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View Full Version : Nikon D70s - Moire still a problem



diwanh
05-09-2005, 07:02 PM
See the air conditioning unit in the new DCRP sample:

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/nikon/d70s-review/DSC_0011.JPG

:mad:

DownByFive
05-09-2005, 09:34 PM
Guess I better exchange my D70 for an XT, that moire is really out of control...

TheObiJuan
05-09-2005, 09:55 PM
The lens is stopped down a bunch and is using a great lens, yet it is still soft as heck! I dunno, cameras are supposed be about images first, then the rest of the features take importance. Atleast that is my perspective.

Look at the top of the pointed building, there is a bunch more moire. too the far left on one of the buildings there is some jagged green fringing too.
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/nikon/d70s-review/DSC_0017.JPG

here is the 20D's image. it is zoomed in a bit more so it will have more detail, and it also has 2 extra MP wich is even more detail. but the images speak clearly.

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/eos_20d-review/IMG_0312.JPG


if the camera feels good in your hands and you really like it, then get it. The moire can be fixed in capture or some other editing program anyways.

jeisner
05-09-2005, 09:55 PM
Guess I better exchange my D70 for an XT, that moire is really out of control...

ROFLMAO!!!

TheObiJuan
05-09-2005, 10:04 PM
In this picture moire is very visible. In the middle of the image to the lower right of the chinese sign, there are a few patches of moire for no apparent reason. they are not visible on the 20D, nor do I see any reason for it to appear.
good thing the security gate is boarded up in the d70s pic, it would have been on the lower left, otherwise it would have been riddled with moire.

here is the d70s image.
http://dcresource.com/reviews/nikon/d70s-review/DSC_0009.JPG

here is the 20D image, note that it is slightly overexposed.
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/eos_20d-review/IMG_0302.JPG

jeisner
05-09-2005, 10:41 PM
In this picture moire is very visible. In the middle of the image to the lower right of the chinese sign, there are a few patches of moire for no apparent reason. they are not visible on the 20D, nor do I see any reason for it to appear.
good thing the security gate is boarded up in the d70s pic, it would have been on the lower left, otherwise it would have been riddled with moire.

here is the d70s image.
http://dcresource.com/reviews/nikon/d70s-review/DSC_0009.JPG

here is the 20D image, note that it is slightly overexposed.
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/eos_20d-review/IMG_0302.JPG

That sample is worse in my opinion, for the Nikon people does processing teh RAW file yourself make a difference, as compared to in camera processing (jpeg output)...

voka_gsw
05-10-2005, 08:09 PM
The lens is stopped down a bunch and is using a great lens, yet it is still soft as heck! I dunno, cameras are supposed be about images first, then the rest of the features take importance. Atleast that is my perspective.
Hm.. do you think it may have something to do with this:
Nikon D70s: Lens used: Nikon 18-70 F3.5-4.5G ~ 350€
Canon 20D: Canon F2.8L 24-70 mm lens was used for all the shots ~ 1,200 €

jeisner
05-10-2005, 08:54 PM
Hm.. do you think it may have to do something with this:
Nikon D70s: Lens used: Nikon 18-70 F3.5-4.5G ~ 350€
Canon 20D: Canon F2.8L 24-70 mm lens was used for all the shots ~ 1,200 €

Good catch!!!

Reminds me of the Dpreview reviews, he uses the kit lens on samples for *ist DS, D70 and E300 reviews but $1000 lens on the XT/350D for its review, as the kit lens "didn't do it justice"... would be funny if it wasn't such obvious bias...

TheObiJuan
05-11-2005, 12:45 AM
Nice try, but we are not talking about sharpness, detail, color, or contrast. We are talking about moire, which is due to the sensor. Put a 200 f/2 on there and you will get the same moire results.

voka_gsw
05-11-2005, 01:09 AM
Beside moire, you were complaining about Nikon pic being soft compared to Canon 20D pic..

Cold Snail
05-11-2005, 01:27 AM
In 5000 odd pictures, I have seen moire in one of my pictures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v45/coldsnail/DSC_3745-01.jpg

This would trip up any camera, film or digital.

jeisner
05-11-2005, 03:00 AM
Man, it’s like the DPreview forums the canon users go into the Nikon forums not to offer anything constructive but simply to gloat over their perceived superiority...

TheObiJuan
05-11-2005, 11:24 AM
Man, it’s like the DPreview forums the canon users go into the Nikon forums not to offer anything constructive but simply to gloat over their perceived superiority...

I was not the thread starter, or pickin' any fights, I just provided some more examples to append to the original thread starter's post.
The point is that the camera still exhibits moire, if it doesn't bother you, then oh well, but for potential buyers, it could be a problem. I have no impressions of superiory with my canon 20D. It is a digital slr and takes pictures no different than the D70. The true difference bw them can be measured in a few percentage points.

If your post jeisner was directed at me, then you should read my posts cleary and not try to presume I am stirring up trouble. This was in my original post in this thread.



if the camera feels good in your hands and you really like it, then get it. The moire can be fixed in capture or some other editing program anyways.

I could have easily been one of those that you despise and tell him to get the 20D as it is superior to any consumer Nikon...
But that would be silly and childish.

Cold Snail
05-11-2005, 11:59 AM
Says he with a flame filled signature.

http://img147.echo.cx/img147/429/whocantspell0nb.jpg

Oh, by the way, it's spelt Serious.

D70FAN
05-11-2005, 04:53 PM
That sample is worse in my opinion, for the Nikon people does processing teh RAW file yourself make a difference, as compared to in camera processing (jpeg output)...

I'm sure that Jeff intentionallly took pictures that would show off the moire "feature" of the D70 and D70s.

Hah! Try that with your Canons!

Seriously, after using the D70 for 14 months, and going on 8000 frames, moire has not been a problem.

D70FAN
05-11-2005, 05:03 PM
I was not the thread starter, or pickin' any fights, I just provided some more examples to append to the original thread starter's post.
The point is that the camera still exhibits moire, if it doesn't bother you, then oh well, but for potential buyers, it could be a problem. I have no impressions of superiory with my canon 20D. It is a digital slr and takes pictures no different than the D70. The true difference bw them can be measured in a few percentage points.

If your post jeisner was directed at me, then you should read my posts cleary and not try to presume I am stirring up trouble. This was in my original post in this thread.



I could have easily been one of those that you despise and tell him to get the 20D as it is superior to any consumer Nikon...
But that would be silly and childish.

If you have read the posts of folks using the D70, we have not had a problem with moire. Fortunately for Jeff the Trans-America piramid steeple drives the D70 sensor crazy, as do shots of metal window screens at the right distance and angle. So once you know how to generate the effect it can be reproduced.

The D70s is the same sensor with the same (sharp) kit lens with the same agressive anti-aliasing filter, so why would it be different? Again, it hasn't bothered owners, so why should it bother Canonians?

jeisner
05-11-2005, 06:25 PM
I'm sure that Jeff intentionallly took pictures that would show off the moire "feature" of the D70 and D70s.

Agreed!


Seriously, after using the D70 for 14 months, and going on 8000 frames, moire has not been a problem.

Hi George, yeah I know it is not as big of a problem as Canon users like to suggest, I was just curious whether the software (or in camera) used to process the image made a difference... I only ask as I don't ever see it processing my RAW files with Bibble or ACR but I did see it on occasion when the situation was just right and I was using Pentax's RAW processing software... Obviously we share the same sensor...

TheObiJuan
05-11-2005, 06:25 PM
Says he with a flame filled signature.

http://img147.echo.cx/img147/429/whocantspell0nb.jpg

Oh, by the way, it's spelt Serious.

I know how it is spelled, but I quoted the entire phrase for its comic value. I don't need to make changes, if you have a problem with spelling. address the original poster. :rolleyes:

D70FAN
05-11-2005, 10:24 PM
Agreed!



Hi George, yeah I know it is not as big of a problem as Canon users like to suggest, I was just curious whether the software (or in camera) used to process the image made a difference... I only ask as I don't ever see it processing my RAW files with Bibble or ACR but I did see it on occasion when the situation was just right and I was using Pentax's RAW processing software... Obviously we share the same sensor...

Nikon Capture is capable of removing most moire. Fortunately, I don't have a NEF test photo with moire handy. I think if you just desaturate the moire'd area a little that will at least get rid of the color banding.

Again it hasn't been an issue. While we share the same sensor, I think that Nikon's anti-aliasing filter is a little more agressive which opens it up to potential moire effects.

JTL
05-12-2005, 02:54 PM
See the air conditioning unit in the new DCRP sample:

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/nikon/d70s-review/DSC_0011.JPG

:mad:Hey...some people like that effect and have paid good money to buy a camrea that produces it so well! I think it's a feature! And the fact that it shows up in only a few shots now-and-then in actual practice makes those shots all the more special!

thesween
05-12-2005, 03:40 PM
25 years plus as a serious amatuer photog, 25 years of shooting 35mm and 6x6mm film of all kinds, types, speeds, etc., and I never once came acrosss moire. A year or so of digital and I see it in frames here and there. My first genuine "keeper" done with my new D70 had moire. Kinda annoyed me, if you really want the truth.

Digital, and God I love it, isn't without its shortcomings, obviously...

jeisner
05-12-2005, 04:19 PM
Hey...some people like that effect and have paid good money to buy a camrea that produces it so well! I think it's a feature! And the fact that it shows up in only a few shots now-and-then in actual practice makes those shots all the more special!

{edit} inappropriate response to what I see as an inappropriate post...

JTL
05-12-2005, 04:39 PM
piss off troll....Tell me, should that comment be considered as an example of your wry wit? If so, then I chalk up my confusion as to the nature of the comment to the simple vagaries of typing. But, if you really intended to rude (although I would find this truly hard to fathom), I will have to lodge a serious complaint with the administrator. What shall it be?

DiJ
05-12-2005, 04:58 PM
Moire is present and can appear in images with repeating patterns such as fabric, grilles, tiles, text that have freq close to the sensor nyquist freq. But these are a non issue with most D70 users as most of them are RAW only shooters.
With jpeg only way to diminish moire is to use lens with less accutance(softer) or to defocus one with high accutance. Therefore saying that the images are soft here due to the kit lens is also illogical. The presence of moire means the kit lens easily provides resolution up to the limit of the sensor. But again softness is a non issue if you shoot in RAW.
Clearly having all the samples taken here in jpg is doing the D70 an injustice. What I was surprised to see is the presence of noise in the sky at the lowest iso setting.

jeisner
05-12-2005, 05:02 PM
Tell me, should that comment be considered as an example of your wry wit? If so, then I chalk up my confusion as to the nature of the comment to the simple vagaries of typing. But, if you really intended to rude (although I would find this truly hard to fathom), I will have to lodge a serious complaint with the administrator. What shall it be?

mmm, well I was intentionally being a smart arse, as was your post...

But I do believe I was responding to your completely unneccesary sarcastic comment, which was trolling IMO.... so if you want to complain, then please feel free to do so....

This forum has become a joke anyway, I just love how the Canonites claim they do not troll they are just defending their cameras as 'we' all pick on 'them'... what a joke...

DiJ
05-12-2005, 05:11 PM
Please go easy on that word here. We do not want to turn this into another dpreview forum. JTL is just stating his opinion. Try not ot be overly defensive about a certain equipment. After all these are just tools we are discussing. Some canons users did defend their tools but I have to yet to see them launch a personal attack. You certainly dont need to do that.

TheObiJuan
05-12-2005, 05:16 PM
piss off troll....

<adds gas to fire>


Way to set the example?
You could have just said that his comments were not necesary, or expressed your true feelings via private message.

I really like your last comment about the "defending canonites" that was icing on the cake. :rolleyes:

Civility must begin somewhere, let it not end with you, but rather flourish.

jeisner
05-12-2005, 05:19 PM
Please go easy on that word here. We do not want to turn this into another dpreview forum. JTL is just stating his opinion. Try not ot be overly defensive about a certain equipment. After all these are just tools we are discussing. You dont need to attack him like that.

Read his post there is no opinion or contribution to the thread, he is using sarcasim to attack D70 owners... I don't own a D70 not have any investment in Nikon lenses/equipement... But I am sick of that attitude it is the entire reason I avoid the Nikon section of DPreview as it is the same trolling that goes on there.... The pentax forum gets hit too from time to time, but not as bad as the Nikon guys... I am not the one turning this into that, posts like his are IMO... I apologise for the severe reaction, but that attitude sh*ts me...

Obviously I am not the only one who sees this, but it seems none of the Canon users see it!

jeisner
05-12-2005, 05:23 PM
Way to set the example?
You could have just said that his comments were not necesary, or expressed your true feelings via private message.

Ahh whatever, he trolls I am evil... ;)

your right I overreacted :eek: but I have tried to be civil on these forums for the last month? and I guess lately I have been getting sick and tired of the FACT that this forum is looking as bad as the other forum that people don't want to be compared to...

TheObiJuan
05-12-2005, 05:34 PM
Why don't we all just come out and say it. This is a resort compared to dpreview. The childish posts plague that place. I never go there because of it. I like FM because the standards are higher and the maturity is much higher. Although most users criticize and make direct commebts when need be, usually it is taken to PM.

I won't add to the fire anymore or defend the 350D, who cares really? I look back and see a trend growing, lets stop it here. 350D and D70 are both great cameras that are geared for different crowds, end of story.
Not better, just different.

I retract any statements that might creep up from past threads as this will remain my official position.

We here should try to keep sarcasm from rearing its ugly head too. ;)
It's only purpose is to provoke an attack, or counter attack, really.

jeisner
05-12-2005, 05:43 PM
350D and D70 are both great cameras that are geared for different crowds, end of story.
Not better, just different.

Thats what I have been trying to say since this all started, thanks for extending the olive branch (understanding)... I hope in time others feel the same way! :cool:

JTL
05-12-2005, 05:49 PM
Ahh whatever, he trolls I am evil... ;)

your right I overreacted :eek: but I have tried to be civil on these forums for the last month? and I guess lately I have been getting sick and tired of the FACT that this forum is looking as bad as the other forum that people don't want to be compared to...You're still calling me a troll? I don't have a right to post a comment? I didn't attack you or anyone. I merely added a comment to the thread that was directed to the ORIGINAL poster. But, YOU ATTACKED ME! THAT"S RIGHT! I CONSIDER IT A PERSONAL ATTACK AND I WILL RESPOND APPROPRIATELY. And, to add insult to injury, you continue to attack me! Plus, I found your use of foul language extremely offensive. What gives you the right, and who appointed you god that you should launch a personal attack against me? Huh? I am waiting for an adequate explanation of your behavior and a complete and satisfactory apology. Or is that beyond the scope of your ability?

TheObiJuan
05-12-2005, 05:50 PM
JTL I understand completely where you are coming from, but PM is the best way to resolve issues. Usually all of the bravado and machismo drops and honesty can be heard.

jeisner
05-12-2005, 05:57 PM
You're still calling me a troll? I don't have a right to post a comment? I didn't attack you or anyone. I merely added a comment to the thread that was directed to the ORIGINAL poster. But, YOU ATTACKED ME! THAT"S RIGHT! I CONSIDER IT A PERSONAL ATTACK AND I WILL RESPOND APPROPRIATELY. And, to add insult to injury, you continue to attack me! Plus, I found your use of foul language extremely offensive. What gives you the right, and who appointed you god that you should launch a personal attack against me? Huh? I am waiting for an adequate explanation of your behavior and a complete and satisfactory apology. Or is that beyond the scope of your ability?

I WILL apolagise for being offensive, I was angered by your post and so I am sorry for overreacting and offending you as I obviously have greatly....


However I can't pretend I didn't think I found your post sarcastic and unnecessary, contributed nothing to the thread other than to insult Nikon users... I don't think I am the only one who read it that way either....

JTL
05-12-2005, 06:01 PM
JTL I understand completely where you are coming from, but PM is the best way to resolve issues. Usually all of the bravado and machismo drops and honesty can be heard.
His attack was just plain wrong...I did nothing to warrant a personal attack. And, I have taken the appropriate action...


Thanks for speaking up. I apologize if you feel that I'm taking up any more time on this than is necessary to assure that this kind of thing stops here and now. But honestly, how am I supposed to take something like this? It's the forum equivalent of being cold-cocked. But, I refuse to be silenced by what are essentially “Camera Bullies”. The very thought that someone would curse someone out over a comment in a camera thread is too ridiculous to even seriously imagine. Yet, it happened.

DiJ
05-12-2005, 06:08 PM
Lets end this. He has already apologized in good sense.

JTL
05-12-2005, 06:09 PM
I WILL apolagise being offensive, I was angered by your post and so I am sorry for overreacting and offending you as I obviously have greatly....

However I will not apolagise for thinking your sarcastic post was unnecessary and contributed nothing to the thread other than to insult Nikon users... I don't think I am the only one who read it that way either....If you were "angered" by my post, then I my opinion, you're taking this stuff way too seriously. Angered? Really? You would actually use the word angered? This thread is something to get angry about? Forgive me if I have a hard time understanding that.

Well, I will continue to express my opinion wherever and whenever I please. And since I have no control over what "angers" you, I really don't know what to say about that...maybe you should avoid reading and responding to my posts.

JTL
05-12-2005, 06:11 PM
Lets end this. He has already apologized in good sense.It's over if he stops the attacks...but for what its worth, he really didn't apologize...

jeisner
05-12-2005, 06:22 PM
It's over if he stops the attacks...but for what its worth, he really didn't apologize...

I believe I did apolagise!


Well, I will continue to express my opinion wherever and whenever I please.

Likewise!


And since I have no control over what "angers" you, I really don't know what to say about that....

Well do you think your post was sarcastic?

Do you think it contributed anything in the Nikon forum considering you are a Canon user?

JTL
05-12-2005, 06:42 PM
I believe I did apolagise!Oh...I see that your edited post does now read like a real apology. You must fancy yourself as very clever. Well, I accept your edited post apology. Unless, of course, you decide to edit it again and turn into another non-apology...

Do you want to stop now?

jeisner
05-12-2005, 07:14 PM
Oh...I see that your edited post does now read like a real apology. You must fancy yourself as very clever. Well, I accept your edited post apology. Unless, of course, you decide to edit it again and turn into another non-apology...

LMAO, whatever.... Your right I shouldn't have edited it (they can see my original in your quote anyway if they want, the meaning is no different IMO) and others read it as an apology the first way I changed it as you didn't...

The simple fact is I apolgised for reacting badly to your post BUT I can't apologise for finding your sarcasm to be rude, it just is IMO....


Do you want to stop now?

do you?

jeisner
05-12-2005, 07:41 PM
One last thing I have apologised for being rude to you, but I think YOU should apologise, not to me but to the Nikon users for your sarcastic joke at their expense.

They don't go into the Canon section and do that to you do they?

EDIT: I am finished here, nothing more from me.... :cool:

D70FAN
05-12-2005, 08:15 PM
Tossing out the old moire discussion is old news, and not a necessary discussion here, as we D70 owners know all about it. And to be honest it has been and is still a non-issue. But some seem determined to make it an issue.

And while it may be considered informative to certain people here I have the following request...

...This is only a request, so don't make something out of it, but since some of you are adding nothing to the knowlege base, or legitamate discussion, here you should consider going elsewhere.

If you have something of value to contribute then it would be greatly appreciated.

I think (and hope) that we have pretty much settled differences on the other boards, and I'm sure we, on the Nikon dSLR board, would all appreciate the same courtesy from members of the other boards.

Thanks.

Rex914
05-12-2005, 08:36 PM
Oh my god. I never noticed this. So this is the kind of thread you (George) and others were talking about.

Guess why I didn't see it or care about it? After that first Xt/D70 wars thread, I just closed the tab on the entire "manufacturer specific forums" and basically hid it entirely from my view. That helps a lot if you are unable to restrain the urge...

But on the moire issue...

It's a personal choice. There aren't a whole lot of situations where moire can become much of an issue, besides taking pictures of intricate fabrics... maybe. If something comes out with moire, and it makes sense that it would come out with moire, just take the shot (at different angles, positions, etc.) and forget about it. It's not like moire just mysteriously crops up randomly out of nowhere. Or am I totally misinformed about how moire comes about?

Edit: By personal choice, I mean personal choice in how you deal with the moire problem, not personal choice of camera or any of that nonsense.

D70FAN
05-12-2005, 09:03 PM
Oh my god. I never noticed this. So this is the kind of thread you (George) and others were talking about.

Guess why I didn't see it or care about it? After that first Xt/D70 wars thread, I just closed the tab on the entire "manufacturer specific forums" and basically hid it entirely from my view. That helps a lot if you are unable to restrain the urge...

But on the moire issue...

It's a personal choice. There aren't a whole lot of situations where moire can become much of an issue, besides taking pictures of intricate fabrics... maybe. If something comes out with moire, and it makes sense that it would come out with moire, just take the shot and forget about it. It's not like moire just mysteriously crops up randomly out of nowhere. Or am I totally misinformed about how moire comes about?

I'm honestly not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but I would like to believe that you are not and go on.

No, moire is not random, but there actually are ways of minimizing the effect, by shooting at a different angle, or zoom range. And for the occasional shot where it does become inevitable, it can be post processed to a minimum. Fortunately, I'm not an expert on the post processing part as I haven't had the need to do it yet. But maybe someone else here has.

P.S. Thanks for the Camera and Lens guides. I just hope more people read them. Very well done.

Rex914
05-12-2005, 09:51 PM
I'm honestly not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but I would like to believe that you are not and go on.


I'm not the sarcastic type. Sorry if it sounded at all like I was joking around.

D70FAN
05-13-2005, 06:41 AM
I'm not the sarcastic type. Sorry if it sounded at all like I was joking around.

Thanks Rex,

Still a little suspect I guess.

JTL
05-13-2005, 07:04 AM
I'm not the sarcastic type. Sorry if it sounded at all like I was joking around.See what's happened here...a bully has made you afraid to be perceived as "joking around". And you apologized to him...

He was ready to pounce. And he later says he's still suspicious. Like anyone should care.

If you don't mind being bullied, that's fine. I for one will joke around all I want.

jacob
05-13-2005, 03:19 PM
im new here, but, this nit-picking and what not is unreal. lol
what I'd like to know is HOW MANY people see your pictures on average? and out of those people, HOW MANY are professional photographers?
I mean really, if you're shooting for galleries or editorials (you can still edit moire) if you notice any...and UNLESS it's for an AD or some sort of marketing campaign, guess what?...you can STILL edit them...regardless, to the AVERAGE person (and pairs of eyes)...if the picture is composed well, things that are required to be in focus and lighting and exposure is right...i HIGHLY doubt anyone will say..."my god, there's some moire in that photo! :eek:"...
...come on get a grip (except vertical on the D70..pun intended)...out of the 2000+ pictures i've taken with my D70, of the hundred or so that i think are decent, a lot of other NON-PHOTOGRAPHIC experts love(d) the pics...let's not lose perspective here...if that's the case you're not gonna enjoy the hobby/job as much and you're gonna let every little detail drive you absolutely nuts.
k im done...(pretty bold for a 2nd post:D)

little footnote...the Nikon/Canon BS is BS...and for anyone over the age of 18, debating which is better or bragging or gloating...grow up...my 8year old cousin has taken some impressive pictures with her disposable camera (yes film) that would put the lot of you to shame, regardless of your equipment.
Much like well, someone driving a porsche on a highway, doing 90mph and still not knowing how to drive properly...versus me, in my honda civic and knowing exactly how to drive...period.
tools are great, but it's how you use them, let's not lose perspective.

has anyone else noticed that the original poster of this thread, has only made one post?...THIS ONE?
http://www.dcresource.com/forums/member.php?u=6861
profile above, look and count the number of posts.
obvious troll and flamer

Rex914
05-13-2005, 03:34 PM
my 8year old cousin has taken some impressive pictures with her disposable camera (yes film) that would put the lot of you to shame, regardless of your equipment.
Much like well, someone driving a porsche on a highway, doing 90mph and still not knowing how to drive properly...versus me, in my honda civic and knowing exactly how to drive...period.
tools are great, but it's how you use them, let's not lose perspective.

Apart from about a dozen or so people, the rest of use here don't use fancy gear nor do we really care. Take a look in the photo gallery before you say things like that. The vast majority of those pictures were taken using simple point and shoots. I myself am still working with a 5 year old point and shoot too. These threads you're noticing are anomalies.

Please enjoy your stay here and don't get put off by threads like these as this isn't commonplace here.

jacob
05-13-2005, 03:41 PM
Rex before I say things like what?
I'm speaking what I've seen and what I see.
I didn't SAY EVERY person in here has pictures under par to my cousins, did I?
You're echoing essentially what I just said, but in other words.
The end, and thanks :)

D70FAN
05-15-2005, 06:11 PM
See what's happened here...a bully has made you afraid to be perceived as "joking around". And you apologized to him...

He was ready to pounce. And he later says he's still suspicious. Like anyone should care.

If you don't mind being bullied, that's fine. I for one will joke around all I want.

JTL, this conversation does not require your participation. Stop being an instigator...

Jeff Keller
05-15-2005, 08:07 PM
Come on people...