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MrForgetable
05-15-2005, 08:23 PM
Hm.. after playing with the E300 for about 2 hours I am liking it a lot. Possibly because it was the first and only Digital SLR I have used so far, but in my hands the Olympus felt much sturdier than the Digital Rebel or even the XT. I'm interested in the 4/3rds system and the supersonic sensor thing, but after reading reviews it seems as if the image processing is not as advanced as the Canons' and so the picture quality suffers.

But the real reason is that I am so interested can get an Olympus E300, 14-45mm kit lens, and the 40-150mm for a pretty good price of $979 dollars at a local store.


i also played with the Canon Powershot Pro1 and the G6, the Panasonic FZ20 and FZ5. I liked the Pro1 a lot, but I just felt cramped using the ring zoom. Maybe I'd get used to it. But for 600 bucks, I'd rather save it for a dSLR. The G6 was nice, but it just didn't feel right. Maybe because it is because it is being overshadowed by all these more expensive cameras. Haha. FZ20 is awesome, F2.8 12x zoom really is useful. The FZ5 was A LOT smaller, but although sturdy, it felt too plastiky for my liking.

all that said, any of these cameras would be better than my SD300 right now. full automatic is frustrating!



size: does not matter, just not 1dsmarkII size i guess.
price: take it easy, i'm a high school student, i don't have an income. but i am definitely willing to spend up to 1000 dollars (with a kit lens at least)
megapixels: good picture quality > more megapixels (so if the Digital Rebel's picture quality is better than the E300s, DR's 6 > E300's 8)
zoom: give me your best shot
what will i be doing? learning the art of photography. from shooting (photographs of) people to blades of grass in New York. versatile is good. picture quality is better. I like to play with DOF (especially with people). i am an amateur, maybe not even that, so I am a newbie so hopefully the interface is not confusing. i want to look as much as a tourist as possible. HAHA. i will be trying to take quality pictures of anything I can find.

i think I have narrowed it down to dSLRs but if any of you have any other recommendations (dSLR or not) please don't keep quiet. if there is a good value (money to quality of photos) I am willing to listen.

i know the "a good camera is not a free ride to good photo quality" so I am willing to learn and I think it'd be worth it over getting a prosumer point and shoot.

if any of you want to IM me with recommendations, my AIM screenname is "iamwhor3hay". thanks a bunch.

speaklightly
05-16-2005, 05:11 PM
MrForgetable-

I certainly know how it is to be a kid in high school who loves photography. That was me. If it is any consolation or possibly an inspiration to you, I went on to be a Boeing 747 Captain for a major U.S. Airline and a professional photographer who conducts workshops all over the world.

I have closely watched the Olympus E-300 because I really like Olympus digital cameras and have many of them. At the end of my investigation, I decided to opt for the Pentax 1stDS, which is also priced just as well as the Oly E-300 two lens package.

Perhaps it is just my own particular interests, I am not sure. I specialize in travel photos and stage performance/concert type photos. The concert type photos and some of the travel photos require a digital camera capable of operating well within many types of low light venues. Unfortunately, the E-300 will ocassionally work well in a low light environment, but not consistently, day after day.

Because of that I went to the Pentax 1stDS, which has proved to be a very capable digital camera.

Sarah Joyce

jeisner
05-16-2005, 05:44 PM
I would recommend the ist DS as suggested above or the Canon Rebel as you suggested, over the E300... The nikon D70 would also be a good choice although at least where I live (Australia) it is somewhat more expensive (that may be different in you area)...

This is just personal preference, but if you prefer a shallow as possible DOF, you will find the 2x crop factor will actually give a less shallow DOF than the 1.5 or 1.6 crop factor at the same apertures... You can approximate the 35mm DOF equivelant by taken the f stop say 2 and multiply it by the crop factor... So a lens with aperture of 2 on the e300 will give you the equivelant DOF of a f4 lens on 35mm photography... on a 1.5 crop camera it will give you the equivelant of f3.. This is simplified it is a little more complicated than that, but it is a good way to calculate a quick approximation... (http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html gives accurate calculations)..

If you want to do a lot of high ISO photography, you may also find the e300 a little poorer than the other DSLRs mentioned... This is not to say the e300 is a bad camera just that high ISO is not its major strength. If not an important factor to you and you don't mind the slight difference in DOF then the E300 is a good choice too... ;)

Remember people will generally recommend the camera they use, this is not necessarily the one best for you... So try them all and check the features/functions of each. Then you can choose the one best suited to YOU, they are all quality photographic tools...

Rhys
05-16-2005, 05:48 PM
I looked at all of the cameras and my decision is hinging on:

AA batteries just in case or not

Rex914
05-16-2005, 06:24 PM
I looked at all of the cameras and my decision is hinging on:

AA batteries just in case or not

For the forseeable future, that's only Pentax until somebody (probably Canon or Nikon) introduces a cheap, sub-$500 DSLR. I see it coming within a year though. :)

By the way, you might want to fix the typo in your Location profile. ;)

Fromerly South Wales

speaklightly
05-16-2005, 06:28 PM
Rex-

I really do like you vision of a AA powered dSLR! I will be waiting.

Sarah Joyce

jeisner
05-16-2005, 06:56 PM
I'm already there :)

MrForgetable
05-16-2005, 07:52 PM
i didn't get to try the D70.

i'm just frustrated about concentrating on ergonomics or concentrating better photo quailty/more features. if i was concentrating on ergonomics, i'd pick the one that feels closest to the 20D. Out of the Digital Rebel, Digital Rebel XT, and E-300 the E-300 feels nicest (good balance, heft) in my hands even though it looks boxy. If I needed to concentrate on features, I'd pick the XT although it may be a little bit too small.

another thing is expandability. i feel the canon and nikons all I have more 3rd party support and more lenses to choose from. of course this may be a bad thing. the Zuiko lenses are very high quality, but there aren't very many to choose from that are in anyway affordable. i have some time to think about this.

I'll have to look at the *ist DS also. i just heard the kit lens wasn't that good and that's probably what I'd be using until I can get some more lenses.

jeisner
05-16-2005, 10:13 PM
I'll have to look at the *ist DS also. i just heard the kit lens wasn't that good and that's probably what I'd be using until I can get some more lenses.

The kit lens on the Pentax is rather good when compared to the competition kit lenses..

MrForgetable
05-17-2005, 07:28 PM
The kit lens on the Pentax is rather good when compared to the competition kit lenses..

i see. what is a good moderate to long telephoto lens like the 40-150mm on the Olympus for the *ist Ds? I may be weird, but I kind of like rechargable lithium-ions instead of AAs.

speaklightly
05-17-2005, 07:36 PM
No, MrForgetable-

What Jeisner and I are attempting to communicate is that the kit lens that comes with the Pentax 1stDS is quite good, but not truly capable of low light situations.

Sarah Joyce

MrForgetable
05-18-2005, 07:01 PM
yes, i figured that no kit lens would be too good for low light photography, and i'm not too sure I need excellent high ISO and a expensive F1.8 super telephoto zoom. so I think I'd be going with the kit lens or a cheap alternative (like the 50mm Canon F1.8), and a nice, good value for money telephoto lens. Everything "would be nice" but I'm sure that I won't need everything right away. High ISO is nice to have, but if I have to sacrifice ergonomics that will benefit me everytime I shoot rather than those 1 out of a million shots, I'd give up that ISO 3200 picture. I know no camera is perfect, but I have to feel pretty comfortable with it.

Rhys
05-19-2005, 05:35 AM
For the forseeable future, that's only Pentax until somebody (probably Canon or Nikon) introduces a cheap, sub-$500 DSLR. I see it coming within a year though. :)

By the way, you might want to fix the typo in your Location profile. ;)

The Fuji S1/2/3 Pro takes AA batteries. As far as I know the XT does if you buy the extra handgrip.

Personally, I want a standard battery. If I put AA batterries in my flash then I want AA in my camera. If my camera takes some silly funky manufacturer's bespoke battery and my flash doesn't that's a real problem.

MrForgetable
05-19-2005, 04:36 PM
now I'm pretty interested in the *ist DS. but i have one question. is there anywhere I can get some rechargable CR-V3s? i saw one samsung one for 60-70 bucks on amazon!!! maybe i should just get some rechargable AAs...

speaklightly
05-19-2005, 04:42 PM
Mr. Forgetable-

I use regular 2100mah nickel metal hydride batteries (cost $9.95) in my Pentax 1stDS. I have the kit lens, which is quite good, and a Sigma 55-200mm F 4.0 lens ($139) as my starter package.

It has worked out very well for me.

Sarah Joyce

MrForgetable
05-19-2005, 05:04 PM
thanks. i'm going to have to go to the camera store and hold the XT vs the *ist DS again... i guess this is my second big purchase after my macintosh.. i just don't want to make a mistake in choosing the right camera and i'm thinking ergonomics and picture quality are at the top of my priorities.

speaklightly
05-19-2005, 07:19 PM
MrForgetable-

Please be assured that the Pentax 1stDS is fully capable of producing output equal to your photo quality, and ergonomic expectations.

Sarah Joyce

speaklightly
05-19-2005, 07:39 PM
MrForgetable-

Here is a Pentax 1stDS sample photo.

Sarah Joyce

MrForgetable
05-19-2005, 11:32 PM
MrForgetable-

Here is a Pentax 1stDS sample photo.

Sarah Joyce

looks like you brought a full resolution 6mp picture to a 480x320 or something. :p almost looks like moire. but thanks! i am sure the picture quality is awesome and there are many lenses to choose from.

Norm in Fujino
05-20-2005, 03:24 AM
thanks. i'm going to have to go to the camera store and hold the XT vs the *ist DS again... i guess this is my second big purchase after my macintosh.. i just don't want to make a mistake in choosing the right camera and i'm thinking ergonomics and picture quality are at the top of my priorities.

Don't forget the E-300 in all the rush here :D . If high-ISO and sports aren't your first priorities, the evolt takes equally fine photos. Even ISO1600 reacts well to standardized treatment in Neatimage or Noise Ninja. Here's a portrait I took a week ago (ISO100):

http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens/resource/P5161387c.jpg

See more E-300 and E-1 images at http://www.myfourthirds.com

speaklightly
05-20-2005, 05:07 AM
MrForgetable-

Yep, that 6mp image had to be reduced to 460 X 372 to be posted. That is pretty drastic. The original image is a knock out.

Norm-

I love the portrait sample and lots of things about the E-300, but my work really requires high ISO numbers a lot of the time. The fabled Olympus quality shows through in that sample photo.

Sarah Joyce

Norm in Fujino
05-20-2005, 06:11 AM
norm, I love the portrait sample and lots of things about the E-300, but my work really requires high ISO numbers a lot of the time.


Sarah, yes I know from your other work that high ISOs are important to you, and the Canons and Nikons certainly shine there. I was aiming my remarks more to MrForgettable, who, lest we forget, is the one on the fence ;)

Rhys
05-20-2005, 06:37 AM
If you're thinking of Canon, perhaps you should see the gripe I just started about Canon pre-sales service. If ther pre-sales service is this bad, God alone knows how bad their after-sales service will be!

MrForgetable
05-21-2005, 12:39 AM
i like the E300. but wow. zuiko lenses are EXPENSIVE. they are top notch, but boy, they are expensive if i ever wanted to expand my lens collection. there are also much less choices for the 4/3s. i signed up for the fourthirds.com a couple of weeks ago and i'm having fun looking at pictures.

the reason i am leaning toward canon and pentax is that they support many older EF/K (respectively) mount lenses and are adding on new digital only ones like the 10-22mm Canon..

MrForgetable
05-21-2005, 12:44 AM
of course i am not counting the E300 out right now. but there are the dell canon rebel XTs deals where i can find the XT with kit lens for $750 with shipping, so it is getting hard for me to justify getting the E300 when the performance and high ISO performance of the XT is so cheap.

Norm in Fujino
05-21-2005, 12:47 AM
i like the E300. but wow. zuiko lenses are EXPENSIVE. they are top notch, but boy, they are expensive if i ever wanted to expand my lens collection. there are also much less choices for the 4/3s. i signed up for the fourthirds.com a couple of weeks ago and i'm having fun looking at pictures.

the reason i am leaning toward canon and pentax is that they support many older EF/K (respectively) mount lenses and are adding on new digital only ones like the 10-22mm Canon..

Older Olympus 35mm lens can also be used on the e-300 with a free adapter furnished by Oly when you buy an e-system camera.
Sigma also has a number of lenses for the 4/3 mount, and are supposed to add more this year. I'm lucky since my needs are rather more narrow. I have the 14-54, 50mm macro, and Sigma 55-200. I would like to have a wide-angle as well, but will have to save up for it.

MrForgetable
05-21-2005, 12:48 AM
Older Olympus 35mm lens can also be used on the e-300 with a free adapter furnished by Oly when you buy an e-system camera.
Sigma also has a number of lenses for the 4/3 mount, and are supposed to add more this year. I'm lucky since my needs are rather more narrow. I have the 14-54, 50mm macro, and Sigma 55-200. I would like to have a wide-angle as well, but will have to save up for it.
the 7-14mm is wow expensive.

Norm in Fujino
05-21-2005, 02:01 AM
of course i am not counting the E300 out right now. but there are the dell canon rebel XTs deals where i can find the XT with kit lens for $750 with shipping, so it is getting hard for me to justify getting the E300 when the performance and high ISO performance of the XT is so cheap.

Hey, go for it. A guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do. Decide what's best for you and just do it :D
Each camera has its + and -, and you'll experience plenty of learning curve with any of them, if you really try and get the most out of it.

speaklightly
05-21-2005, 09:09 AM
Norm-

I think that is very wise advice. You can never get the photos you missed because you did not have the camera.

Sarah Joyce

MrForgetable
05-21-2005, 10:54 AM
Hey, go for it. A guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do. Decide what's best for you and just do it :D
Each camera has its + and -, and you'll experience plenty of learning curve with any of them, if you really try and get the most out of it.

deciding what's best is the hardest part :)

Rhys
05-21-2005, 11:20 AM
deciding what's best is the hardest part :)

Yup. It certainly is - particularly when you want features of different cameras and backward compatibility as well.

MrForgetable
05-21-2005, 11:45 AM
no, it's difficult when you have held a 20D because that camera is so comfortable to hold. Plus it has the photo quality to match.

HAHA hard to find something when compared with a camera that is 400-500 dollars than you want to spend, without a lens!!!

well i guess it is true. but i'm not totally looking at features. a 1/1000 of a second here, 1/180th there. it just doesn't make too much difference for me. as i said, anything will be an improvement over what i have now. but which one will work with me the best? still trying to figure that out.

flyguy
05-21-2005, 08:51 PM
Hi,just registered to this forum! :p
I had hard time to choose between these 3 cameras(Canon rebel XT,D70,E300).After reading all the reviews about these camera,I'm abit lean towards E300.They all have +and-.I like the sensor cleaner and I find a good price for it except it is a bit noisy compare to other(I'm in tight budget-saving $ for the underwater housing).2 lens kit only $861(Free shipping)from buydig.(Don't know is it really a good deal? :rolleyes: )
The main problem I'm worry is the WB issues of the E300.Took 2 pictures at same setting,same place,only about 40s apart for the second picture but the second picture come out a bit washed out!It happens to some owner.They said it is a defective Auto WB system.Don't know how about yours-Norm in Fujino?

*The WB issues was found out in dp forum.

Norm in Fujino
05-21-2005, 09:34 PM
The main problem I'm worry is the WB issues of the E300.Took 2 pictures at same setting,same place,only about 40s apart for the second picture but the second picture come out a bit washed out!It happens to some owner.They said it is a defective Auto WB system.Don't know how about yours-Norm in Fujino?


I saw the messages over on DP Review, too, and I've read similar remarks in some reviews, which makes me wonder whether it is mostly early-edition models that are affected. Olympus acknowledges that WB is harder to pin down when the shot has no white in the scene, so that's another potential factor. I know that one of the firmware updates was supposed to address the WB issue, and since I upgraded the firmware in mine as soon as I bought it, I don't know how it would perform without it. At any rate, I've never (in my one-month or so ownership) experienced anything that drastic. Sure, shots on Auto WB may be slightly different shot to shot, but only slightly, and I don't consider it uncommon. When I'm shooting, I do one of two things: 1) keep a white card in my bag with me and set a custom one-step WB if the lighting changes. Just takes a second to do, and it gets it exact; or 2) when shooting in RAW, I just leave it at auto since I'm going to want to fiddle with WB in the post-production developing stage, anyway.

MrForgetable
05-22-2005, 05:57 PM
i've "narrowed" it down to 3, the E-300 with 2 lenses, the *ist DS with 2 lenses, or the Digital Rebel XT with kit lens and possibly another lens to go with it. the D70(s) is still in the back of my mind but i can't find it too cheap anywhere.

now, do i want superb ISO 100-200 performance, superb ergonomics and size, or superb high ISO performance... choices choices..

TheObiJuan
05-22-2005, 07:58 PM
If you don't mind the size and weight of the 350D then that is the camera to get.
It has plenty of room for improvement and there are many lenses available, new and used. Over at fredmiranda.com in their buy&sell forum, you can get lenses for cheap.

MrForgetable
05-22-2005, 09:22 PM
the digital rebel XT is kind of at the bottom of my list right now despite it's features. even at it's cheapest $750 with the kit lens from dell with coupons, i still need to buy relatively expensive lenses to get the oly or pentax quality... i like expandibility but it'll cost too much for me initially for a body and a quality walk around lens..

TheObiJuan
05-22-2005, 09:23 PM
i still need to buy relatively expensive lenses to get the oly or pentax quality...

:confused:
The oly or pentax quality is equal to canon's consumer grade glass. ;)
Buy sigma or tamron high quality glass and compete with L glass for cheap.

MrForgetable
05-22-2005, 09:39 PM
:confused:
The oly or pentax quality is equal to canon's consumer grade glass. ;)
Buy sigma or tamron high quality glass and compete with L glass for cheap.

what is a good wide-angle to moderate telephoto lens? (28-100mm in 35mm)
what is a good moderate to telephoto lens? (100-300mm/400mm in 35mm)

just wondering :)

i need to stay below $1000 dollars for the kit. obviously this is a hard restraint, but maybe i can just get the wide-angle only for a while if i get the 350D.

speaklightly
05-23-2005, 09:01 AM
MrForgetable-

Lens choice has a lot of personal likes and dislikes involved in it. But here are a couple suggestions.

Sigma 18-125mm
Sigma 55-200mm

Shop around. Consider purchasing locally where you can try and then return if you don't like a particular lens.

Sarah Joyce

MrForgetable
05-25-2005, 09:30 PM
i was thinking maybe the 50mm F1.8. sounds like a nice sharp cheap lens if i go canon...


but more and more i'm leaning toward the E-300. it is just such a good deal. i don't have as great a lens choice but the lenses that are there are awesome. and frankly, i'd probably live with a 14-45, 40-150, and the 50mm f1.8 just fine :)