Canon G6 vs Canon S2 IS

[rinume]

I know the latter is not yet out in the market but I have more or less decided to get it unless the reviews are drastically negative.

Today I was talking to a friend about it and gosh he was sooooo negative about the S2 IS based on the fact that its aperture is only 2.8 - 3.5. He was like get the G6 its way better.

Except the G6 doesn't have a 12X zoom and I'm really not the kind to bother with additional accessories and carry an extra zoom lens around. The G6 has an aperture that is I think f/2.0 - f/8 at wide and f/3.0 - f/8.0 or something like that.

Anyway so is it really all that bad the S2 having an aperture of 2.8 - 3.5 only?? f/2.8 (W) and f/3.5(T).

[zero]

Anyway so is it really all that bad the S2 having an aperture of 2.8 - 3.5 only?? f/2.8 (W) and f/3.5(T).

Only a high-end camera (non-slr of course) will have F2.0. I believe even Sony's V3 which is supposed to be a high-end camera has F2.8. Most of the cameras (not low-ends) will have F2.8.

[JTL]

Anyway so is it really all that bad the S2 having an aperture of 2.8 - 3.5 only?? f/2.8 (W) and f/3.5(T).It's not bad. It's pretty standard and f/2.8 is nothing to sneeze besides. Now...you really can't fairly compare these two cameras. They are so different and serve such totally different purposes that I'll go back to my tried-and-true "it's like comparing hammers and screwdrivers" (or is it apples and screwdrivers?) line...

The G6 is a serious, superior, prosumer camera, but is it right for what you need it for? If not, than it's not the right camera for you....

[vpolineni]

will the g6 replacement have a 12x zoom like the s2 is and the panasonic fz5? if it has that I would buy it over the s2 is.

[zero]

will the g6 replacement have a 12x zoom like the s2 is and the panasonic fz5?

I seriously doubt it.

[JTL]

I seriously doubt it. Zero's right...no way. But the Pro 1 replacement might have everything you covet....for about $1000.00...

[Balrog]

If i'm not mistaken, the G6 has a 1/1.8" LCD (compared to 1/2.5" on the S2, and all the other superzooms for that matter) ... making a lens with 12X zoom range and any kind of fast aperture (the gold standard being f2.8 throughout, like the fz20) would probably be prohibitively expensive...

[vpolineni]

Zero's right...no way. But the Pro 1 replacement might have everything you covet....for about $1000.00...

i read somewhere that there might not be a pro 1 replacement as it would be too similar to a dslr. if there is one, it would be my dream camera. is there an estimated date for its arrival? thanks for the input.

[JTL]

i read somewhere that there might not be a pro 1 replacement as it would be too similar to a dslr. if there is one, it would be my dream camera. thanks for the input.It all may depend on the Nikon D50 and what Nikon decides to do with its prosumer line. If Nikon steps out, Canon may as well. Although, Canon may decide to keep that (tiny) market to themselves. But, if Nikon keeps (or improves) at least the 8800, then Canon would be foolish not to compete. And in that case, I believe they will. So, I guess we have to wait and see how it all shakes out...

Also...date to watch 9/28: Photokina Expo

[rinume]

What about the other side of the scale - F/8 since that is what my friend was complaing about the most as according to him even his kodak dx6490 has an aperture of up to f/8.

Ok so basically you will place the G6 as a serious prosumer camera ... where do you place the S2 IS?

I'm full of questions lol. Thanks so much for taking the time to answer - I really appreciate that!

[JTL]

Ok so basically you will place the G6 as a serious prosumer camera ... where do you place the S2 IS?It's strictly a consumer ultra-zoom. Targeted at the people who will never, ever consider using (or need to use) a dSLR/tele lens combo. Just because someone only has $500.00 to spend doesn't mean they shouldn't have long-reach capability available to them. This is going to be the perfect camera for a lot of people IF the quality is there (both build and image).

And, having f/2.7-3.5 across the range is a good thing...not a negative! I'll take 432mm at f/3.5 any day of the week...

It should be a fun camera to test...

[Balrog]

Targeted at the people who will never, ever consider using (or need to use) a dSLR/tele lens combo.

Are you so sure of that? It has amazing range, a fast enough lens, full manual controls, good framerate .. what does the G6 offer prosumers that the S2 doesn't, apart the 7MP instead of 5 (not an incredibly significant resolution difference, really) and the lens (f2.0-3.0 instead of 2.8-3.5, but you can hardly expect 2.0-3.0 on a 12X zoom lens...) .. I guess there's the ND filter, but that can be taken care of externally...

I'd *love* to have a dSLR with a boatload of fast stabilized lenses, but I just don't have the money (college student, heh) ... I'd go for an FZ20 but I think the articulating LCD, low-light useable LCD/EVF, AA batteries and smaller size/weight might be more useful for me than the half-stop I lose at full tele... if you think the S2 is really not suitable for 'prosumers' for some reason, please explain why...

[JTL]

Are you so sure of that? It has amazing range, a fast enough lens, full manual controls, good framerate .. what does the G6 offer prosumers that the S2 doesn't, apart the 7MP instead of 5 (not an incredibly significant resolution difference, really) and the lens (f2.0-3.0 instead of 2.8-3.5, but you can hardly expect 2.0-3.0 on a 12X zoom lens...) .. I guess there's the ND filter, but that can be taken care of externally...

I'd *love* to have a dSLR with a boatload of fast stabilized lenses, but I just don't have the money (college student, heh) ... I'd go for an FZ20 but I think the articulating LCD, low-light useable LCD/EVF, AA batteries and smaller size/weight might be more useful for me than the half-stop I lose at full tele... if you think the S2 is really not suitable for 'prosumers' for some reason, please explain why...If you're comfortable with 5MP on a 1/2.5 sensor for professional photography applications, who am I to disagree? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am...:)

I disagree big time on a couple of your points...5MP vs. 7MP is a HUGE difference (30%!!!) when you print 11x17" and A3+, as I do. And f/2.0 vs. f/2.8 is a HUGE difference in actual shooting situations...especially when precise DOF is required and especially for close-ups...

That doesn't mean that I'm not hoping for the best. If I like the S2 once I get my hands on it, I'm buying it...

[ajay67]

What about the other side of the scale - F/8 since that is what my friend was complaing about the most as according to him even his kodak dx6490 has an aperture of up to f/8.

of course S2 has f/8 to select too. the f/2.8~f/3.5 is the biggest aperture at the wide & tele end. not the "only" aperture setting

[rinume]

Ok that sounds good if it does go up to f/8, too. But I checked at the Canon site and for G6 they specifically state that but for S2 IS they don't state it anywhere or at least I couldn't find the info. Where do I need to look?

[ajay67]

Ok that sounds good if it does go up to f/8, too. But I checked at the Canon site and for G6 they specifically state that but for S2 IS they don't state it anywhere or at least I couldn't find the info. Where do I need to look?

for example, here :
http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/pss2is/201-e.html#99

[Balrog]

If you're comfortable with 5MP on a 1/2.5 sensor for professional photography applications, who am I to disagree? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am...:)

I disagree big time on a couple of your points...5MP vs. 7MP is a HUGE difference (30%!!!) when you print 11x17" and A3+, as I do. And f/2.0 vs. f/2.8 is a HUGE difference in actual shooting situations...especially when precise DOF is required and especially for close-ups...

That doesn't mean that I'm not hoping for the best. If I like the S2 once I get my hands on it, I'm buying it...

Yeah, I see your points :) .. it's just a matter of intended use, I guess:
For me, the difference is that I'll hardly be printing over A4 size anyway, so 5MP is just fine for me.
And yeah, i know f/2.0 will get me twice as fast a shutterspeed as f/2.8 can, but I'm not really into low-light action photography - for low-light still images, I'm betting the image stabilization will more than compensate for the loss of one stop in terms of hand-holdability.
Regarding DOF control and macro shots - the S2 has a 0cm super macro mode! how can you beat that? ;)
Anyway, more than anything I'm a zoom junkie, so I think the missed photographic opportunities because of lack of zoom would irk me much more than those missed because of the slower lens ... so for me, the tradeoff is worth it. I've had a lot of 'play-time' with a friends' G5 which has the same f/2.0-3.0 35-140mm lens, and trust me, I NEED more zoom than that! :)

[rinume]

Thank you !!!!! Found it :))) I feel so much better now lol. Ok its the S2 IS for me then. Just hope the reviews are good, too ;-)

[GMan]

I the S2 a Pro camera? it depends....

For the last 10+ years as an "advanced-amateur" photographer I have taken some professional shots and enjoyed using all kinds of equipment from large format to an all-manual Pentax K-1000.

Since it was launched, the Nikon N70 has been my camera of choice (35mm film SLR), along with a 19-35, 28-100 and 105mm lenses. Add a circular polarizer, a dozen rolls of film (B&W, slides, ASA 100-800, etc), a few extra accesories and it comes to a pretty large bag.

Two years ago I got myself a Nikon Coolpix 2100 to play with. Only 2 megapixels, bottom-of-the-line digital camera from Nikon. After a year or so it became pretty evident that the convenience in size(portability) and storage (with a 512MB card) of the digital made it a much more practical camera. As a result, my N70 started collecting dust.

Then, last month, I spent a weekend in Paris, and I took a few shots with my Coolpix, the best of which you can find at http://gdada.photosite.com/Europe . Then I submitted a marina sunset photo I shot when having dinner with my parents at the Yarrow Bay in Kirkland to the local Where magazine, who decided to publish it 1/2 page size.

So, the Coolpix is a pretty low-end camera (no aperture control at all) - yet, my pictures were coming out pretty good. There is very little chance I would have carried my whole N70 35mm SLR outfir throughout Europe (business trip with 10 flights in about a week) or to the casual family dinner in Kirkland. My 4x6 prints from 2MP are quite good, too.

My argument is not that the Coolpix is as good as the N70 SLR, but that "professional" grade of a camera is quite relative. For most people, the S2 or a G6 would be way more than enough. Even for 8x10 prints.

So now my N70 is gone (thanks to eBay) and I am in the market for a good digital camera to replace it. Probably somewhere between the G6, S2 or Pro 1. Both the Pro 1 and G6 are due for a replacement after about a year in service. The Pro 1 seems slow but with great features, the G6 is perfect except for the zoom range and the S2 is awesome except for the high-end features. I am leaning towards the S2.

From 5MP to 7MP there is a difference, but the stabilization and zoom capability might result in better pictures at the end. I am sure most people would have a hard time finding the differences in quality in a 8x10 print.

In technical terms, the difference between a G6 at 7MP (3072 x 2304) versus S2 at 5MP (2592 x 1944) is 251 vs. 297 dpi at 8x10 print - not significant. At 11x17 the S2 will produce images with 165 dpis, acceptable for most people, expect maybe for art print-quality.

In my mind, the versatility of a 12x Zoom is wortth the tradeoff. You will be able to capture much more interesting images. If you need the zoom but need more than 5MP wait for the next version of the Pro 1

My 2 cents,

GMan

[Balrog]

The Pro 1 seems slow but with great features, the G6 is perfect except for the zoom range and the S2 is awesome except for the high-end features. I am leaning towards the S2.

Just so I know :) .. which high-end features, specifically, do you consider less-than-awesome? I'm aware of the smaller and lower-res sensor and the slower lens, but is there anything else that's inferior?

[GMan]

Apart from the 7Mp to 5MP....(according to specs @ www.powershot.com)

- the G6 features 9-point AiAF (Automatic Focus Point Selection)/1-point AF (Fixed to center). The S2 simply reads "TTL Autofocus"
- The G6's maximum aperture goes down to 2.0 (versus 2.7 for S2)
- AE lock
- ND Filter
- Hot shoe for external flash (although the S2 can use the wireless flash, which is a must-buy in my opinion)


Advantages of the S2 (in no particular order either)
- Lower cost
- 12 x Zoom
- Image Stabilization
- DiGIC II processor
- Faster speed (1/3200 versus 1/2000)
- Closer macro


But then, final specs might change @ release time

[Balrog]

Hmmm .. according to the specs I saw on the Canon Japan (http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/pss2is/206-e.html#015) site, the S2 does have AE/FE lock capability... The japan site seems a lot more informative in general than the US one.

It also clarified focus capability - I think it doesn't have AiAF, but you *can* move the focus point to any part of the frame .. though I usually find it easier to just lock focus with subject in the center and then recompose the shot (at least on a G5, which has the same setup)... and from all I've heard AiAF really isn't so hot... some A95 owners on this forum suggested just leaving it off..

Then there's the ND filter and the hotshoe, both of which can be taken care of with external accessories... (you mentioned the flash yourself, and grabbing an accessory ND filter would be pretty cheap...)

Leaving, finally, the f/2.0 lens .. to which the S2 can't say anything but .. 12X zoom! nyah nyah! ;)

[zero]

Apart from the 7Mp to 5MP....(according to specs @ www.powershot.com)
- ND Filter


What does the ND filter do? I am just curious (I have no idea),

[GMan]

There are many inconsistencies in the way camera manufacturers report specs, so I would not be surprised if AiAF is available in the S2. That makes the S2 an een better deal! I am checking shopper.com every day for availability!

[Balrog]

The ND filter reduces the amount of light entering the lens .. I think the one Canon puts in the G-series is a 3-stop ND filter, which means light is cut to 1/8th the amount. It's useful for situations where you want large apertures or slower shutter speeds to create various blur effects (depth of field, or motion blur) in very bright areas ... if your desired settings have risk of over-exposure, just activate the ND filter and you can use shutter speeds 8 times slower (or apertures 3 stops larger, or any combination of those).

[mal3017]

I was thinking....
is the small dimension of the S2 sensor an possible problem for the image quality?
The other compact big-zoom cameras (Panasonic FZ5 and the future Sony DSC-H1) have the same sensor, but the noise into FZ5/FZ20 is evidence and the other Canon cameras with this sensor (PowerShot SD400), haven't a good image quality!

[claytonb]

What is the difference between TTL Autofocus and Canon AiAF? Whic is better? Thank you.

[Balrog]

I was thinking....
is the small dimension of the S2 sensor an possible problem for the image quality?
The other compact big-zoom cameras (Panasonic FZ5 and the future Sony DSC-H1) have the same sensor, but the noise into FZ5/FZ20 is evidence and the other Canon cameras with this sensor (PowerShot SD400), haven't a good image quality!

The sensor size definitely will be a factor - i.e. don't be expecting G6-quality pictures ... 1/2.5" 5MP sensors all have some degree of noise, unfortunately it's the only way we can get cameras at this price range with 12X zoom lenses... (larger sensor = larger/longer lens = more glass = more $$$)
Still, it's not like it's really horrible noise - shouldn't even be noticeable at 4x6 print size (or larger, even, if you apply noise-reduction software..)

[Balrog]

What is the difference between TTL Autofocus and Canon AiAF? Whic is better? Thank you.

TTL means "through-the-lens" .. which just means the focusing takes place on the image viewed through the camera lens, and not an external sensor. Just about all compact digital cameras these days use some variation of a contrast-detection algorithm on the TTL image..

AiAF is a fancy Canon name for their autofocus algorithm, which evaluates 9 (i think) different parts of the image and then picks an optimal focus point. How good is it? I don't know, myself, but I've heard people saying it's not worth much.

Myself, I usually stick to single-area AF anyway (easier to predict what the camera will do... and faster focusing, usually) so it doesn't matter, really.

[mal3017]

Still, it's not like it's really horrible noise - shouldn't even be noticeable at 4x6 print size (or larger, even, if you apply noise-reduction software..)

hi and thanks for the answer.
Which is for you the best noise-reduction sofware ?

[Balrog]

So far I've only used NeatImage (http://www.neatimage.com), which is free (the basic version anyway, which means no batch processing) yet produces amazing results .. there's also NoiseNinja and a couple of others .. I think they run around $30-$40 or so. I'm have no idea how much better/worse they are, though.

[mal3017]

Good!
I download now the NeatImage!
Thanks

[Alnath]

Well i must also say i am on the verge of selling my G6 for an S2 IS. People are commenting on the faster lens and higher image quality of the G6 but to be honest i was disappointed at the G6 quality when i bought one after owning an A80, you really had to scrutinise the images to notice which camera they were taken on. Both cameras (A80/G6) are just as noisy as each other as an equal ISO so the sensor size is obviously not as big an issue as people make out and has already been pointed out the IS on the S2 will make up for the lack of f2. The G6 may well be a prosumer camera but it is slow to write to a card and slow to process images, has terrible low light focus problems, the high speed continual shooting is a joke and in anything less than really good lighting conditions the images it produces are lifeless and washed out.

I use neatimage on images ISO 200/400 BTW and it is brill.

[Balrog]

hmm .. though I'd suggest waiting for reviews before you do that, I think the use of DIGIC II in the S2 IS should fix any processing speed-related problems.. it's used on Canon SLRs, after all :)
and yeah, neatimage just plain rocks! :cool:

[Alnath]

I did say on the verge and not sold, given the price i paid for the G6 (i got it on the day of release so paid top whack) i am not stupid enough to sell it to buy a total duffer.

I also think DIGIC II will make up for any of the deficiency the smaller CCD may have with its superior noise reduction and obviously it miles faster at processing as it can maintain 2.5FPS indefinitely by processing on the fly, DIGIC has all on keeping up even with a decent buffer.

For me the zoom makes up for the 2 million pixel drop, most of my G6 shots end up getting cropped to death just to zoom in to what I took a photos of, my splendid 7 mega pixel images usually end up at 2 or 3 million pixels and effectively a worse resolution than the S2.

[Balrog]

Well, if you find yourself cropping so much, then yeah the zoom is definitely worth it .. I sincerely hope the DIGIC II helps with image quality on the smaller sensor -- but doesn't the SD400 have DIGIC II too? it's also got a 5MP 1/2.5" sensor, and image quality does suffer compared to the SD500 (7MP, 1/1.8").

[MrForgetable]

SD400 image quality suffers in comparision to the SD300 too..

[thebac]

Well i must also say i am on the verge of selling my G6 for an S2 IS. People are commenting on the faster lens and higher image quality of the G6 but to be honest i was disappointed at the G6 quality when i bought one after owning an A80, you really had to scrutinise the images to notice which camera they were taken on. Both cameras (A80/G6) are just as noisy as each other as an equal ISO so the sensor size is obviously not as big an issue as people make out and has already been pointed out the IS on the S2 will make up for the lack of f2. The G6 may well be a prosumer camera but it is slow to write to a card and slow to process images, has terrible low light focus problems, the high speed continual shooting is a joke and in anything less than really good lighting conditions the images it produces are lifeless and washed out.

I use neatimage on images ISO 200/400 BTW and it is brill.

Well, the A80 has the same size sensor as the G6, so it's hardly an indictment on the G6 that it has the same noise performance at almost twice the resolution.

Otoh, the S2 has a smaller sensor than the G6, so I expect there to be quite a bit more noise than on the G6.

[mauricio]

...plus the G6 shoots RAW.

[pairojvej]

hi and thanks for the answer.
Which is for you the best noise-reduction sofware ?

I use Noiseware Community Edition (free for non-commercial use), http://www.imagenomic.com , it's great but do not have batch mode. You could see my photos collection, "Sat 18th Dec 04", using Noiseware at http://pairojvej.fotopic.net

I think I will purchase NeatImage Pro soon because it has batch mode.

[Alnath]

Well, the A80 has the same size sensor as the G6, so it's hardly an indictment on the G6 that it has the same noise performance at almost twice the resolution.

Which kind of proves my point for me, thanks.

[Alnath]

...plus the G6 shoots RAW.

I know many people love raw but after nearly 10,000 shots i have taken on my G6 i have used raw for one single shot, on a cameras list of features being able to shoot raw is just about at the bottom of my list thats for sure.