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Rhys
05-05-2005, 09:40 AM
I've looked into the reviews of all the dSLRs and read people's opinions of all their dSLRs, listened to the problems and the benefits of all of them and have come to one inescapable conclusion - there just isn't a "best" dSLR. It seems to me that unlike SLRs where quality depends entirely upon the film and lens - the actual SLR taking very much of a backseat - there's a lot more involved with dSLRs.

The good points seem to be:
Olympus - anti-dust sensor
Minolta - anti-shake sensor
Nikon - Possible to use a manual, mechanical backup camera on the same lenses
Canon - low power-consumption
Fuji - AA batteries
Pentax - AA batteries


Aside from that, there seems little difference. All have photo quality that has been described as too soft. I know it can be sharpened and tweaked by fiddle-faddling with RAW format files but that's hardly what the end user (IE me) would ever wish to do. Thus, I'm looking purely at JPEG output.

Ant
05-05-2005, 10:42 AM
Not sure about the others but on Nikons and Canons you can alter the level of sharpness applied in-camera to the jpg file.

JTL
05-05-2005, 12:19 PM
I've looked into the reviews of all the dSLRs and read people's opinions of all their dSLRs, listened to the problems and the benefits of all of them and have come to one inescapable conclusion - there just isn't a "best" dSLR. It seems to me that unlike SLRs where quality depends entirely upon the film and lens - the actual SLR taking very much of a backseat - there's a lot more involved with dSLRs.

The good points seem to be:
Olympus - anti-dust sensor
Minolta - anti-shake sensor
Nikon - Possible to use a manual, mechanical backup camera on the same lenses
Canon - low power-consumption
Fuji - AA batteries
Pentax - AA batteries


Aside from that, there seems little difference. All have photo quality that has been described as too soft. I know it can be sharpened and tweaked by fiddle-faddling with RAW format files but that's hardly what the end user (IE me) would ever wish to do. Thus, I'm looking purely at JPEG output.
I am compelled to disagree with your assessment. There is, in my opinion (and I stress in my opinion so that the attack dogs don't get all in a tizzy), a best dSLR that is affordable by mere mortals...the Canon 20D* (in my opinion).

I think if you asked people (including some fans of other brands) they would tend to agree. This is also merely my opinion.

*Disclaimer:
The opinions stated, as they appear in this post, are solely the opinions of the respondent and are not to be construed as categorical statements or as anything other than opinions as defined by Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition which specifically defines an opinion as: A view, judgment or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter. These opinions are subject to change without prior notification, and, in which case, the respondent shall be held harmless in all matters relating to and resulting from the opinions, the changing of the opinions and all other opinions that may result as a consequence of a change in opinions or the holding of the original opinions, whichever may come first, in perpetuity.

j26
05-05-2005, 01:14 PM
The "best" is what suits you.

On paper (and as some here will say, in reality) the EOS 350D is better than the Nikon D70, but I tried holding them and the Nikon felt better to me. Since I will be spending quite a bit of time holding my new toy that was important to me. Others will value weight, picture quality, features etc. There's feck all difference between them, but minor differences can be important. Every dSLR will be very good, each with its' own minor peculiarities.

I disagree that there is no best dSLR. There is - but the best for me is not necessarily the best for you.

Ultimately a camera is a tool. Use the one that suits your need best and has the features you want.

Jredtugboat
05-05-2005, 01:43 PM
I think what I've read so far about all the fine DSLRs out there so far has taught me that we're not there yet in terms of price and performance. I could slight all of those cameras for being less than full frame, for example, unless we're including the three of four full-frame cameras that are out of an ordinary mortal's reach.

No man steps in the same river twice. We could play the waiting game forever (always with a weather eye on the horizon for the next big thingz) or we can close our eyes, take a breath, and buy something.

I do agree with my comrade above who said, "The best is what works for you", with all the subtleties that that entails.

yours,

Julian

TheObiJuan
05-05-2005, 01:45 PM
20D for those who require the most, for the least.
New they can be had for $1240 with the rebate.

aparmley
05-05-2005, 02:13 PM
*Disclaimer:
The opinions stated, as they appear in this post, are solely the opinions of the respondent and are not to be construed as categorical statements or as anything other than opinions as defined by Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition which specifically defines an opinion as: A view, judgment or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter. These opinions are subject to change without prior notification, and, in which case, the respondent shall be held harmless in all matters relating to and resulting from the opinions, the changing of the opinions and all other opinions that may result as a consequence of a change in opinions or the holding of the original opinions, whichever may come first, in perpetuity.
LOL @ JTL

I agree with j26 when he says "The best is what suits you"

Side note: You can't dismiss the canon XT and 20D's high ISO performance.

D Thompson
05-05-2005, 02:41 PM
The "best" is what suits you.

I disagree that there is no best dSLR. There is - but the best for me is not necessarily the best for you.

Ultimately a camera is a tool. Use the one that suits your need best and has the features you want.

No disclaimer like JTL :D and I agree with j26. This is just my experience and opinion. I held onto my old Canon ae1p film as long as I could. I looked and thought about countless digi's over the last 3-4 years. I never could get "the one" that felt right and met my needs. Lord knows I came very close to buying one several times, but held out. Last October hooked me when I saw the Canon 20D. I had read the reviews and pre hype, but once I picked it up, it wasn't leaving my hand. I love it and it fits my use well. It may not fit yours, that is a decision we all have to make. Thank goodness for sites like this and others where you can get info, although sometimes too much info can confuse. I'm having that with a lens choice :confused: If it will do what you want and it feels good in your hands, then get it and don't look back!

Dennis

JTL
05-05-2005, 02:47 PM
LOL @ JTLI am glad you liked it. This is how amuse myself instead of working.:D

I agree with j26 when he says "The best is what suits you"
I gotta tell you, this "what suits you" stuff is starting to stick in my craw. We've been brow-beaten into being afraid to state our opinions and preferences. If someone said "Gee, I'm thinking about buying a used Ford Pinto", would you say "whatever suits you..." ? No! You'd say "Whadda'ya nuts?" Some things ARE better than others. And if we've come to feel that way...we should be honest about it...and not hide behind the politically correct answers.* Ah...I guess I'm just cranky today and looking for a fight...



*Disclaimer:

The respondent is not endorsing any particular political viewpoint nor is the respondent implying that a particular political orientation is preferable, insofar as such orientation may be construed to have meaning beyond any and all points that may or may not be qualified in the response. Furthermore, all rights and warrants associated with the holding of a particular political viewpoint by the respondent in relation to the response in question shall be deemed forthwith to have no meaning whatsoever beyond its original intent, the definition of which is at the sole discretion of the respondent and may change without prior notice.

Rhys
05-05-2005, 03:12 PM
My problem is that I look at the advantages of each of the dSLRs and want all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.

I'd like a dSLR with a 4:3 format, anti-dust sensor, anti-shake sensor, AA batteries, low power consumption and which also allows a manual, mechanical film-powered backup camera to be used with the same lenses.

Interestingly, that counts out all the current dSLRs. Notice I've said nothing about image quality/size or functionality yet.

In terms of image quality/size, I want something that'll give me a fantastic double-elephant folio-sized print (29 x 41 inches) as I figure that's the maximum size anybody will ever want in terms of printsize. In terms of megapixels at 150dpi, this would be 4350 x 6150 or 26.75 megapixels. The highest size I've thus far seen has been a Mamiya at 22 megapixels - which comes close enough to make little difference.

As far as functionality is concerned, I want to be able to focus by twisting the lens barrel or by using a camera-mounted servo. I don't want lenses with built-in electronic junk. Rather than having possibilities for electrical failure spread throughout the system, I want it all in one place so that I have to replace just one unit rather than several or being left wondering whether the lens is at fault or the camera. I also want quick, accurate focussing. IR laser beams would seem to be ideal in this instance yet few manufacturers seem to employ them. I want to have accurate focus checking in the viewfinder for occasions when I must focus manually. I want to be able to use flashes of all ages and styles, not just funky new electronic all-singing-all-dancing flashes that never quite perform as advertised.

Do I want my cake and eat it? Yes - most certainly since it'd be my money paying for a dSLR and I want to make darned sure that I get at least twice the milage for my money and have a camera that will last at least 20 years without repairs.

j26
05-05-2005, 03:18 PM
I gotta tell you, this "what suits you" stuff is starting to stick in my craw. We've been brow-beaten into being afraid to state our opinions and preferences. If someone said "Gee, I'm thinking about buying a used Ford Pinto", would you say "whatever suits you..." ? No! You'd say "Whadda'ya nuts?" Some things ARE better than others. And if we've come to feel that way...we should be honest about it...and not hide behind the politically correct answers.* Ah...I guess I'm just cranky today and looking for a fight...


Trouble is if he wants a Pinto (no idea what they're like) let him have it. Why do you have to impose your values on someone else? Sure suggest options, but let the guy alone if he's made up his mind. People still want vintage VW Beetles - are they mad because you want a ferrari? What about the person who wants to bring his large family - which is better, the ferrari, or a 7 seater.

"Best" is subjective not objective. We could spend the evening willy waving about why X camera is better than Y, but at the end of the day, maybe I want a camper van and you want a SUV.



Apologies for excessive car references.

Rex914
05-05-2005, 03:53 PM
I gotta tell you, this "what suits you" stuff is starting to stick in my craw. We've been brow-beaten into being afraid to state our opinions and preferences. If someone said "Gee, I'm thinking about buying a used Ford Pinto", would you say "whatever suits you..." ? No! You'd say "Whadda'ya nuts?" Some things ARE better than others. And if we've come to feel that way...we should be honest about it...and not hide behind the politically correct answers.

No, I totally agree with you. Sometimes, we have to be honest and show candor. I had to do that yesterday when things just snapped, and I had to speak up about how poorly a university class was being run. I do it all the time too when I review restaurants. In an ideal world, we could all be wishy-washy and say "it's all subjective." But it isn't. Some restaurants are indeed better than others and can be proven as such.

When it comes to food, we have the innate ability to determine whether something is good or bad. Nobody will disagree with that. The only placer where things get muddier is in determining how good or how bad something is. That's the foundation upon which all restaurant reviewing rests.

Rhys
05-05-2005, 04:06 PM
When it comes to food, we have the innate ability to determine whether something is good or bad. Nobody will disagree with that. The only placer where things get muddier is in determining how good or how bad something is. That's the foundation upon which all restaurant reviewing rests.

Lol. My wife hates Marmite, tongue, laverbred and many other British delicacies. I, on the other hand, will eat just about anything save for saurkraut (which she loves).

Again determination of good versus bad is as individualistic as camera choice.

Rex914
05-05-2005, 04:26 PM
I don't think so (but we're really straying from topic now!). There's a fine but definitive line between good and bad. You may "hate" something, but that clearly doesn't make it bad. That's just introducing personal opinion into the fray. For example, I hate cucumbers and pickles, but that doesn't discredit the "goodness" of the dishes in which they are used.

Let's just take one small sample here.

Pretend we were in a perfect world without any diseases, bad microbes, etc.

I serve you two cuts of prime rib. Would you take the one that's cooked entirely through until it's stiff and dry or the juicy medium rare one?

With no worries of health issues, I'm sure that the vast majority of us would pick the juicy medium rare one. Why? It's more tender and flavorful that way, and even with taste aside, it's be a whole heck of a lot easier to eat.

That's the kind of clear cut situation between good and bad. Of course, we don't live in a perfect world, so there's always the health issue, but if that were out of the way, I'm pretty darned sure people would prefer a succulent piece of meat rather than a hard rock. Ever wonder why all the books and magazines always show medium rare cuts? It's human nature. It's also science (when we see "yummy" things, endorphins are released, inducing "pleasure"), but I rather not go any further into that.

By the way, my argument has no bearing on camera choice. It's just something JTL brought up that was interesting to discuss.

Darnit, now I'm getting hungry talking about food. You see what I mean?

JTL
05-05-2005, 05:12 PM
Trouble is if he wants a Pinto (no idea what they're like) let him have it. Why do you have to impose your values on someone else?Remind me never to ask you for advice! :D

Insert advice disclaimer here.

jeisner
05-05-2005, 06:18 PM
"Best" is subjective not objective. We could spend the evening willy waving about why X camera is better than Y, but at the end of the day, maybe I want a camper van and you want a SUV.

What would you know? A two seater sports car is the ulitmate car, I don't care if you have kids to cart around, put them in the boot :P

Sorry just joking around...

Seriously though, I can list good and bad points of all the current DSLRs NONE of them is perfect.. Even the much hallowed (by some canon fanboys around here) 20d has its drawbacks, I have used it extensivley and liked some features and hated others, and I decided not to buy it, it was an informed decision... The arrogance of some people amazes me, especially when they have no personal experience with the products offered by the competition. Just because one particular camera/tv/car/mobile phone is best for you or me doesn't mean it is the best, it may be best in one certain specific area but worse in others...


P.S. Your car analogy is approriate IMO, some people need an SUV, some people want a two seater sports car, others want a hummer... They all have their advantages for some, and disadvantages to others... You can say one is the fastest, or one is the biggest but you can say one is overall the best, just the best in one specific criteria...

jeisner
05-05-2005, 06:39 PM
And the beat goes on...

...And the beat goes on.

and on and on and on... Ahh stuff it, I might as well hang out on the dpreview canon forums LOL, the fanboy attitude on here is amazing. Sarah asked me why you don't get much discussion from other camera model users on dcresource??? case and point...

JTL
05-05-2005, 07:53 PM
What would you know? A two seater sports car is the ulitmate car, I don't care if you have kids to cart around, put them in the boot :P

Sorry just joking around...

Seriously though, I can list good and bad points of all the current DSLRs NONE of them is perfect.. Even the much hallowed (by some canon fanboys around here) 20d has its drawbacks, I have used it extensivley and liked some features and hated others, and I decided not to buy it, it was an informed decision... The arrogance of some people amazes me, especially when they have no personal experience with the products offered by the competition. Just because one particular camera/tv/car/mobile phone is best for you or me doesn't mean it is the best, it may be best in one certain specific area but worse in others...


P.S. Your car analogy is approriate IMO, some people need an SUV, some people want a two seater sports car, others want a hummer... They all have their advantages for some, and disadvantages to others... You can say one is the fastest, or one is the biggest but you can say one is overall the best, just the best in one specific criteria...An interesting OPINION...

jeisner
05-05-2005, 08:17 PM
I always thought that I was getting an unbiased review until I read the XT review. The "reviewer" bent over backwards to make the XT shine.

I thought that about DPreview for a while, but after the last few reviews I know it is nothing more than another paid for Canon Shill review site...


For those that care. The *ist DS review is up on Steves site.
There are more DS reviews around for example on DCViews, Luminous Landscape and plenty of magazine reviews, a few of them even comment on phil's big JPEG issue, flat out saying it is not an issue, eps if you use 'natural' mode, although if just doing 6x4 or 8x10, bright mode gives better results for people who don't like to do PP.


The D70 received great reviews from all sites including this one, since there was no way out, as Canon had nothing.

And if the ditributor in Australia was not so expensive ;) I may very well have bought it, it was a toss up between Pentax and Nikon for me. Canon was barely even a consideration.

jeisner
05-05-2005, 08:20 PM
An interesting OPINION...

And I never claimed it to be anything more ;)

JTL
05-05-2005, 08:59 PM
And I never claimed it to be anything more ;)I know...I'm just funnin' :D

gabester
05-05-2005, 09:51 PM
Time for a talk with Rodney Strong and Kendall Jackson. I get more out of the "discussion" than with the local Canonians. This was a pretty good site until it became all things Canon. Including the biggest Canonian of them all.

I always thought that I was getting an unbiased review until I read the XT review. The "reviewer" bent over backwards to make the XT shine.


I totally disagree. By the way, the D100 was called "superb" by the reviewer. Nikon cameras have done very, very well here in the reviews, and I that is in part why I bought the Coolpix 2100 and 4300.
What exactly would Jeff gain by promoting one brand over another? Greater overall advertising/referral revenue? Maybe I'm naive but if someone is set on buying a camera, they'll buy one brand or another. All cameras get exposure here, on reviews and the PriceGrabber links.

jeisner
05-05-2005, 09:56 PM
All cameras get exposure here, on reviews and the PriceGrabber links.

Not all do!

jeisner
05-05-2005, 09:59 PM
Maybe I'm naive but if someone is set on buying a camera, they'll buy one brand or another.

Maybe so with those of us that can think for ourselves, but it amazes me the number of people that buy based on reviewers opinions, and post in forums flat out asking "should I buy camera X or Y" the sheep mentality is very depressing :-/

Rex914
05-05-2005, 11:07 PM
Not all do!

Come on. Be fair. Jeff has already said a dozen times that Pentax REFUSED to give him a *st DS to review despite multiple pleas. If that's the way they want to play this game, it's their loss. Jeff WILL review every camera he gets.


I have a really hard time getting things from Pentax. I do want to review the *ist DS, but Pentax has to cooperate... :rolleyes:

From the list, you know which companies actually care and which don't. Canon and Nikon (and Sony) get the most coverage because they actually send each and every model to Jeff. Nikon has even sent him a D2X even though I doubt that anybody here would have the funds to buy one. Do the other companies do that? Nope. It shows.

I just had to get that out, because people (in general) don't know that what Jeff reviews is what Jeff gets.

jeisner
05-05-2005, 11:21 PM
Come on. Be fair. Jeff has already said a dozen times that Pentax REFUSED to give him a *st DS to review despite multiple pleas. If that's the way they want to play this game, it's their loss. Jeff WILL review every camera he gets.

Fair enough.... Marketing especially in the US market, but also in general has never been Pentax's strongest area... Actually it was a seperate entity and recently they pulled the control back into Pentax (Asahi Optical), hopefully it gets better, wait and see I guess... Canon is a master at Marketing

Rhys
05-06-2005, 09:28 AM
Interestingly, on another site, I asked the pro wedding photographers which camera they'd use. Almost universally, they said the Canon 20d or XT. One guy there said he'd got a D70 but regretted having bought into Nikon and if he was starting out again, would have gone for Canon. Much mention was made of Canon L-glass. Somebody also suggested the Fuji S2/3 Pro as having the best dynamic range.

Well, today, I shall go and look at some of these dSLRs to see how they handle. I'm thinking of looking at the XT, e-300, S2/3 and maybe the D70 and *ist Ds but the latter two are an afterthought only.

Norm in Fujino
05-06-2005, 10:48 AM
is all this talk about hardware, without any mention of the soft side. Over this past week or ten days I've been trying to figure out some of intricacies of RawShooter Essentials (RSE) versus Silkypix. There are quite substantial differences in terms of visible results--(on my camera, at least, and I have to believe on any other)--and probably similar differences between those two and the many others I haven't the money or time to test. Not to mention the various JPEG options. Even if the "best" hardware were an objective matter, it all gets thrown into limbo when you start considering the various RAW converters. And then, Nikon wants to control all Nikon owners' creative instincts with its proprietary Nikon Capture developer software. . .

It's complex enough that (IMHO) nobody can say "this is it!", not yet.

JTL
05-06-2005, 02:35 PM
Maybe so with those of us that can think for ourselves, but it amazes me the number of people that buy based on reviewers opinions, and post in forums flat out asking "should I buy camera X or Y" the sheep mentality is very depressing :-/Honestly, why are you depressed about what other people buy or how they make their decisions? I mean, we're talking about cameras here...hardly a matter worthy of depression (except for when you look at your bank statement after buying some new gear :D ). Those who care to educate themselves, I agree, are better off for it. But, if in the end, people are happy with their purchases, what does it matter? Not everyone is, or cares to be or even needs to be an expert. Cut the peeps some slack...

erichlund
05-06-2005, 04:09 PM
is all this talk about hardware, without any mention of the soft side. Over this past week or ten days I've been trying to figure out some of intricacies of RawShooter Essentials (RSE) versus Silkypix. There are quite substantial differences in terms of visible results--(on my camera, at least, and I have to believe on any other)--and probably similar differences between those two and the many others I haven't the money or time to test. Not to mention the various JPEG options. Even if the "best" hardware were an objective matter, it all gets thrown into limbo when you start considering the various RAW converters. And then, Nikon wants to control all Nikon owners' creative instincts with its proprietary Nikon Capture developer software. . .

It's complex enough that (IMHO) nobody can say "this is it!", not yet.

While I don't want to get into the ownership or right vs. wrong / who's at fault issues, it seems this is one reason Nikon could legitimately say that others should use their SDK. If the user changes RAW camera settings identically in several applications, the user should get identical results, as these reflect what the camera should output with the new settings. If these applications are producing different results, then Nikon has every right to believe their camera customers are being disserviced.

This is not to say that the different RAW converters may have extended options unique to that converter, only that they should produce consistent results within the realm of camera controls provided by Nikon.

Cheers,
Eric

Rhys
05-06-2005, 06:11 PM
Today I visited Columbia Photo (ColumbiaPhotoSC.com) and had a look at their cameras. I handled the Nikon D70 and the Canon Rebel XT. They didn't have the Olympus E-300 or the Fuji S2/3 Pro.

Having handled the two, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I really like the XT. The focussing was excellent although it did screw up (as expected) when I gave it something terribly difficult to focus on - an oblique angle on a glass countertop.

The XT with the 18 - 55 came in at $1000, which doesn't seem too far off most prices. The optional handgrip came in at $170. If I buy these two then I guess I'll have everything I need for wedding photography bar the flashgun.

Before I make such a major purchase, has anybody any comments?

scalia
05-06-2005, 06:31 PM
is all this talk about hardware, without any mention of the soft side. Over this past week or ten days I've been trying to figure out some of intricacies of RawShooter Essentials (RSE) versus Silkypix. There are quite substantial differences in terms of visible results--(on my camera, at least, and I have to believe on any other)--and probably similar differences between those two and the many others I haven't the money or time to test. Not to mention the various JPEG options. Even if the "best" hardware were an objective matter, it all gets thrown into limbo when you start considering the various RAW converters. And then, Nikon wants to control all Nikon owners' creative instincts with its proprietary Nikon Capture developer software. . .

It's complex enough that (IMHO) nobody can say "this is it!", not yet.

for what i've seen, silkypix' result is superb...

Norm in Fujino
05-06-2005, 06:32 PM
As a Nikon owner, I have not used NC, nor have I missed it. You make it sound like that is our only creative option, and that Nikon has somehow stolen it from us.

Well, of course I was referring to the recent/current hot debate over Nikon's encoding white balance information in at least some of their cameras' NEF files, apparently in order to prevent Nikon users from using third-party raw developers. No, Capture is not presently the only creative option, but many observers believe that the ultimate intent behind the encoding is to make it the only creative option.

Steve's forums carried a recent thread about the issue, in which I contributed one note, quoting the Nikon pro e-mail that (I've read elsewhere) was one of the issues provoking the fear among Nikon users; the entire thread's at

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=54511&forum_id=2

Bluedog
05-06-2005, 06:40 PM
Before I make such a major purchase, has anybody any comments?

No complaints from me on mine except the Kit Lens doesn't even touch the potential of what the XT can do.

Rhys
05-06-2005, 06:43 PM
Have fun. Good luck with the wedding photographer endevor. I doubt that the 18-55 will serve you well for wedding photography, but you never know. I would ask Jamie on this item.

You will definately need a good iTTL flash, and maybe 2 or 3 for on-the-fly portrait work, and receptions. One of the guys I tagged with last year had 3 Nikon SB800's strategically placed around the reception hall and it was amazing. Well worth the $900 tag for a portable studio.

I'm sure the 580's work the same way.

Anyway, I'm real happy that you are finally getting off the fence after all these years. I think the D70s or 20D would have been a better choice, but with the battery grip the XT should be livable.

The 18-55 would seem to me to be ideal - as long as distortion is nil/managable.

As far as I can calculate 28mm (18mm) is the maximum width one should use for groups. 85mm (55mm) is the ideal for portraits. I can see a longer lens might be useful too. Maybe 85 - 135 approx. This would seem to make the 18-55 pretty good for most wedding photography.

I love the small size, the lightness and the ease of use plus the instant focussing.

The only other thing I'd need would be a spare battery and maybe my tripod.

jeisner
05-06-2005, 06:52 PM
The CS Plug-in works fine, as does RSE, and even Irfanview (in a pinch).

Bibble has also 'cracked' the so-called encryption and supports the Nikon Nef files in question....

The whole thing is a bit of a joke as Nikon are not the only ones to encrypt parts of their RAW files...

jeisner
05-06-2005, 07:01 PM
The 18-55 would seem to me to be ideal - as long as distortion is nil/managable.

As far as I can calculate 28mm (18mm) is the maximum width one should use for groups. 85mm (55mm) is the ideal for portraits. I can see a longer lens might be useful too. Maybe 85 - 135 approx. This would seem to make the 18-55 pretty good for most wedding photography.

I love the small size, the lightness and the ease of use plus the instant focussing.

The only other thing I'd need would be a spare battery and maybe my tripod.

I don't think they were referring to the lens not being wide or long enough but rather to its poor optical performance...

I hope I don't start an argument saying this but of all the current crop of DSLRs Canon is offering IMO the worst kit lens... Get the XT by all means, but I would recommend not getting the kit lens, maybe the Canon users could suggest a higher quality alternative, esp if you are going to try and use it for professional shots...

Bluedog
05-06-2005, 07:07 PM
I don't think they were referring to the lens not being wide or long enough but rather to its poor optical performance...

I hope I don't start an argument saying this but of all the current crop of DSLRs Canon is offering IMO the worst kit lens... Get the XT by all means, but I would recommend not getting the kit lens, maybe the Canon users could suggest a higher quality alternative, esp if you are going to try and use it for professional shots...

My Kit Lens isn't even in my camera bag any longer. Its an alright inexpensive lens so thats about what you can expect but in no way can it compete with the Tamron 28-75 I just purchased.

JTL
05-06-2005, 09:42 PM
Let me make sure that I understand this...

...What you are stating is, that ignorance is bliss?

If I misinterpreted your statement then my apologies.

Otherwise it flies in the face of the purpose for this web site, and these forums.George- No I'm not saying ignorance is bliss, I am saying the opposite. If you want to be critical, that's o.k., but please be fair. Re-read the section of the post I was responding to, and then re-read my answer. The poster was saying how he was upset that people got their info from reviews and forums! I say give them a break! What else are they supposed to do? They all can't start becoming camera experts, so they rightfully look for advice. The poster seemed to be taking issue with that...to the point of depression. I say if people gather as much info as can be reasonably expected in proportion to what they're spending...and they are o.k. with that, then that's O.K! That's what I'm saying. Kapish? Apology accepted.

Guess you'll have to find something else to pick on me for. I can't wait. :D

DiJ
05-06-2005, 10:18 PM
The XT with the 18 - 55 came in at $1000, which doesn't seem too far off most prices. The optional handgrip came in at $170. If I buy these two then I guess I'll have everything I need for wedding photography bar the flashgun.

Before I make such a major purchase, has anybody any comments?

I tried the XT as well. I know many who cant stand the small size of the grip. So be sure to hold one for some time and see if the grip is comfortable enough for you. Going from a 20d or D70 to the XT I do feel the grip is a bit too thin. But it does feels quite comfortable to me after getting used to it for about 10mins. The weight of this camre also means I dont need to grip as hard.

The kit lens should be no problem for wedding photography. Its soft around the edges wide open but still very sharp around the centre. I dont see why that should affect wedding shots that much. Since most of these are portrait type shots. I would suggest changing contrast parameter to 0 or -1 to avoid blowing out the white wedding gown. With this camera you can shoot available light at iso800 without much noise.

jeisner
05-06-2005, 10:26 PM
Re-read the section of the post I was responding to, and then re-read my answer. The poster was saying how he was upset that people got their info from reviews and forums! I say give them a break! What else are they supposed to do? They all can't start becoming camera experts, so they rightfully look for advice.

Hi JTL,

What I was getting at, or meant to anyway, was there is a difference between asking for advice and asking to be told what to do! Many people when they get into photography (like when I did) don't go into a forum and ask "Which camera should I get, tell me what to do?". We go out and do research, read, learn and then ask any questions we may have as a result of our research... What I was referring to in that post as sad was that some people don't try a little for themselves, they want to be spoonfed...

Also I don't think it is bad that people get info from reviews, but just take it with a pound of salt, reviewers have their own pre-conceptions and bias just like every other human being on this planet, whether want to or not...


The poster seemed to be taking issue with that...to the point of depression.

OK that is an exageration by me then, it doesn't make me depressed as in suffering from depression, but it is sad to read... I think you can say something is somewhat depressing to read but not causing you to be actually depressed after reading it??? maybe I am wrong in the way I am wording it?

JTL
05-06-2005, 10:49 PM
What I was getting at, or meant to anyway, was there is a difference between asking for advice and asking to be told what to do! Many people when they get into photography (like when I did) don't go into a forum and ask "Which camera should I get, tell me what to do?". We go out and do research, read, learn and then ask any questions we may have as a result of our research... What I was referring to in that post as sad was that some people don't try a little for themselves, they want to be spoonfed...

Also I don't think it is bad that people get info from reviews, but just take it with a pound of salt, reviewers have their own pre-conceptions and bias just like every other human being on this planet, whether want to or not...



OK that is an exageration by me then, it doesn't make me depressed as in suffering from depression, but it is sad to read... I think you can say something is somewhat depressing to read but not causing you to be actually depressed after reading it??? maybe I am wrong in the way I am wording it?Got it! Thanks! Let's face it...all of us who make this a passion tend to roll our eyes when people want everthing in the world about cameras (especially digicams) and photography laid out for them in a single post. I've directed many a questioner to do more research before asking questions. We know the answers aren't always simple...especially when people haven't even thought about what they really want or need. But, some of us try to help them as best we can. And on giving advice...I do love my Canons (I have two and may buy two more) but today I already steered people toward a Panasonic and a Sony based on their needs. I am not biased to the point where I would give someone dubious advice...

Also, regarding camera bias, the *ist DS was my first chioce for a dSLR (mainly because of size), but when the 350 came out, I tried them side-by-side and decided not to purchase either for now. So, I don't rule out cameras by brand (although some people seem to think so). I also own a Nikon SLR and many Nikkor lenses. So, when you read future posts of mine, even though over time I've become more Canon biased, I am by no means addicted to Canon...even though there might be a 20D in my future. We'll see.

Thanks for taking the time for discussion. I appreciate it.