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fire365
05-11-2005, 09:18 PM
Wow I never knew you guys got so hardcore about your allegiance to a camera/company. Now for first hand experience other then the fact that I own a d70 is one of my best photographer friends owns an xt. She got it a few weeks ago and let me play with it. WE went out on a nice hike through our local park and we switched cameras periodically (quite a hard thing for me to do by the way letting someone else use my new camera) and I defiantly liked the shots I got out of her rebel but it just didn’t feel as nice in my hands. I also will give canon kudos for what the pack into such a small package. I would have liked a little more time with it to get a better feel for the xt but I do think that I had enough time with it to size it up pretty well. Now as you can see I was saying that both cameras have their respective points, feature wise your really do get a lot out of the xt, but the sketchy build quality that I referred to is the feel of the new, or for that matter the old rebel, in your hands the D70 just feels like a more solid professional camera, its not about the weight so much as the quality of plastics and balance that the cameras have. But I do think that you wouldn’t really go wrong with either camera.

I wanted to leave you with one last piece of advise, the tried and true adage cameras don’t take pictures people do, and of course a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson: “People only see what they are prepared to see” As you can see by the heavy debate in these forums people will only see the validity of a point if it agrees with them. So you can only stay true to what you feel is best weather it be in choosing a camera or in life. So just chill out everyone.

D70FAN
05-11-2005, 09:48 PM
Wow I never knew you guys got so hardcore about your allegiance to a camera/company. Now for first hand experience other then the fact that I own a d70 is one of my best photographer friends owns an xt. She got it a few weeks ago and let me play with it. WE went out on a nice hike through our local park and we switched cameras periodically (quite a hard thing for me to do by the way letting someone else use my new camera) and I defiantly liked the shots I got out of her rebel but it just didn’t feel as nice in my hands. I also will give canon kudos for what the pack into such a small package. I would have liked a little more time with it to get a better feel for the xt but I do think that I had enough time with it to size it up pretty well. Now as you can see I was saying that both cameras have their respective points, feature wise your really do get a lot out of the xt, but the sketchy build quality that I referred to is the feel of the new, or for that matter the old rebel, in your hands the D70 just feels like a more solid professional camera, its not about the weight so much as the quality of plastics and balance that the cameras have. But I do think that you wouldn’t really go wrong with either camera.

I wanted to leave you with one last piece of advise, the tried and true adage cameras don’t take pictures people do, and of course a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson: “People only see what they are prepared to see” As you can see by the heavy debate in these forums people will only see the validity of a point if it agrees with them. So you can only stay true to what you feel is best weather it be in choosing a camera or in life. So just chill out everyone.

Welcome to the DCRP. We were hoping that this period of opinion challenges, and castigation, was at an end...

There is a pretty sharp crew here, including the hecklers (when they aren't heckling). My suggestion is that you communicate with members like Jeisner, Jamieson, John Reed, Bald Eagle, Cold Snail, and Speakeasy, as they are not judgemental, and will help where they can. Eventually I hope that other senior members will do likewise. As for me, as a D70 owner, I'll help where I can as well.

Rex914
05-11-2005, 10:01 PM
Hey, I stayed completely out of the debate this round. In fact, I never even got into the D70 vs. XT debate the first time it came around as I wasn't around during that time either...

I'll admit that I blew a little steam at people poking at Canon in general, but what I countered with was substantiated with quotes like in the case where jeisner was wondering why the Pentax DS wasn't getting any coverage around here.

But the point is made clear here. It's all fine to have a scholarly debate about this all, and for the most part, it was civil, but what's it going to serve? We're missing the bigger picture (no pun intended), and that's to take great photos using whatever we have whether it's an XT, a D70, A 20D, or even an old point and shoot like have right now.

And to end this little post, I'll quote Roosevelt with something all photographers should take to heart if they haven't already.

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."

That sums it up nicely doesn't it?

Bluedog
05-11-2005, 10:17 PM
We're missing the bigger picture (no pun intended), and that's to take great photos using whatever we have whether it's an XT, a D70, A 20D, or even an old point and shoot like have right now.

Well said Rex as they are all fine cameras, even the Pentax, etc. as its a matter of ones choice as to what he prefers to use.

jeisner
05-11-2005, 11:12 PM
I said my piece in that thread on this issue, I will leave it at that!

TheObiJuan
05-12-2005, 03:29 AM
You just got to love those double standards...
If the Canon would have spent a little more money on adding the rubber that is on the 20D to it, the 350D would feel and look so much better. I held a 350D agian recently and the black matte texture just gets to my fingers.
The plastic is the same that the 20D uses, ie the plastic that leaves marks from your fingernails..
The added grip on the 350D sure does make it feel 10x better! Its funny that it has the rubber on it! :rolleyes:

I understand your sentiments on wanting a more proffessional looking and feeling camera, that is one reason I upgraded. I used a friend's 20D with the grip and I am slowly falling in love with it... :p

And George, to label people on this forum, ie me, who defend a camera that they own or owned from attacks from other people is not heckling. I simply try to educate those who do not know, but just read about the camera. There are many people pokin' at the 350D without owning it or using it extensively, just using it for 30 minutes at BestBuy. :rolleyes:

Those you label judgemental, like me, often are just defending what they have spent their hard earned money on. The ones that are judgemental are some users and trolls that come here to poke and prod the 350D. Incidently, some of those happen to be D70 owners. But you seem to be oblivious to this.

As I have stated before
I have no impressions of superiory with my canon 20D. It is a digital slr and takes pictures no different than the D70. The true difference bw them can be measured in a few percentage points.

jeisner
05-12-2005, 04:33 AM
I simply try to educate those who do not know, but just read about the camera.


20>XT>D70(s)>All other sub-$1100 cameras.


I could have easily been one of those that you despise and tell him to get the 20D as it is superior to any consumer Nikon...
But that would be silly and childish.


............

TheObiJuan
05-12-2005, 05:06 AM
............

Thanks for all the effort. ;)

Originally Posted by TheObiJuan
I simply try to educate those who do not know, but just read about the camera.

By educating them I mean I share my experiences with the camera, what I know to be the truth, and trying to stop the bashing, as I have owned one and used it A LOT. What is wrong with that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheObiJuan
20>XT>D70(s)>All other sub-$1100 cameras.

Read the entire thread, the discussion was about technical aspects, as George and others have stated the 350D is technically better, and everyone knows the 20D is better than all the others. Excuse me for not mentioning the *st DS. What is your intention of quoting my statement out of context? ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheObiJuan
I could have easily been one of those that you despise and tell him to get the 20D as it is superior to any consumer Nikon...
But that would be silly and childish.

I assume you misunderstood what I said, I was saying that I could be like those who "feel" the 20D is better, the canon fanboys, but that I certainly am not. I have my preference, but it is not the only or best option in my mind.

Why address my posts and not the ones of others attacking the 350D?
To each, his own.

jeisner
05-12-2005, 05:24 AM
Why address my posts and not the ones of others attacking the 350D?
To each, his own.

I didn't say that was right at all....

No one specifically brought you into the discussion, in fact even on the Canon side you are not the worst offender either. But you made this thread about you by defending yourself when George made a general comment.

I was just trying to suggest with the quotes, specifically the second one, which doesn't fit with the others, that you can't say that all you do is defend unfair statements towards the 350d. That does occur, no doubt, but I do feel some of your posts have been inflammatory too... I am not the only one who feels that way, I can refer also to your posts in the Nikon forum regarding Moiré and your quote that you used in your signature..

jeisner
05-12-2005, 05:35 AM
Here we go yet again.....


Read the entire thread, the discussion was about technical aspects, as George and others have stated the 350D is technically better

This is why I started the technical spec comparison thread as it is NOT flat out 'technically better', it is in some respects but not in others...


and everyone knows the 20D is better than all the others.

I have PLENTY of working experience with the 20D (with some VERY expensive L glass) and it is technically superior in some aspects and technically inferior in other areas that I find important such as viewfinder, LCD and spot metering all factors I PERSONALLY find important... There are others factors that turned me off the 20D but I don't want to start a huge argument here regarding this but as I have said numerous times, different factors are important to different people... You can't just say camera A or B is technically superior, only it has an edge in certain aspects that are important to YOU.

TheObiJuan
05-12-2005, 05:49 AM
Hehe, the quote in just internet banter. ;)
It will be removed soon. I still get kicks out of reading it.
:D

I was one of those addressed by the general comment, so I spoke up.
There was the pissing match that occured last month where many members on both camps threw specs arround and argued which was better untill we all were blue in the face. I was under the impression that we had called it quits, that the 350D bashing was over...

The second quote still stands. In it's proper context it is not inflammatory or deragotory, just the honest truth, technically of course.

I reread the entire thread about the moire and see no problems until your comment about dpreview and me gloating. Another user pointed out that there was still a problem, so I looked at all of the pictures, and found some more. I posted links to backup the original posters assertions and my observations. I mentioned initially that it was not a big deal and could easily be removed, then I mentioned that if the D70 felt right for him, keep it and to not let moire make him switch. But of course you didn't see these constructive comments. ;)

Of coarse this was before I realized his comment was in jest and was him trying to be sarcastic.

Then the lens was blamed, that was just silly, and then Jeff was blamed for being biased. Nevermind that he has mentioned numerous times that he uses what he is sent or has in his collection. Blame Nikon for sending the lenses.

Your DSLR thread is very nice btw, it certainly brings the *st DS into the forground with it's technical specs.

Hehe, what about the SD10?
Kidding, I am just kidding, the list is long already. You have done a great job.


And to get back on topic, Thanks to fire365 for giving the 350D a shot, and letting a 350D owner a crack at your Nikon.

jeisner
05-12-2005, 06:20 AM
The second quote still stands. In it's proper context it is not inflammatory or deragotory, just the honest truth, technically of course.

Your truth, LOL ;)


Of coarse this was before I realized his comment was in jest and was him trying to be sarcastic.

OK, I read it that way from the start, so your post seemed inflammatory to me as it was the Nikon thread and no-one was saying it didn't have moire in the first example.


Then the lens was blamed, that was just silly

No if you read his second post he was not saying the moire was caused by the lens. But you said the image was also soft compared to the Canon image, and he was saying that is not a fair observation when comparing two photos taken with lenses from completely different price ranges... A simple misunderstanding maybe, he did point out in his next post that is what he was referring to.


Nevermind that he has mentioned numerous times that he uses what he is sent or has in his collection. Blame Nikon for sending the lenses.

Was the more expensive Canon lens sent to him or in his own collection? When they are testing the kit sent to them they should test the kit sent to them. They could add some extra with others if they want, but most readers, at least at first, buy the kit. So doing the samples with more expensive lenses from their 'own colloections' for just Canon (Phil on DPReview does the same) is misleading IMHO. But thats going way off topic...


Your DSLR thread is very nice btw, it certainly brings the *st DS into the forground with it's technical specs.

Hehe, what about the SD10?
Kidding, I am just kidding, the list is long already. You have done a great job.


Thanks, it is getting very big though, I wish we could insert tables into these posts, would make it neat at least... I will do the 300D as your requested as for the SD10 and KM, well if someone requests I may add them! :eek:

sarcazmo
05-12-2005, 04:44 PM
I can't believe threads like this are STILL popping up.

The reason I try to come here is to avoid these kind of threads that plague one of the other sites.

As photographers, I think it should be a priority to encourage people to take good PICTURES. The means with which they accomplish this shouldn't really matter as long as they enjoy what they do.

D70FAN
05-12-2005, 04:48 PM
I can't believe threads like this are STILL popping up.

The reason I try to come here is to avoid these kind of threads that plague one of the other sites.

As photographers, I think it should be a priority to encourage people to take good PICTURES. The means with which they accomplish this shouldn't really matter as long as they enjoy what they do.

Don't worry, things are settling down to a mild roar. ;)

TheObiJuan
05-12-2005, 05:36 PM
Why don't we all just come out and say it. This is a resort compared to dpreview. The childish posts plague that place. I never go there because of it. I like FM because the standards are higher and the maturity is much higher. Although most users criticize and make direct commebts when need be, usually it is taken to PM.

I won't add to the fire anymore or defend the 350D, who cares really? I look back and see a trend growing, lets stop it here. 350D and D70 are both great cameras that are geared for different crowds, end of story.
Not better, just different.

I retract any statements that might creep up from past threads as this will remain my official position.

We here should try to keep sarcasm from rearing its ugly head too. ;)
It's only purpose is to provoke an attack, or counter attack, really.

(Sorry for posting this twice).

cwphoto
05-12-2005, 05:39 PM
FFS Guys, give it a rest...

jeisner
05-12-2005, 05:41 PM
350D and D70 are both great cameras that are geared for different crowds, end of story.
Not better, just different.

Exactly!!! :cool:

aparmley
05-12-2005, 06:12 PM
Man! I have really gotta go to the bathroom now!!!!! :D

D70FAN
05-12-2005, 06:19 PM
OK... now what do we talk about? I would like to start the ball rolling on a common subject... RAW processing.

New thread? Done.

fire365
05-12-2005, 07:25 PM
I won't add to the fire anymore or defend the 350D, who cares really? I look back and see a trend growing, lets stop it here. 350D and D70 are both great cameras that are geared for different crowds, end of story. Not better, just different.

Yes thats exactly how I feel I myself think that sarcasm is the real spice of life but thats just me.

I am on bored with the idea that any camera (within reason) can take wonderful shots; it all just depends on the photographer behind the lens. If people would just put the passion that they put into the trivial into their photography then we would have forums filled the next Weston or Adams. (Sarcasm alert just incase anyone can’t tell I’m not bagging on any of the users in here cough cough canon users)

Oh an that’s for the warm welcome George the honest critiques on photos, friendly atmosphere, and the technical advice is what these pages are all about.

ReF
05-12-2005, 07:27 PM
My suggestion is that you communicate with members like Jeisner, Jamieson, John Reed, Bald Eagle, Cold Snail, and Speakeasy, as they are not judgemental, and will help where they can. Eventually I hope that other senior members will do likewise. As for me, as a D70 owner, I'll help where I can as well.

and while trying to stop all the bickering, we should probably try not to alienate people as well.

fire365
05-12-2005, 07:31 PM
Yeah I'm bad the one canon crack is was just a low blow. I will stop now I promise but with the sarcasim thats just who I am it's never ment to be an attack I just can't help myself It's just they way I keep myself sane in insane times.

speaklightly
05-13-2005, 06:39 PM
Attention all fire breathers:

Do you realize that we are gradually loosing some our most senior members of this forum, simply because they are sick and tired of the "fire breathing" that takes place on this forum. It is indeed true, and I hope it will be a "wake-up" call for some who post here.

When senior members (who have announced their departures to me via private e-mail) leave, I personally believe that the forum suffers. Yep, I know you are all macho men with extremely strong feelings, but the end result is that this forum will be a LESSER source of information and technical help. Is that really what you desire?

Warnings about unfriendliness and "fire breathing" between members have become common place on this forum. Indeed, I could be very wrong. However, as I see it, this should be a welcoming place for "newbies." In short, it should be a friendly place. Folks, it is just my opinion, but in many instances, the forum is not a friendly place at all.

www.nikonians.com has people who have posted and HELPED over 3,000 times. We do not have anyone with that number of posts. The new folks who post here very quickly grasp the concept about whether this is a friendly site or not. And it has become an UNFRIENDLY place.

Well, I am sorry and I apologize if I have offended anyone. However, I am staying, temporarily at least, because I believe in this website. But keep in mind, people are leaving every day. Again, I have said my piece, but somebody had to do it.

George is such a gentlemen, he warns folks, and then stuffs it, but folks, we are on a downhill trend, and you had best know it. I will standby for the sling and arrows. Somebody had to say it! Then probably I too will leave too!

Sarah Joyce

Jeff Keller
05-13-2005, 06:59 PM
That childish behavior including name calling is not permitted. If anyone sees a post that violates the forum rules, please click that little "attention" icon next to the offending message to notify me. I will remove posts that violate the rules and repeated offenders will be banned.

D Thompson
05-13-2005, 08:30 PM
Well, I am sorry and I apologize if I have offended anyone. However, I am staying, temporarily at least, because I believe in this website. But keep in mind, people are leaving every day. Again, I have said my piece, but somebody had to do it.

I will standby for the sling and arrows. Somebody had to say it! Then probably I too will leave too!

Sarah Joyce

Sarah - I have only been a member for a short while and have learned much from you and others here. I go way back with film & scanners, not so far with digital. This sites reviews were invaluable to me for the last 2-3 years or so before I made the final jump. I'm glad someone of your status has stepped up and said what needed saying. I hope you stay (I enjoy your shots) and others come back to contibute. No sling and arrows from me.

In the words of Rodney King - "Can't we all just get along?" :)

Dennis