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Norm in Fujino
05-13-2005, 08:29 AM
My appreciation to George for starting the thread on RAW converters; it reminded me of something I've been meaning to mention to ObiJuan and any others who are seriously working with RSE: I hope you are all taking advantage of the Pixmantec User Forums (http://mystic.vertexhost.com/%7Ektlaerke/forum/ubbthreads.php) since they're the best way to give the developers direct feedback about your experience with RSE. And as I mentioned in my other message, with the arrival of Michael Tapes, they appear to be giving serious heed to the complaints and wishes.

TheObiJuan
05-13-2005, 11:12 AM
sweet, Thanks!

speaklightly
05-13-2005, 06:11 PM
Norm-

Thanks for beginning this thread. Raw image processing is becoming more and more important. There are obvious differences between the Bibble software, the RSE software, the CS plug-in software, and perhaps even more pieces of software that are in the process of coming to market. You get the idea.

Isn't this a great deal like the Beta versus VHS competition that we saw in the 1980's? Which will be the emerging standard? There seems to be supporters for each software that is out there to process raw images.

Please give me a quick barnyard guess as to when the dust will really settle and there will indeed be one piece of software that becomes the "standard" because it does the best job?

Sarah Joyce

Norm in Fujino
05-15-2005, 06:13 AM
Norm-
Isn't this a great deal like the Beta versus VHS competition that we saw in the 1980's? Which will be the emerging standard? There seems to be supporters for each software that is out there to process raw images.
Please give me a quick barnyard guess as to when the dust will really settle and there will indeed be one piece of software that becomes the "standard" because it does the best job?

Sarah, I'm not even qualified for the barnyard on this one. You're right, it's basically like the old competition to achieve a video standard, but then again different. Which is to say, the problem is not merely finding the best converter, but getting the manufacturers to agree on an open standard for the raw file format itself. That's why right now each manufacturer has its own raw files tagged with its own unique filename extension; Oly's is ORF = Olympus Raw File; Nikon's is (or at least one of NIkon's is) NEF, etc. Each manufacturer records its raw file data differently, so the converter programmers apparently have to reverse-engineer the file data to come up with the proper way to interpret the data and thus support the various file conventions in their converters.

That's also why some people got up in arms regarding Nikon's recent announcement that it was encrypting WB data in some of its raw files. It looked/looks like they're trying to make it ultimately impossible for third-party developers to create converters that can handle Nikon raw files, thus leaving Nikon users with the option of using Nikon Capture, or nothing. Whether that's their real ultimate intent or not seems unclear.

So in the ultimate shakeout, it remains to be seen whether the various manufacturers will ever adopt a common raw file standard that everyone agrees to use (not likely), and only then could we talk about moving toward a top-dog in the converter wars. As it is now, it seems like just about everyone I know of uses several converters, choosing which to use depending on the nature of the original subject and image type. It'll probably remain that way for the time being. What's worse is that some converters seem to handle some camera file type better than others, so people using cameras from multiple manufacturers have that much more to cope with.
I personally feel the strong need at this point to go back to the beginning and do some heavy reading on some basic issues, since everything is additive--you make one small change in one control and it effects every other control you've modified, thus making it difficult to understand by trial and error just how to proceed.
Pretty confusing to this new raw shooter.

D70FAN
05-15-2005, 07:11 AM
Sarah, I'm not even qualified for the barnyard on this one. You're right, it's basically like the old competition to achieve a video standard, but then again different. Which is to say, the problem is not merely finding the best converter, but getting the manufacturers to agree on an open standard for the raw file format itself. That's why right now each manufacturer has its own raw files tagged with its own unique filename extension; Oly's is ORF = Olympus Raw File; Nikon's is (or at least one of NIkon's is) NEF, etc. Each manufacturer records its raw file data differently, so the converter programmers apparently have to reverse-engineer the file data to come up with the proper way to interpret the data and thus support the various file conventions in their converters.

That's also why some people got up in arms regarding Nikon's recent announcement that it was encrypting WB data in some of its raw files. It looked/looks like they're trying to make it ultimately impossible for third-party developers to create converters that can handle Nikon raw files, thus leaving Nikon users with the option of using Nikon Capture, or nothing. Whether that's their real ultimate intent or not seems unclear.

So in the ultimate shakeout, it remains to be seen whether the various manufacturers will ever adopt a common raw file standard that everyone agrees to use (not likely), and only then could we talk about moving toward a top-dog in the converter wars. As it is now, it seems like just about everyone I know of uses several converters, choosing which to use depending on the nature of the original subject and image type. It'll probably remain that way for the time being. What's worse is that some converters seem to handle some camera file type better than others, so people using cameras from multiple manufacturers have that much more to cope with.
I personally feel the strong need at this point to go back to the beginning and do some heavy reading on some basic issues, since everything is additive--you make one small change in one control and it effects every other control you've modified, thus making it difficult to understand by trial and error just how to proceed.
Pretty confusing to this new raw shooter.

Just a quick note on the Nikon encrypted WB issue:

Nikon offers a developers kit for NEF, and is including the WB encrypting for the D2X (the camera that caused the outcry).

After using Nikon Capture for a week (wow a whole week), I have to admit that it does a pretty nice job and, as expected, is certainly keyed more to Nikon cameras.

I will be downloading the trial version of Capture One LE (also $100) to see if Nikon Capture is worth $100 stricktly from a post processing point of view.

P.S. RSE is a very nice general purpose RAW processor, especially for the price! I have recommended it to people using Elements and PS Pro as a good starting point.

Bluedog
05-15-2005, 09:23 AM
After using Nikon Capture for a week (wow a whole week), I have to admit that it does a pretty nice job and, as expected, is certainly keyed more to Nikon cameras.

I will be downloading the trial version of Capture One LE (also $100) to see if Nikon Capture is worth $100 stricktly from a post processing point of view.



The $100 isn't worth it to me, unless maybe your a Professional Photographer selling your work. Between the Free with camera Canon DPP (limited to what it can do though) and RSE I won't be paying for any RAW application anytime soon.

D70FAN
05-15-2005, 05:49 PM
The $100 isn't worth it to me, unless maybe your a Professional Photographer selling your work. Between the Free with camera Canon DPP (limited to what it can do though) and RSE I won't be paying for any RAW application anytime soon.

You might want to download the free trial copy of Phase One Capture One. Just for fun.

http://www.phaseone.com/

Bluedog
05-15-2005, 07:14 PM
You might want to download the free trial copy of Phase One Capture One. Just for fun.

http://www.phaseone.com/

LOL ... I already did per your request the other night. Remember the thread where I was converting RAW images of my house?

Check this out converted using RSE. Only clicked once on Grace's black nose with the Auto White Balance option. No other adjustments. I love this Tamron lens:

Focal Length 75 mm
Exposure Time 1/400 sec
Aperture f/4
ISO Equivalent 200
Exposure Bias -2/3

http://upload.pbase.com/image/43425753.jpg

and click here > for detail in 8MP Image (http://upload.pbase.com/smith_xt/image/43425753/original) ... I'm happy with RSE so for.

Bluedog
05-16-2005, 03:42 PM
I've come to the conclusion that George ignores me ... :rolleyes:

D70FAN
05-16-2005, 04:10 PM
I've come to the conclusion that George ignores me ... :rolleyes:

Sorry Bluedog. Some days I only get to reply in small timeperiods. And other days, not at all. The RSE thread gets kinda burried sometimes, and since I've switched over to Nikon Capture, I'm usually scanning for info on that. As for Capture One...the memory is the first thing to go (I hope).

I definately like the shot and the processing. And you are darned lucky to have a great looking dog to practice using both the Tamron and RSE on. Very photogenic.

This shot should be up on the "show us your pooch" thread, if it isn't already.

Thanks.

Bluedog
05-16-2005, 04:29 PM
LOL ... George I hope you do know I was just trying to be funny ... ;)

Thanks for the compliments as this DSLR stuff has gotten addictive ... :o

D70FAN
05-16-2005, 09:17 PM
LOL ... George I hope you do know I was just trying to be funny ... ;)

Thanks for the compliments as this DSLR stuff has gotten addictive ... :o

Yeah. I just didn't want you to feel too lonely.

Wait until everything you look at is a potential shot. :eek: