Digital Rebel (6.3) nighclub advise

[amorphic8]

I am primarily a web designer, not a photographer, but I am learning (and enjoying it).

Just picked up a DRebel (300D) Saturday and took it down to the Mixx nightclub at the Borgata Casino in Atlantic City, NJ that night to shoot some photos for a client.

I was using the kit lens 18-55mm and although there was a marked improvement over the photos I had been taking in clubs with my old Nikon 885, I would like to do even better.

The nightclub scene offers several challenges:
1). extreme lighting changes from ambient lighting only (very low light) to full on blinding strobes, spot lights in various colors, etc...
2.) lots of motion of subject and above mentioned lights
3.) subjects at various distances
4.) being bumped into by dancing and intoxicated people all night long

I would like to capture as much of the 'ambience' as possible without the flash. The images I shot on Saturday were a bit grainy and some were blurred (not always a bad thing) or softer than I would have liked, as well.

For the most part I was using:
* P mode
* ISO 800-1600
* Auto WB
* switching between MF and AF
* no flash for 'action' shots; flash sometimes for posing subjects

I was interested the forum's collective advise for capturing better photos under these conditions. ie. what settings I should use to achieve certain results, etc...

A friend suggested that I pick up a Canon EF85mm f1.8 USM Telephoto Lens; buying a lens is not out of the question, but I want to be able to make the best use of what I have, for now. But while I am on the subject, would this lens be a good choice to put on the 'wish' list, or is there a better one in a similar price range?

Some images posted here:
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum48.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum50.html
Thanks.

[Rex914]

If you shoot in nightclubs and other dark spots with no flash, it is imperative that you use primes. There's no way around it if you want grain-free, well-exposed images. You'll also need primes to stop the action if you so wish. The lens your friend recommended is superb, but you might want to take a look at the either of the 50mm's too, depending on how close/far you are from the action. Either way, you need a lens that's at least as fast as f/2.0 if not faster.

[TheObiJuan]

get the 85 f/1.8 and you will be able to shoot wide open and get crisp shots all day long. I would recommend shooting RAW+JPEG to get the most out of your shots.

[24Peter]

Dude - I want your job! :D

Seriously though, I know you're not keen on using a flash but any thoughts from anyone on shooting with the slow-synch shutter/flash, where the flash intially lights the subject but the shutter stays open to capture some ambient light? What about "second curtain" shutter synch? I've been wanting to try these out as they can create some really cool effects esp. in a nightclub setting.

[D Thompson]

The EF85 1.8 is a great lens as Rex says. I just got my copy a couple of weeks ago and I love it. However, for your use it is too long a lens. You'll be better off with a wide & fast lens. Check your shots and see what the usual focal length was. That will be a help as to the prime or zoom range you want. A small suggestion for the 18-55 is instead of P mode, try TV mode set maybe at 1/125, not much slower than 1/60 as other problems pop up. Might try ISO400 with that TV and see what happens.

Dennis

[amorphic8]

thanks for all advise.
I am still shooting with the Canon DRebel 6.3 and the kit 18-55mm lens.
I think I am improving....

Last time I was shooting in P mode, but this time in Tv mode.
I used ISO 800 and shutter speed between 5-20 for most shots. I was also using the flash this time and got some great effects:
subject is clear and sharp, and ambient lighting was also visible.
Maybe this is what you were talking about Peter?

The only problem was that in some shots I got an overexposed subject (white skin shooting in a dark nightclub).

These pics were taken Sunday night back with the body painters at the MIXX nightclub in the Borgata CasinoHotel in Atalntic City NJ; they are the latest and probably the best so far.
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum73.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum75.html

I'd like to keep improving so any comments, suggestions, etc.. are most welcome.

------
I also have some pics posted from the MAXIM magazine All Access party last weekend (June 25) also at the Borgata, but in the exhibit hall.

Most shots were taken in Tv with shutter speed between 15-30, some with flash, but most without.
I think most of these are better than my original post, but some are a little underexposed and blurry at times (especially the fire breather).
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum66.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum64.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum65.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum61.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum59.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum62.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum60.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum63.html

and finally for all you David Letterman fans, here is Kiva the Grindergirl performing her Grinder and broken glass routines at a club in New Jersey, June 16.
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum56.html

[timmciglobal]

Buy a 50 1.8, it's a great indoor lens and at 70$ it's dirt cheap.

Tim

[Bluedog]

"shutter speed between 5-20 for most shots" ... thats too slow to handhold and get sharp results no matter what kinda lens you have ... unless its braced steadily on something or a tripod if not using a flash.

[24Peter]

I was also using the flash this time and got some great effects:subject is clear and sharp, and ambient lighting was also visible.Maybe this is what you were talking about Peter?
Yes. They look great with the flash. Also on the XT at least you can also set the flash for the second curtain to create additional interesting effects.

These pics were taken Sunday night back with the body painters at the MIXX nightclub in the Borgata CasinoHotel in Atalntic City NJ; they are the latest and probably the best so far.
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum73.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum75.html
I'm telling you, I want your job!

and finally for all you David Letterman fans, here is Kiva the Grindergirl performing her Grinder and broken glass routines at a club in New Jersey, June 16.
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum56.html
I REALLY want your job... :D

[barnesquared]

Yes. They look great with the flash. Also on the XT at least you can also set the flash for the second curtain to create additional interesting effects.

How is that done peter? are you referring to the "night portrait" newbie setting on the dial?

ps, how can that setting be duplicated using the custom settings?



amorphic, your shots the second time around look great, such an improvement!

[24Peter]

Check out page 150 of the manual. It's custom function 9 - shutter curtain sync. I'm a little confused as to whether you can do it with the internal flash or if you need an external one. But basically the idea is the main flash fires right before the shutter closes rather than right when it opens. The difference is on longer exposures the ambient light is recorded first with the 2nd curtain setting and then the flash freezes the action rather than the other way around. If you have one of the Canon speelite flashes (I use the 220EX) there is an illustration in the flash manual that describes how this works.

[amorphic8]

thanks barnesquared, 24Peter,
I did notice the improvement as well...
I also did some research on concert photography to help out, too.

24Peter:
as for page 150....hmm my Rebel manual only has 139 pages; are you talking about the XT? I am using the original D Rebel.

Can anyone recommend a book that discusses the challenges specific to digital photography? I have a few books here on general concepts, techniques, etc... but they are for film photography.
Even a Canon specific book would be good if there is such a thing that will help me to get to know this camera very well; I will be buying some lenses eventually, but I don't plan on buying another camera for quite some time...

[24Peter]

Oh yeah, sorry. I'm talking about the XT. Don't know if the orig dReb had that function. But it's probably just a small variation on what you're doing now anyway, which is using the flash and a slower shutter to allow ambient light and create that nightlife ghosting effect. Also, if you're looking for lenses, I'm selling my Canon 28-105 3.5-4.5. PM me for details. :)

[amorphic8]

I know it has been months, but I finally got the 50mm 1.8 II prime suggested way above (timmciglobal); I also picked up a 430EX...

After spending a few days playing with the lens and flash, taking 'throw away' shots at things in my home studio, I finally got a chance to try them out in Providence, RI over this past weekend.

WOW! What a difference!!

Check out this latest round of images:
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum107.html
http://homepage.mac.com/amorphic8/PhotoAlbum108.html
http://latex-mania.com/assets/images/galleryImages/gallery.php?gallery=Ultra_11-26-05&?cur_page=0
http://latex-mania.com/assets/images/galleryImages/gallery.php?gallery=Ultra_11-26-05&cur_page=1

Most shots were taken with:
* Av mode
* ISO 400
* WB auto
* F1.8 ... wide open!
* 430EX in ETTL mode; flash aimed at subject (nightclubs are too open and dark for bounce)
* combination of autofocus and manual focus (autofocus seemed a little slow, but to be fair, the lighting is constantly changing and subjects often moving)

Thanks again for all the months old advise; I spent some time in a mom-n-pop camera store in Jersey City talking to the shop owner who helped explain some of your suggestions to my amateur self and helped me understand my situation and options.
He also mentioned a 50mm F1.4 for about $300+, but didn't seem like he was pushing the sale; suggested I try out the cheaper 50mm F1.8 II first and he would take it back if I felt I needed the 1.4.

I would appreciate comments on these photos and more suggestions...c'mon, I know you like my subjects...

[24Peter]

Well, first off, nice shots. It's great to see someone grow in their skills through dedication and hard work. :)

Second, I still want your job! (Actually I want to be the guy who applies the sparkleys. ;) Check that: I want to be the guy who takes off the sparkleys.:eek: )

Third, I'd do some testing of that lens 'o yours. My 50 1.8 is painfully soft at 1.8. In fact, I never shoot below f 3.5 on it and the sweet spot is around f 4.5. I know you want a low light solution but some of your photos look a little soft to me. Closing down a bit might give you much sharper shots. Alternatively, the 50 1.4 might be a good solution. I haven't tried that lens and while it's supposedly a little soft wide open, I think it's pretty good once you get into the 2's.

[amorphic8]

hey Peter, thanks for the comments.

As I have said many times, I am not a pro, but I think this last round of pictures are certainly an improvement and are clear enough for my client (the people who apply the 'sparkleys'); at least they seemed happy with them.

I did also notice the softness you spoke of, and perhaps the 1.4 would be a more 'professional' choice, but as these photos most often end up in Web photo galleries, shrunken, cropped, j-pegged, etc... I am not sure it is worth the investment at this time. To be fair, the images I uploaded were also resized and compressed (automatically by iPhoto)... perhaps the 'originals' are a better indication. I will post some originals somewhere when I get a chance.

I recently read a comparisson of the lens I am now using (1.8) and the 1.4, and it seemed to indicate that the 1.4 actually had better color and a few other advantages, so in conjunction with your advise, I may eventually pick it up anyway. http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/ef50/

...and finally, as for the person who gets to 'remove the sparkleys,' well, unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure to do it or even witness that myself (except when we paint hired performers such as dancers, and we share a dressing room etc...happens sometimes, but rarely)

Your best bet is to show up at one of the Latex-Mania gigs and bring your significant other; if you're single, you can come down alone and give one (or more) of the 'sparkley' people your best shot; as a last resort, you could get painted and sparkleyed, then peel yourself!