and more accurate exposures etc are supposed to make life better for me as far as photos are concerned.
    I think I am working towards that - I managed it to a degree with both point ans Shoots - If I can't succeed, then the D80 goes! I really don't believe that line of events will happen however as I am sure that all those settings are in there for use and for a reason.
    I enjoy editing, don't get me wrong, but I also have a busy life besides my hobbies.
    If I can manage on 10% editing then I am happy that I got 90% good straight off the camera - and I did in Iceland!
    This Red issue was a problem that I resolved on my A-200 and I am sure once I find a formula it will be possible with the D80. Almost as simple as exposure compensation...?
    I am a family guy and I have a job and friends - If I were single I would give it more time and yes - I guess I would be shooting in RAW.
    I am contemplating another Point and Shoot for my wife for holidays so that sometimes when we go out I will leave the D80 behind and she can just tuck a little camera in her pocket. Something compact as I have no such camera myself (My daughter has though!).
    Does all this make sense - or am I doing this subject to death??
    Well if you put it that way, I can see how shooting in RAW would take more time and effort. But unless all of your shots are going to be of red flowers, or even contain red in such a significant amount that it's going to bug you if the colour is not entirely accurate, I don't think it's going to be an issue.

    With the D80 you have the ability to shoot RAW+JPG, which is what I typically do. The way I see it, you can use JPG for most stuff, and RAW for the more critical stuff, such as the photos where you need to get reds to look exactly right. Or you can just shoot in JPG most of the time and switch to RAW for the more critical shots.

    I've just found that with RAW it's ultimately easier to get colour accuracy in post-processing if you've screwed up the white balance when you took the picture in the first place. And the results are better than if I try to do post-processing on JPG images. There will be times when you won't have an opportunity to go back and try the shot again, so why take the chance of not capturing the shot in RAW?

    You can download one of the RAW conversion software programs and try it free for 30 days to see how you like it. Catpure NX seems to the the most popular amongst Nikon users, but I went with Bibble Lite because I found it less intimidating, and it was a bonus that it was quite a bit cheaper.

    Anyway, it seems as if you're figuring out the red thing on your own and in your own way, so good for you for perservering.

    Stephanie
    My Nikon D80 gallery
    My Fujifilm FinePix F30 and F10 galleries

    SLR stuff: Nikon D80 | Nikon F80 | Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G ED-IF AF-S DX Zoom | Nikkor AF 24mm f/2.8D | Nikkor AF 35mm f/2D | Nikkor AF 50mm f/1.8 | Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM | Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di LD Aspherical (IF) | Tamron SP AF 24-135mm f/3.5-5.6 AD Aspherical (IF) | Nikon SB-600 Speedlight

    P&S stuff: Fujifilm FinePix F30 | Fujifilm FinePix F10

    Accessories: Slik Sprint Pro GM tripod

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