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2150-bye
04-08-2005, 04:57 PM
I have read these forums for a few months and have learned alot about what I knew zip about and for that I thank all that contributed to these forums.

I have tried the digicams and was un-happy and then saw the magic that a D70 produced and was ready to jump on board and now I see there is a D50 and D70S about to enter the field of view . Now for the whole affair to begin anew . I know one thing for sure my new camera will have a "D" in it somewhere (20D,D50,D70 or D70S).

I did get my printer so far, I chose the Canon i9900.

Rhys
04-08-2005, 06:43 PM
I have read these forums for a few months and have learned alot about what I knew zip about and for that I thank all that contributed to these forums.

I have tried the digicams and was un-happy and then saw the magic that a D70 produced and was ready to jump on board and now I see there is a D50 and D70S about to enter the field of view . Now for the whole affair to begin anew . I know one thing for sure my new camera will have a "D" in it somewhere (20D,D50,D70 or D70S).

I did get my printer so far, I chose the Canon i9900.

I'm looking with more interest at the Olympus system.

D70FAN
04-08-2005, 07:48 PM
I have read these forums for a few months and have learned alot about what I knew zip about and for that I thank all that contributed to these forums.

I have tried the digicams and was un-happy and then saw the magic that a D70 produced and was ready to jump on board and now I see there is a D50 and D70S about to enter the field of view . Now for the whole affair to begin anew . I know one thing for sure my new camera will have a "D" in it somewhere (20D,D50,D70 or D70S).

I did get my printer so far, I chose the Canon i9900.

You have chosen wisely. But stop the Olympus nonsense. ;)

Norm in Fujino
04-08-2005, 07:54 PM
I'm looking with more interest at the Olympus system.

Ah, choosing a DSLR can be as hard or as simple as you want it to be. If you're only going by the consensus of the majority of professionals, then it's a no-brainer to go with Canon or Nikon. But professionals have needs that I don't have.
My two-bits of wisdom on the subject :p :
Check out the Oly four-thirds forums and websites as well as those dedicated to Canon and Nikon to see as many perspectives as possible. And be sure to actually handle all the cameras sufficiently to get at least a general idea of how they feel in the hand, how their viewfinder suits your own vision and sense of seeing. Don't be excessively swayed by the machine tests for resolution. Most of the tests produce results within a whisker of each other, and at the sizes most ordinary mortals print out, aren't significant (your mileage may vary, obviously).
The biggest "downer" to the Oly system at this point is the well-known issue of high-ISO noise. Oly seems to believe you should shoot at ISO 100-400, and at that range it can produce images second to none. But if you shoot lots of sports or theatrical stage events at ISO 1600, and don't want to bother with post-process noise reduction (neatimage, noise ninja, etc.), then I'd go with a Canon rebel xt (talking about the same general price range). At this point they pretty much have the high-ISO game sewn up. Nikon of course has better high-ISO performance, too. But--there are lots of issues involved, and people can go round and round with them, as I have. Dust removal, pixel mapping, lens ranges and quality, personal ergonomic preferences, etc.

Lauri Sippu (http://homepage.mac.com/lsippu/PhotoAlbum43.html) has lots of great shots made in Finland with the E-1 and E-300.

My Four Thirds (http://myfourthirds.com) is fairly new, but has links to a lot of e-system photos.

You have to take all your needs and personal shooting habits into account when making your choice. The Canons and Nikons are top cameras, no doubt about it, and it would be silly to disparage anyone who decides to go that route; it was a hard decision for me, too. But at this point I'm happy. :D

Rhys
04-08-2005, 08:15 PM
I'm quite keen on the 4:3 system. All my existing photos are 4:3 and my PC screen is 4:3 too (although I could easily set it to be 2:3 if I wished).

I find the dust shaker is a novel idea on the e-300 that might just be useful. I'm waiting to see whether Olympus comes out with anti-shake too.

I'm not in a desperate rush although after my honeymoon in St Augustine, I might be quite interested in getting an e-300. I'll probably go for the kit lens (28 - 90) and something from 70 - 135 approx.

cameragame06
04-08-2005, 11:24 PM
Seriously, other ppl may say other wise about the *ist DS, but it is a GREAT dslr if its ur first or fifth. i saw absolutely GREAT pictures taken from it. and it runs on either 4 AA batteries or cr-V3 rechargables, which is a great plus if u are on vacation for example and u run out of batteries, its obviously gonna be much easier to find AA's than some sort of lithium ion rechargable. some places have great deals on this camera too, such as: the body, 18-55 pentax lens and 70-300 quantaray lens for 899.99, or the body 18-55 pentax lens and a 70-300 pentax lens for 999.99. i would definately recomment this dslr.

jeisner
04-09-2005, 12:58 AM
^^^ so would I ;-)

- 30 years of complete lens compatibilty (still some great deals on bright high quality manual lenses on ebay)
- Good high ISO performance
- JPEG performance is better than Canon Shill reviews give it credit for! unless maybe you print to poster size, then use RAW mode
- Fantastic RAW performance
- Largest viewfinder in it class (a major point for me to get DSLR over prosumer was an optical viewfinder, so why settle with a crippled tunnel like optical viewfinder?)
- Sturdy build (full steel sub frame)
- Great Ergonomics
- 2" High resolution LCD screen to check/preview your shots
- Good quality kit lens (although Nikon and Oly do have this too)

OK thats the end of my Pentax sales pitch... ;-)

I suggest you go into a camera store and try all the cameras out, take a few shots, get a feel for the cameras. All the cameras have good picture quality in this class IMO, in which case build quality and usability are very important factors... See which ones feels best to use for YOU as your the one who has to live with it for the next X years... ;-)

scalia
04-09-2005, 05:02 AM
I'm quite keen on the 4:3 system. All my existing photos are 4:3 and my PC screen is 4:3 too (although I could easily set it to be 2:3 if I wished).

I find the dust shaker is a novel idea on the e-300 that might just be useful. I'm waiting to see whether Olympus comes out with anti-shake too.

I'm not in a desperate rush although after my honeymoon in St Augustine, I might be quite interested in getting an e-300. I'll probably go for the kit lens (28 - 90) and something from 70 - 135 approx.

E-300 now available with 2 lens kit for under $900
E-300 + ZD 14-45mm + ZD 40-150mm, that'll cover 28-300mm in 35mm film equivalent

adorama, b&h, etc have this, just add to cart... like this one (http://www.adorama.com/IOME300K2.html?searchinfo=e300%20kit&item_no=2)
pretty good price, me think.
cheers

speaklightly
04-09-2005, 06:46 AM
All of the posts reflect that dSLR cameras are on the move, with more being sold every day. dSLR cameras are a wonderful creative tool. And because they are creative tools, they are subject to some very subjective evaluations, like how they feel in hand, and viewfinder style etc. Certainly there are objective issuses as well such as their use at high ISO numbers, dust accummulation, and the like.

However, at the end of the day. they are all good cameras, and the variety available seems to prove that we all have needs that may indeed be just a bit different. So I have nothing but praise for anyone who wants to step up to a higher level of personal creativity and technical excellence.

Can we now see some of the wonderful photographic output? We all love to see the creativity and the inspiration in the finished product.

Sarah Joyce

D70FAN
04-09-2005, 07:13 AM
I have read these forums for a few months and have learned alot about what I knew zip about and for that I thank all that contributed to these forums.

I have tried the digicams and was un-happy and then saw the magic that a D70 produced and was ready to jump on board and now I see there is a D50 and D70S about to enter the field of view . Now for the whole affair to begin anew . I know one thing for sure my new camera will have a "D" in it somewhere (20D,D50,D70 or D70S).

I did get my printer so far, I chose the Canon i9900.

2150-bye...Interesting handle. Haven't heard that in a long time. Highway Patrol?

As a second commentary: I have had the D70 for over a year, and have gone back to try all of the competitors. At one point I had cash-in-hand for a 20D after using one for several days. I repeated the 20D experience twice and still think it is a great camera, but decided to spend the difference on an SB800 to replace my SB50 (a good decision as it turns out).

I spent 2 days with the *ist DS, and several hours with an E-1 and the same with an E-300. I have to admit that I only spent 45 minutes to an hour with the new Rebel XT.

I still have the D70. Not because I didn't like the other cameras, but because none were better. Even the 20D which is probably the best consumer dSLR on the market, is missing features that Nikon so wisely designed-in and that I use frequently.

If you hold the D70 side-by-side with any Nikon pro dSLR the similarities are striking. Nikon spent the time and effort to package that functionality, look, and feel into the D70 (and the D100).

Again, I'm not a Nikon-uber-alles kind of person (even though it may seem that way). I'm actually a bigger Canon fan, (not when it comes to some of their latest entries) but, in my opinion, you can't buy a better camera than the D70 for under $1000.

Norm in Fujino
04-09-2005, 07:39 AM
Can we now see some of the wonderful photographic output? We all love to see the creativity and the inspiration in the finished product.

Hey, I'm still learning the controls! :o
Actually, I drove out today and will go out again tomorrow to do some shots of sakura and other flowers. I'll try and upload some shots in the next few days as I figure out what I'm doing. I'm shooting at SHQ right now as I test, but eventually plan to go to RAW--another learning curve.

erichlund
04-09-2005, 11:02 AM
I suspect that most people don't know that sakura is in reference to cherry blossoms. It's an annual thing in Japan. I wouldn't know it but there was an article about it in today's paper (Orange County, CA, Register).

So, for those that went "Sakura?", that's what Norm is talking about.

Cheers,
Eric

gary_hendricks
04-09-2005, 07:56 PM
^^^ so would I ;-)

- 30 years of complete lens compatibilty (still some great deals on bright high quality manual lenses on ebay)
- Good high ISO performance
- JPEG performance is better than Canon Shill reviews give it credit for! unless maybe you print to poster size, then use RAW mode
- Fantastic RAW performance
- Largest viewfinder in it class (a major point for me to get DSLR over prosumer was an optical viewfinder, so why settle with a crippled tunnel like optical viewfinder?)
- Sturdy build (full steel sub frame)
- Great Ergonomics
- 2" High resolution LCD screen to check/preview your shots
- Good quality kit lens (although Nikon and Oly do have this too)

OK thats the end of my Pentax sales pitch... ;-)

I suggest you go into a camera store and try all the cameras out, take a few shots, get a feel for the cameras. All the cameras have good picture quality in this class IMO, in which case build quality and usability are very important factors... See which ones feels best to use for YOU as your the one who has to live with it for the next X years... ;-)

There are plenty of great reasons here to go with what jeisner is saying! I think he really knows his stuff!

D70FAN
04-09-2005, 10:23 PM
Seriously, other ppl may say other wise about the *ist DS, but it is a GREAT dslr if its ur first or fifth. i saw absolutely GREAT pictures taken from it. and it runs on either 4 AA batteries or cr-V3 rechargables, which is a great plus if u are on vacation for example and u run out of batteries, its obviously gonna be much easier to find AA's than some sort of lithium ion rechargable. some places have great deals on this camera too, such as: the body, 18-55 pentax lens and 70-300 quantaray lens for 899.99, or the body 18-55 pentax lens and a 70-300 pentax lens for 999.99. i would definately recomment this dslr.

Oddly enough, the D70 comes with a CR2 battery pack. CR2's are available almost everywhere. Fortunately the D70 can generally go for at least 800 shots before recharge, so 2 EN-EL3's will go quite a while.

Funny how most people never mention the CR2 pack in discussions. ;)

gabester
04-10-2005, 09:59 AM
There are plenty of great reasons here to go with what jeisner is saying! I think he really knows his stuff!

Yeah, jeisner indeed knows his stuff; those are most of the good points about Canon dSLRs. Another one is image smoothness. Don't let anyone dissuade you from buying the camera of your choice (and your choices are all good), even those with thousands of posts and are bent on evangelizing about the D70.

It's pretty sad when people have to put down other people's choices and preferences just to make themselves feel better or appear smarter. Or maybe it stems from paranoia regarding about some conspiracy against their favorite camera.

Of course anyone can say anything in this forum, but even in free-speech America you can still piss people off if you put down something that they like or love. We shouldn't be afraid to speak out against "experts" like that.

jeisner
04-10-2005, 05:24 PM
Yeah, jeisner indeed knows his stuff; those are most of the good points about Canon dSLRs. Another one is image smoothness. Don't let anyone dissuade you from buying the camera of your choice (and your choices are all good), even those with thousands of posts and are bent on evangelizing about the D70.

I was referring to Pentax not Canon.... Canon 300/350 don't have a good number of those points ;-)

Such as:
- 30 years of complete lens compatibilty
- Large viewfinder
- Sturdy build (full steel sub frame)
- 2" High resolution LCD screen to check/preview your shots
- Good quality kit lens (although Nikon and Oly do have this too)

D70FAN
04-10-2005, 06:15 PM
Yeah, jeisner indeed knows his stuff; those are most of the good points about Canon dSLRs. Another one is image smoothness. Don't let anyone dissuade you from buying the camera of your choice (and your choices are all good), even those with thousands of posts and are bent on evangelizing about the D70.

It's pretty sad when people have to put down other people's choices and preferences just to make themselves feel better or appear smarter. Or maybe it stems from paranoia regarding about some conspiracy against their favorite camera.

Of course anyone can say anything in this forum, but even in free-speech America you can still piss people off if you put down something that they like or love. We shouldn't be afraid to speak out against "experts" like that.

Spoken with the expertise we have grown to know and love. I'm sure that Jeisner will be thrilled to have your endorsement.

What exactly are you talking about? As before, just when I think that you might be a great contributor to the discussion here, you come out with some really off-the-wall comments.

If you have something to contribute... then fine. If all you want to do is spew contempt, then find a different forum. You are proving to be the antithesis of what you claim you dispise (without the thousands of posts).

I don't think that anyone with thousands of posts has ever "put down" any camera. We (with thousands of posts) will, of course try to suggest what we think are good choices, generally, and hopefully these are based on experience, not speculation.

So far (in your 37 posts) I haven't seen you contribute anything of relevance or value to this, or any other, forum. So this may be a good time to start.

It's ok for us to argue the merits of a particular camera vs. another that's the idea here. That is free speech. Also not necessarily unique to America.

I, and I think the majority of DCRP contributors, welcome ideas that contribute to the knowlege base of this or any other forum, and while I do not own or run this website, I have been around here long enough to know a piker from a contributor. The question is which do you want to be.

If it's the former, you might want to look elswhere.

gabester
04-10-2005, 08:32 PM
Spoken with the expertise we have grown to know and love. I'm sure that Jeisner will be thrilled to have your endorsement.

Yeah, I made a mistake; I thought Jeisner was talking about the Canon. My bad. I still agree with him, though; the ist DS is an excellent compact camera; if I hadn't bought the XT I'd probably have bought that.


What exactly are you talking about? As before, just when I think that you might be a great contributor to the discussion here, you come out with some really off-the-wall comments. If you have something to contribute... then fine. If all you want to do is spew contempt, then find a different forum. You are proving to be the antithesis of what you claim you dispise (without the thousands of posts).

I think contempt is your domain, not mine. I don't think I've put down any camera in any of my 37 posts (read them all; it shouldn't take that much time). You on the other hand have put down the XT, apologized for it, promised not to do so anymore, then continued to do so in not-too-subtle digs. Here is some proof (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=33513#post33513) that you're still at it. Speaking of antithesis, your signature says "Once you go dSLR, you'll never go back"; however just in this thread you said "You have chosen wisely. But stop the Olympus nonsense" which I thought may have been insulting to Norm (of Fujino) since I know he agonized over this decision to purchase an E-300 and was almost apologetic that he was a "pariah" for doing so. Sure you had tons of smileys, but one can smiley and smiley and still be a villain.


I don't think that anyone with thousands of posts has ever "put down" any camera. We (with thousands of posts) will, of course try to suggest what we think are good choices, generally, and hopefully these are based on experience, not speculation. So far (in your 37 posts) I haven't seen you contribute anything of relevance or value to this, or any other, forum. So this may be a good time to start.

I thought you wouldn't get involved in any more pissing contests. So let's take your 2000 posts, subtract the ones where you advise people from buying certain cameras after having 15 minutes (or zero minutes) experience with them, then further subtract posts of questionable technical expertise (like this one (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=32546#post32546) in which you state that "the slightly smaller sensor on Canon dSLR's have this effect (of image edge softness)), and what are you left with?


It's ok for us to argue the merits of a particular camera vs. another that's the idea here. That is free speech. Also not necessarily unique to America.

No argument there; I also realize that free speech is not unique to America. It just happens that most of the forum participants seem to be from here. However, as an overzealous evangelist for the D70 it has become apparent that you have clouded your judgement enough to exhibit prejudice against many very fine cameras which people look up to you to advise them on. I may be perhaps one of the first to bring this up, but I assure you that I am not the only one here who has been offended by you.


I, and I think the majority of DCRP contributors, welcome ideas that contribute to the knowlege base of this or any other forum, and while I do not own or run this website, I have been around here long enough to know a piker from a contributor. The question is which do you want to be.
If it's the former, you might want to look elswhere.

I may never surpass your contributions here. Admittedly, you are an excellent photographer and your technical know-how has more or less been pretty sound. However, I feel that the question should be rephrased as follows:

"You (George Riehm), as a person of great prominence here on the DC Resource Forums, can exercise your influence on the rest of us (especially impressionable newbies struggling to find the right camera) either wantonly or wisely: you can perpetuate your tiresome sell-everyone-on-the-D70-at-all-costs tirade or you can respect the careful choices people have made in buying expensive cameras that are important to them and are an extension of their personal creativity. Which do you choose?"

Finally, I am willing to bury the hatchet and start afresh with you if you are willing to consider that you may have offended people here. You have already acknowledged doing this in the past; the onus is on you to hold true to your promise to stop doing so. In return, I will stop singling you out as someone whose prejudice is detrimental to the open exchange of ideas here and I will again look forward to reading your posts with great interest and a willingness to learn - as I once used to.

D70FAN
04-10-2005, 09:33 PM
Yeah, I made a mistake; I thought Jeisner was talking about the Canon. My bad. I still agree with him, though; the ist DS is an excellent compact camera; if I hadn't bought the XT I'd probably have bought that.



I think contempt is your domain, not mine. I don't think I've put down any camera in any of my 37 posts (read them all; it shouldn't take that much time). You on the other hand have put down the XT, apologized for it, promised not to do so anymore, then continued to do so in not-too-subtle digs. Here is some proof (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=33513#post33513) that you're still at it. Speaking of antithesis, your signature says "Once you go dSLR, you'll never go back"; however just in this thread you said "You have chosen wisely. But stop the Olympus nonsense" which I thought may have been insulting to Norm (of Fujino) since I know he agonized over this decision to purchase an E-300 and was almost apologetic that he was a "pariah" for doing so. Sure you had tons of smileys, but one can smiley and smiley and still be a villain.



I thought you wouldn't get involved in any more pissing contests. So let's take your 2000 posts, subtract the ones where you advise people from buying certain cameras after having 15 minutes (or zero minutes) experience with them, then further subtract posts of questionable technical expertise (like this one (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=32546#post32546) in which you state that "the slightly smaller sensor on Canon dSLR's have this effect (of image edge softness)), and what are you left with?



No argument there; I also realize that free speech is not unique to America. It just happens that most of the forum participants seem to be from here. However, as an overzealous evangelist for the D70 it has become apparent that you have clouded your judgement enough to exhibit prejudice against many very fine cameras which people look up to you to advise them on. I may be perhaps one of the first to bring this up, but I assure you that I am not the only one here who has been offended by you.



I may never surpass your contributions here. Admittedly, you are an excellent photographer and your technical know-how has more or less been pretty sound. However, I feel that the question should be rephrased as follows:

"You (George Riehm), as a person of great prominence here on the DC Resource Forums, can exercise your influence on the rest of us (especially impressionable newbies struggling to find the right camera) either wantonly or wisely: you can perpetuate your tiresome sell-everyone-on-the-D70-at-all-costs tirade or you can respect the careful choices people have made in buying expensive cameras that are important to them and are an extension of their personal creativity. Which do you choose?"

Finally, I am willing to bury the hatchet and start afresh with you if you are willing to consider that you may have offended people here. You have already acknowledged doing this in the past; the onus is on you to hold true to your promise to stop doing so. In return, I will stop singling you out as someone whose prejudice is detrimental to the open exchange of ideas here and I will again look forward to reading your posts with great interest and a willingness to learn - as I once used to.

I don't think that there is any question as to my bias in favor of the D70, and the same is absolutely true for the 20D. And I will be the first to admit that I think that these are great cameras. But I don't think that I have ever recommended a camera that was not a worthwhile investment. So you can look at these a "safe" recommendations. Or the chickens way out.

I don't think that anyone buying a D70 (or a 20D) would be unhappy. I can't necessarily say that about other dSLR's. Again, I removed all of the negative references to the XT, because they just seemed to touch a nerve, and that really wasn't my purpose. Anyway they were based on a brief (actually about 45 minutes total) exposure, which was not the way to evaluate a camera.

You are right though, just because I think the XT is not the best value, doesn't mean it isn't. There's that opinion thing again.

Bottom line is: I have a lot of experiences (good and bad) with digital cameras. I have made a lot of expensive mistakes along the way and what I hope to do is help guide people away from making the same mistakes (if I have the personal knowlege and experience to do so).

Like all of you out there I know a lot about some things and a little about others. Hopefully I can share the things I know a lot about, and learn from others on things where I know a little. That's why I like the DCRP.

I actually hoped that I had burried the hatchet when I deleted the XT comments, but apparently you would like for me to completely compromise my better judgement and not ever mention the D70 (or 20D?) again. It isn't going to happen.

So my suggestion is: Keep criticizing me, or do something constructive and add your knowlege to the database so you can counter my opinions. Post pictures, and recommendations based on what you know, and not what you hear. Believe it or not I am very open minded, I do make mistakes, and will change my opinion when proven wrong. So prove me wrong.

The best way to burry the hatchet is to contribute to the knowlege of the group, not carry on some tirade against me personally. I'm sure that in the 2000+ posts here I have made some mistakes. Hopefully not many. If you feel like digging them up, I'm sure that we would all be entertained.

gabester
04-11-2005, 04:02 AM
I don't think that there is any question as to my bias in favor of the D70, and the same is absolutely true for the 20D. And I will be the first to admit that I think that these are great cameras. But I don't think that I have ever recommended a camera that was not a worthwhile investment. So you can look at these a "safe" recommendations. Or the chickens way out.

I don't think that anyone buying a D70 (or a 20D) would be unhappy. I can't necessarily say that about other dSLR's. Again, I removed all of the negative references to the XT, because they just seemed to touch a nerve, and that really wasn't my purpose. Anyway they were based on a brief (actually about 45 minutes total) exposure, which was not the way to evaluate a camera.

You are right though, just because I think the XT is not the best value, doesn't mean it isn't. There's that opinion thing again.

Bottom line is: I have a lot of experiences (good and bad) with digital cameras. I have made a lot of expensive mistakes along the way and what I hope to do is help guide people away from making the same mistakes (if I have the personal knowlege and experience to do so).

Like all of you out there I know a lot about some things and a little about others. Hopefully I can share the things I know a lot about, and learn from others on things where I know a little. That's why I like the DCRP.

I actually hoped that I had burried the hatchet when I deleted the XT comments, but apparently you would like for me to completely compromise my better judgement and not ever mention the D70 (or 20D?) again. It isn't going to happen.

So my suggestion is: Keep criticizing me, or do something constructive and add your knowlege to the database so you can counter my opinions. Post pictures, and recommendations based on what you know, and not what you hear. Believe it or not I am very open minded, I do make mistakes, and will change my opinion when proven wrong. So prove me wrong.

The best way to burry the hatchet is to contribute to the knowlege of the group, not carry on some tirade against me personally. I'm sure that in the 2000+ posts here I have made some mistakes. Hopefully not many. If you feel like digging them up, I'm sure that we would all be entertained.

George, you're still missing the point. I'm not suggesting that you stop promoting the D70 (or 20D); I'm asking you to cease sniping at other people's choice in cameras. As far as I know you're the only person of influence doing that there. If I'm way out of line and being unreasonable to you (or have, as you suggested, contributed nothing here), others should speak up. Then again if there is a kernel of truth in what I am complaining about, people should also voice their opinion to that effect. If it does appear that I'm speaking out of my rear end, or being a troublemaker just for the hell of it then I'll back off; no questions asked. However, we need to get the opinions of third parties, lest we debate this ad nauseum.

As for posting pictures here I'm in no rush to do so; I'll post when I'm ready. Most of my 20 Gigs of pics are still with P&S cameras and I'm not entirely confident about my skill as a photographer. As for proving you wrong, that was never my goal; I just want you to realize that some of us treasure their cameras and don't enjoy having someone who hasn't spent enough time with them constantly criticizing them. I feel that most of us would appreciate it if your emphasis was placed more on bringing up a camera's good points than dismissing it based on scant experience or evidence. How would your wife or girlfriend of 20 years like it if a woman you dated for a week bad-mouthed you to everyone?

D70FAN
04-11-2005, 06:34 AM
George, you're still missing the point. I'm not suggesting that you stop promoting the D70 (or 20D); I'm asking you to cease sniping at other people's choice in cameras. As far as I know you're the only person of influence doing that there. If I'm way out of line and being unreasonable to you (or have, as you suggested, contributed nothing here), others should speak up. Then again if there is a kernel of truth in what I am complaining about, people should also voice their opinion to that effect. If it does appear that I'm speaking out of my rear end, or being a troublemaker just for the hell of it then I'll back off; no questions asked. However, we need to get the opinions of third parties, lest we debate this ad nauseum.

As for posting pictures here I'm in no rush to do so; I'll post when I'm ready. Most of my 20 Gigs of pics are still with P&S cameras and I'm not entirely confident about my skill as a photographer. As for proving you wrong, that was never my goal; I just want you to realize that some of us treasure their cameras and don't enjoy having someone who hasn't spent enough time with them constantly criticizing them. I feel that most of us would appreciate it if your emphasis was placed more on bringing up a camera's good points than dismissing it based on scant experience or evidence. How would your wife or girlfriend of 20 years like it if a woman you dated for a week bad-mouthed you to everyone?

I don't think I have bad-mouthed anyone, here or anywhere else. Even in our discussions here I have tried to limit my replies to being on defense, and only questioning why you are attacking me personally instead of proving me wrong. And now you are requesting the members of the DCRP to do the same?

Part of the reason we post pictures is for critique, or to learn from other peoples work. I would bet that only a handfull of pictures on the Photos forum are from dSLR's, and there are some fantastic shots, even scanned in from old 35mm pictures.

As to sniping at other peoples cameras... I will be careful in the future not to criticize someones choice, although I try to avoid doing that anyway.

With a recent turn of events I will even stop recommending the D70 until I can find out if a post from a new member is true, and the extent of a possible flaw in one of the D70 components. On the upside of this Nikon seems to be backing the camera with repair. In my case about 2 weeks from my hands and returned.

If you go up to the "D70 bites the dust" thread you will see what I am talking about. Even though the quantity of repairs is moderately small, it is still a potential problem.

Again I am requesting that you stop attacking me, personally, and contribute or learn from the members of this site. If I'm wrong about something bring it to my attention. I have no problem correcting an error.

In this case if sniping at others camera choices is a problem, then state the specific entry and I will correct it.

Balrog
04-11-2005, 07:25 AM
However, we need to get the opinions of third parties, lest we debate this ad nauseum.

:) third party opinion, as requested: I myself have only recently started posting here, though i've lurked significantly longer than that. I'd just like to say that I've always enjoyed reading George's posts, and even if he might have been harsh on the Rebel XT sometimes, he has never hidden the fact that he did not spend a lot of time with it, so his opinion might not be entirely accurate, and of course we all know he loves the D70, so it might not be entirely unbiased. Taking that into account, reading his opinions on the rebel (or any other camera, for that matter) has only ever been informative - it is useful to see why someone might prefer another camera. And watching him promote the D70 which he so obviously loves very much has not offended me in any way whatsoever.


I'm asking you to cease sniping at other people's choice in cameras. As far as I know you're the only person of influence doing that there.
I, at least, don't think he was sniping at other people's choices - he was offering his opinion on the camera based on the [admittedly little] time he had with it. Would you rather all of the informed people here not tell you when they thought a camera wasn't worth your money? I thought that was the entire point of this forum!
If you haven't bought an SLR and you're thinking about one, an expert opinion either way would be useful - in my own camera research I've often looked specifically for negative reviews on a product, just to see what possible bad points there might be, and whether they matter to me. If you have already bought your camera, you should have confidence in your choice, and not feel the need to have it endorsed by everyone in the world...

Ray Schnoor
04-11-2005, 07:54 AM
If you have already bought your camera, you should have confidence in your choice, and not feel the need to have it endorsed by everyone in the world...

Absolutely!

Unless you only want opinions from people who own a camera model, you will most likely get opinions from others who tried a camera and, for some reason or other, preferred a different model. They most likely thought that the performance/features of their chosen model were superior, or else they wouldn't have made that choice. As an example I have tried several models with electronic viewfinders, but prefer optical viewfinders. Please do not consider this a snipe at EVFs, but only my preference.

As you can probably tell, I also don't consider any of George's comments as being snipes at specific cameras.

Ray.

Rhys
04-11-2005, 08:27 AM
Reading opinions from people who know about cameras can be good too. As far as I can see, there are several DSLRs around. I'll list my likes/dislikes with reasons:

Olympus - produced a very nice OM system in the 1970s and 1980s before abandoning SLRs in the 1990s. I liked the optical quality of the 35mm slrs but wasn't too keen on the shutter speed dial being around the lens base. I quite liked my 35mm XA2 and XA3 cameras although focus wasn't quite as sharp as it looked and they suffered a little from vignetting (probably due to the leaf shutter). I'd like to think that the E-300 is a good camera and would be prepared to have a look at one with a view to buying it. The 4:3 format interests me as well. Their Camedia system has produced varied quality images. I had a secondhand C820L that was pretty awful but a C200z that was really good.

Canon - the only manufacturer not to leave 35mm users completely in the lurch. All of their 35mm lenses will work fully with their DSLRs. This bodes well for the future. When they dumped the FD system, they did upset most of their customers though. Having said that, perhaps it was a case of the sticking plaster - rip it all off at once or a little bit at a time.

Nikon - these guys pulled the sticking plaster off a bit at a time, leaving us with a most confusing lens and camera system. As far as I know, almost all Nikon and Nikkor lenses will fit onto almost any body. The exceptions are that some of the older lenses won't fit onto lens mounts with the AI contact. For this reason, most Nikon cameras have a flip-down AI contact. Their system became even more confusing when they added electronic contacts and autofocus. This meant that it was pretty much pot luck as to which lenses would work with which cameras. Now they've gone digital I find I can't get even AI to work with a D100/D70 however it will work on a D1/D2 etc. It's what I call a real pig's ear of a system. Having said that, optical and image quality is excellent on both my 35mm cameras and my digitals.

Minolta - DOn't know much about Minolta and don't really have much inclination to find out. I knwo it sounds silly but I knew one lad who had a Minolta from my old camer club. He was such an annoying person who ranted endlessly about his Minolta that he put me right off Minolta.

Pentax - Again, I don't know much about the *ist aside from the fact the name's a bit silly. I had Pentaxes in the past and had bad experiences with them and friends who'd had Pentaxes also had bad experiences. Now, whatever anybody else says about Pentax, they will always equal bad cameras to me.

Sigma - I've seen the images. I liked the image from the camera but was turned off by the unique lens system and by the RAW only format.

Fuji - I gather the S3 is a rebadged D100 with modifications so the same problems apply that apply to the Nikon system as a whole.

Kodak - I don't know much about their dSLRs other than they're horribly expensive.

speaklightly
04-11-2005, 08:27 AM
Personally, I appreciate the comments made above by Ray and Balrog. Perhaps, I am imbued with excessive idealism, but I would like to see us return to the spirit of friendliness, civility, and an eagerness to both share and learn without rancor or offence.

We seemed to have that spirit through the end of the year, and then ever so gradually, things began to change. I personally believe that George's input is gracious and always properly qualified. George has given all of us a great deal with his experience and his inquisitive mind. I for one, find no problems at all with his comments and I personally have learned a lot from George's posts.

Just like Ray put it so nicely, we all really want to make good equipment decisions. To do that we have to share and learn the good and the bad about any piece of equipment. However, at the end of the day, our own personal feelings will also play into our final decision in a rather decisive way. I for one, respect that.

Sarah Joyce

2150-bye
04-11-2005, 04:50 PM
I have had this log-in for years and you are the first person to ever know that it came from HP ,really it was Dan Mathews call sign

D70FAN
04-11-2005, 04:55 PM
I have had this log-in for years and you are the first person to ever know that it came from HP ,really it was Dan Mathews call sign

I used to watch this show religously when I was a kid. The original "CHiPs". They re-ran it very briefly about 2 or 3 years ago on TV Land (I think), and then pulled it before I could Tivo a few.

gabester
04-12-2005, 03:38 AM
Thanks to those who gave their opinion. As promised, I'm backing off; no questions asked. My sincere apologies to everyone, of course including George, for any trouble I've caused.

D70FAN
04-12-2005, 06:00 AM
Thanks to those who gave their opinion. As promised, I'm backing off; no questions asked. My sincere apologies to everyone, of course including George, for any trouble I've caused.

Gabester, Thanks.

Samuel Lo
04-12-2005, 07:33 PM
Thanks to those who gave their opinion. As promised, I'm backing off; no questions asked. My sincere apologies to everyone, of course including George, for any trouble I've caused.


That's what I appreciate this forum: all members are great and well-educated!

gabester
04-13-2005, 06:57 AM
That's what I appreciate this forum: all members are great and well-educated!

I don't know about great and well-educated, but what we have here is a respect for the collective. No one's opinion on cameras or other members has changed, but I think most of us would place the group's well being above other issues. :)

ReF
04-13-2005, 03:03 PM
Thanks to those who gave their opinion. As promised, I'm backing off; no questions asked. My sincere apologies to everyone, of course including George, for any trouble I've caused.

ah, gracefully done! that's why i like this forum! people here are polite and know when to admit things. it's sad that i can't say the same for any of the other forums i've found.

honestly, i did feel that George was over-promoting the D70 but i've changed my mind, because i realize that it only seemed this way because of the sheer number of posts he has made on the subject. many other have done the same but just not as often, so we don't notice it as much.

Gabester: i appreciate you standing up and speaking your mind. it's good to see that we don't just accept what everyone else is accepting. i think that if we see something that really bothers us, challenge it in a graceful and intellengent manner and see what happens. if you loose, then back down (as you have done). there's nothing wrong with that, but i was starting to get a little worried that there would be too many heated arguments about any and everything.




personally, i also look mainly at the negative reviews when i buy something. but people need to give specific reasons as to what the problem is, so we can look into it ourselves and decide whether or not these "problems" are relevant to us. again, i feel that negative comments on cameras/equipment are neccessary when it comes to gathering info in making an informed buying decision. so please, don't take things too personally if you hear someone saying something negative about your gear - it's not like we are dishonoring your loved ones or anything. we know you've spent alot of time and money on your gear but they are just cameras after all. and please don't look down on others just becuase you feel that your equipment is better than their's. who knows, maybe the people with the "cheap" equipment is taking better pictures than the guys and gals who have spent thousands.

D70FAN
04-13-2005, 03:56 PM
ah, gracefully done! that's why i like this forum! people here are polite and know when to admit things. it's sad that i can't say the same for any of the other forums i've found.

honestly, i did feel that George was over-promoting the D70 but i've changed my mind, because i realize that it only seemed this way because of the sheer number of posts he has made on the subject. many other have done the same but just not as often, so we don't notice it as much.

Gabester: i appreciate you standing up and speaking your mind. it's good to see that we don't just accept what everyone else is accepting. i think that if we see something that really bothers us, challenge it in a graceful and intellengent manner and see what happens. if you loose, then back down (as you have done). there's nothing wrong with that, but i was starting to get a little worried that there would be too many heated arguments about any and everything.

personally, i also look mainly at the negative reviews when i buy something. but people need to give specific reasons as to what the problem is, so we can look into it ourselves and decide whether or not these "problems" are relevant to us. again, i feel that negative comments on cameras/equipment are neccessary when it comes to gathering info in making an informed buying decision. so please, don't take things too personally if you hear someone saying something negative about your gear - it's not like we are dishonoring your loved ones or anything. we know you've spent alot of time and money on your gear but they are just cameras after all. and please don't look down on others just becuase you feel that your equipment is better than their's. who knows, maybe the people with the "cheap" equipment is taking better pictures than the guys and gals who have spent thousands.

A good post, but I think that Gabester and I have ended the "discussion" by agreeing to disagree. I honestly try to make sure that the advice I give is based on experience and not speculation. As I have said before, I have purchased a lot of "dogs" based on incomplete and biased information, so it's not so much that I promote the D70 as it is a matter of playing it safe. The same reason I recommend the 20D, A75, and A85.

That said, I will admit that I ended up stepping over the cliff on the XT, when I allowed an untrue and very misleading statement of advice (not from gabester) to fetch the dark side. I think that gabester took that reply literrally and maybe out of context, spotted a potential horses-ass, and we started to head down the path of confrontation instead of disagreement. Hopefully that's water under the bridge, and I have to thank him for helping to break the cycle.

PAX

ReF
04-13-2005, 04:44 PM
but I think that Gabester and I have ended the "discussion" by agreeing to disagree

i hope everyone understands that the final paragraph in my post is not directed toward gabester or anyone in particular. just to avoid confusion i've added a couple of spaces between the last two paragraphs.

aparmley
04-14-2005, 06:05 PM
I think you are going to be very pleased, if in fact you are not currently being pleased, with your choice in printer. I picked up a Canon i960 a few months ago, I dreamed of the 13x19 capabilities of the i9900. I am most pleased with its performance. I have never seen pictures produced by a consumer printer, on glossy paper mind you, that look as good as the ones my i960 spit out. And speed, forget about it... its fast. I am wowed by the pictures that my i960 prints, they leave nothing to be desired that is for sure. The pictures that I am printing out are ones I have taken using my Canon A95 P&S.

I, too, am a little hesitant in saying that I have decided, once and for all, that I am definitely purchasing [insert brand and model]. I am seriously considering the Canon 350D but, like you, with the resent announcement from Nikon about the D50 and D70s I am holding my tongue. Primarily because I am interested in seeing how canon responds. OBiJuan, another DCResource forum contributor informed me that the both of these cameras are going to be using the 6MP [CCD, i assume] sensor. I was curious to learn this because if they were going to use 8MP sensors I think Canon would be forced to adjust their prices. Not saying that the XTs would not sell if they remained near 1,000, just thinking about the price drop of the 300D when the D70 was introduced; the marketing ploys used to increase sales.

I ask the next question in the hopes George may be able to shed some light on the topic, but, if anyone else can I would greatly appreciate it. I single George out because He enjoys his D70 and I think he would enjoy helping me ponder the following question. If the D50 and the D70s are coming out, IMO the D50 may be attemping to grab market share directly from the high end fixed lense prosumer digital cameras and to be a more "afforable entrant" into the "amateur DSLR" market that I keep reading about and compete with the 300D. Naturally then, that would leave the D70s to replace[<--Not the best choice of words here, the D70 I assume with continue to be manufactured??] the D70 and compete directly against the Canon 350D. My question is this, while upgrading the sensor to an 8MP sensor is arbitrary at best and Nikons decision not to proves they too feel this way, then what could possibly be offered in this camera [D70s] that you can't find on the D70??? Improved speed performance along the lines of the D2hs? Can someone share their opinions on this matter?

2150-bye
04-14-2005, 08:56 PM
#35 posts sums up my thoughts, completely . I have looked into the *ist.ds with very little luck on a review of it . My brothers have the D70 and D100 and work real hard pushing Nikon on me , but neither has afforded any other lenses other than kit ones. Almost sounds like they should of went P&S .
I have handled the 300d,350d(tiny for my hands),20d(alittle scarey,control wise),Oly 300
in digicam world I had a fuji 7000,handled a c-8080,8800,fz220,pro1 and f828
all they ended up doing was concluding that 2/3 spent doesn't end up with what I was looking for to begin with. I want to shoot landscape,macro,portrait,night shots and be able to process raw which could lead to some heavy output for the lenses to do these varied pictures. Someone had suggested that I buy several digicam ,one for each venue of outcome I am looking for . I also realize there is no one cure all camera out there ,but an informed decision is a good decision .
I also would like to say sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest it was not my intention . :eek:

ReF
04-15-2005, 08:31 PM
#35 posts sums up my thoughts, completely . I have looked into the *ist.ds with very little luck on a review of it . My brothers have the D70 and D100 and work real hard pushing Nikon on me , but neither has afforded any other lenses other than kit ones. Almost sounds like they should of went P&S .
I have handled the 300d,350d(tiny for my hands),20d(alittle scarey,control wise),Oly 300
in digicam world I had a fuji 7000,handled a c-8080,8800,fz220,pro1 and f828
all they ended up doing was concluding that 2/3 spent doesn't end up with what I was looking for to begin with. I want to shoot landscape,macro,portrait,night shots and be able to process raw which could lead to some heavy output for the lenses to do these varied pictures. Someone had suggested that I buy several digicam ,one for each venue of outcome I am looking for . I also realize there is no one cure all camera out there ,but an informed decision is a good decision .
I also would like to say sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest it was not my intention . :eek:

i suggest investing in lenses to suit your specific needs. then you can use your lenses when you upgrade bodies, unlike the "one point and shoot for each purpose" idea. just make sure the there are compatible lenses that suit your needs, for whatever slr system you buy.