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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Riehm
    Guess we will have to see what happens with Zeiss, and whether the 9D turns into the a200.

    Sonys advantage is a clean slate, but with some history in the Minolta line (I never considered Konica to be a real contributor, but more of the funding unit.

    Sony has some pretty deep pockets, and are more a threat to everyone except Canon... but maybe even Canon down the line.

    Pretty exciting stuff.
    Is it time for Nikon to break free of the dependence on Sony? Canon has it's own sensor R&D which gives it an advantage over Nikon to begin with...but...now with Sony as a direct competitor...in the picture offering the same sensor technology...there has to be plenty of nervous Nikon executives...
    Some Gear: Nikon D700; Nikkor AF-S 50 f/1.4 G; Nikkor AF-S 24-85 3.f/5-4.5 G ED; Tamron 28-300 f/3.5-6.3 VC; Nikon SB-800; Velbon Maxi-F; Canon Pixma Pro 9000; Canon S3IS, Canon SD500; Epson 4990; Epson P5000; Wacom Intuos 3

    Main Software: Capture NX2; Adobe PhotoShop CS2; Corel Paintshop Pro X2 Ultimate

    Sold: Canon XT/350D, EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro; EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Sigma 18-200 OS; Canon ET EF 25II; Kenko Pro 300 DG, Canon 430EX, Canon BG-E3.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTL
    Is it time for Nikon to break free of the dependence on Sony? Canon has it's own sensor R&D which gives it an advantage over Nikon to begin with...but...now with Sony as a direct competitor...in the picture offering the same sensor technology...there has to be plenty of nervous Nikon executives...
    Well actually that's not the way it works. Sony Semiconductor is a separate business unit, and sells CCD and CMOS sensors to a lot of different customers, including Canon (not for dSLR's). Usually there are NDA's in place before a project starts, and I'm betting that Nikon pays well for their proprietary designs.

    Nikon could ill afford to build and operate their own semiconductor plant, and I'm sure that Canon is starting to face some difficulties on this front as well. For reference, a new fab running .18 micron CMOS on 300mm wafers costs about $2-3 billion. Farming sensors out to other foundries like TSMC is not an option either.

    I'm sure that Nikon and Sony have an agreement in place that protects Nikons interests.
    Last edited by D70FAN; 06-06-2006 at 09:12 PM.
    D7000, D70, CP990, CP900, FE.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTL
    Is it time for Nikon to break free of the dependence on Sony? Canon has it's own sensor R&D which gives it an advantage over Nikon to begin with...but...now with Sony as a direct competitor...in the picture offering the same sensor technology...there has to be plenty of nervous Nikon executives...
    Good point. However there's a lot more to a camera than a sensor. For that matter, there's a lot more to a sensor than the sensor. It's a whole computer archetecture with layers of pre-processing and post-processing. Then there's the marketing genious', ergonomic designers, of course lense lineup, reputation, loyal following.

    I think Nikon would have trouble if Sony stopped supplying, but otherwise they're not much worse off than the other like-sized players.

    When the high ISO samples come through, we'll see. If everything above ISO 400 is trash, it'll fizzle. If it's D200-like, then look out.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Riehm
    I'm sure that Nikon and Sony have an agreement in place that protects Nikons interests.
    Like Microsoft and Apple had? Or like Microsoft and IBM had?
    Some Gear: Nikon D700; Nikkor AF-S 50 f/1.4 G; Nikkor AF-S 24-85 3.f/5-4.5 G ED; Tamron 28-300 f/3.5-6.3 VC; Nikon SB-800; Velbon Maxi-F; Canon Pixma Pro 9000; Canon S3IS, Canon SD500; Epson 4990; Epson P5000; Wacom Intuos 3

    Main Software: Capture NX2; Adobe PhotoShop CS2; Corel Paintshop Pro X2 Ultimate

    Sold: Canon XT/350D, EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro; EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Sigma 18-200 OS; Canon ET EF 25II; Kenko Pro 300 DG, Canon 430EX, Canon BG-E3.

  5. #25
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    No reason to be worried about Nikon getting sensors from Sony, Sony has always been a reliable parts partner for everyone.

    And besides, it is not like Sony is the only image sensor producer, there are many more that would not mind Nikon as customer. Or Canon for that matter.
    Canon EOS 350D, Tamron SP AF 90mm F/2.8 macro, Sigma 18-50mm F2.8 DC EX, Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM, Tokina AT-X124 Pro 12-24mm F4, Soligor 1.7x C/D4 DG Teleconvertor, Manfrotto 724B tripod, Canon Powershot S30

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTL
    Like Microsoft and Apple had? Or like Microsoft and IBM had?
    This is Japan we are talking about. A different business culture altogether.
    D7000, D70, CP990, CP900, FE.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Riehm
    This is Japan we are talking about. A different business culture altogether.
    Ah...yes...I forgot...they have something there...I think it's called...honor?
    Some Gear: Nikon D700; Nikkor AF-S 50 f/1.4 G; Nikkor AF-S 24-85 3.f/5-4.5 G ED; Tamron 28-300 f/3.5-6.3 VC; Nikon SB-800; Velbon Maxi-F; Canon Pixma Pro 9000; Canon S3IS, Canon SD500; Epson 4990; Epson P5000; Wacom Intuos 3

    Main Software: Capture NX2; Adobe PhotoShop CS2; Corel Paintshop Pro X2 Ultimate

    Sold: Canon XT/350D, EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS, EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro; EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, Sigma 18-200 OS; Canon ET EF 25II; Kenko Pro 300 DG, Canon 430EX, Canon BG-E3.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTL
    Ah...yes...I forgot...they have something there...I think it's called...honor?
    I worked at Epson for 13 years. In the beginning, we made HP and IBM printers (dot matrix days). Yet, we competed directly.

    I can only say that Epson didn't throw a party when that business went away.

    I don't know if the Sensor mfg. is a separate entity at Sony, but honor aside, it simply doesn't make business sense. Nikon has a lot of leverage with Sony to be sure.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vich
    I worked at Epson for 13 years. In the beginning, we made HP and IBM printers (dot matrix days). Yet, we competed directly.

    I can only say that Epson didn't throw a party when that business went away.

    I don't know if the Sensor mfg. is a separate entity at Sony, but honor aside, it simply doesn't make business sense. Nikon has a lot of leverage with Sony to be sure.
    Sony Semiconductor (where the sensors are designed and manufactured) is a separate business unit, and competes with the other semi manufacturers in the marketplace even for Sony's internal system division business. In some cases the external semi suppliers have a stronger business relationship with Sony divisions than Sony Semi.

    Honor is an odd word here, where I think mutual respect, a common goal, and even camaraderie, would fit better.
    Last edited by D70FAN; 06-07-2006 at 12:02 PM.
    D7000, D70, CP990, CP900, FE.
    50mm f/1.8, Sigma 18-125, Sigma 24-70 f/2.8, Nikon 18-105 VR, Nikon 55-200 VR, Nikon 43-86 f/3.5 AiS, Vivitar 28-90 F/2.8-3.5 Macro, Vivitar 75-205 F/3.8-4.8, SB800.
    Ha! See, I can change...


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldrain
    Canon can NOT make the sensor have IS over the entire lineup, since only APS-C DSLR's can do that because of the reduced image circle. Full frame sensors would get in trouble (ie. sensor moves out of the image circle).
    Actually you could implement Anti Shake on a full frame camera. All that is needed is for the sensor to be larger than a 35mm frame by whatever measure that the sensor can move in a given direction. Granted the camera would then have to crop the image and it would be a "waste" of sensor area, but it could be done.
    Colt
    KM 7D & A200

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