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D70FAN
03-30-2005, 06:43 AM
Update:

That's all folks. If you want an opinion, you'll have to go elsewhere.

GlennD
03-30-2005, 07:06 AM
Good for you George! I don't know the background of your post but I do enjoy varied opinions......that's what forums are for. Glad to hear from someone who thinks for himself and is not afraid to express those feelings.

Glenn





I've used a lot of cameras in the past couple of years, and can pretty much tell if a camea is up-to-snuff in about 15 minutes. If I'm really interested I will find a way to get one for several days. The last camera I did that with was the 20D. That was a great experience. Suffice is to say that the 350D will not be hitting the road with me any time soon.

I'm tired of fighting the tide on this. "Good" cameras abound, but most people wouldn't know a "great" camera if it bit them in the tail. :( In the consumer dSLR ranks their are still only two.

And that is all I have to say.

TheObiJuan
03-30-2005, 01:50 PM
and those two would be...



Canon 20D and let me guess.... the D70.
You have the right to voice your opinion, and it is appreciated. The last thing I would want is everyone and their dog to go and purchase my camera, just following the bandwagon. If the camera weighed 2-4 ounces more, was 15% bigger, and was made of metal instead of fiberglass-reinforced polycarbonate then most people would not complain. But, Canon did not design the camera for you, or for people who already have dslr experience, it is a transition from their p&s's to the 1D series.

We will see how the camera sells in comparison to the D70 over the course of the next year. Money is all that Canon cares about. The money they make is what allows them to produce new chips, like the one in the XT, and make high grade plastic weigh next to nothing, yet strong enough to take a fall from 4 feet without even leaving a scratch. :eek:

If I wasn't raised a Canon guy and had a few hundred laying around, then the D70 would have been my answer.

gabester
03-31-2005, 02:31 PM
I'm tired of fighting the tide on this. "Good" cameras abound, but most people wouldn't know a "great" camera if it bit them in the tail. :( In the consumer dSLR ranks their are still only two.

And that is all I have to say.

George, you're quite knowledgeable and generous with your advice, but this last remark smacks of elitism and contempt. It's kind of like me when I used to try to convince people that Macs are superior to PCs. Some people just have their preferences, and Canon happens to be the choice of many. There is a reason why Canon is a top company, even in Japan.

Gabester

ReF
04-01-2005, 12:25 AM
i find it just a little hard to compare the pricing of the XT vs the D70 because the XT is a new product while the D70 is a year old. i'm sure we all remember that the D70 cost around $1200 when it came out. if nikon came out with a 8mp metal bodied update to the D70 that costs the same as the XT, then i'd be complaining too. as for me, well i like to have as much resolution/detail as i can get and performance wise the XT is good enough for my needs. i'm just using myself as an example to show that there definately is a market for the XT. I also like the low noise at high ISO performance of the canon CMOS sensors. well, i haven't seen any tests yet that show how the XT compares to the 20D when it comes to noise, so i really don't have much of an opinion about it. i'm also skipping the 6mp to 8mp upgrade to either the 20D or the XT so really, i don't think i'm being biased. the plastic bodies i don't mind so much because after all, we are talking about digitals that are going to become obsolete and replaced before they wear out anyways. i'm not trying to argue with your opinion George, I'm just giving my own. i do find validity in your statements and i agree that many will find the D70 to be superior to the XT for their specific purposes but i don't think the XT is as inferior as some may say. to each his own i guess.

"Incidentley, MAC's really are superior to PC's, but they are too darned expensive. If they were competitively priced I would be typing this on a MAC instead of aT41 (IBM). "

i'm not so sure about that one. i have a friend that knows a whole crapload about computers and builds his own PC's that rival or surpass high-end MACs and at a lower cost too. he also says he feels that MACs are too limited with what you can do to/with them. personally, i believe the guy, but if you don't agree, well hey, don't shoot the messenger.

( :rolleyes: quote from ObiJuan, NOT George R)
"Money is all that Canon cares about. The money they make is what allows them to produce new chips, like the one in the XT, and make high grade plastice weigh next to nothing, yet strong enough to take a fall from 4 feet without even leaving a scratch."

I agree. As long as Canon makes money that further develops technology and pushes other companies in the same direction, we all stand to benefit :) so i'm all for it.

eagle17
04-01-2005, 02:34 PM
My opinion follows I do not speak for either company this is just from my observations,

In todays terms it is clear that nikon has placed the d70 to compete with the rebXT the d100 is what (tries to) competes with the 20D and the (soon to be released) d50 will compete with the dreb.

I think the D70 has a few better features than the drebXT also I like the color renditions from the camera better. neither cameras could be cosidered true "PRO-Sumer" like the 20D or D100.

This is not a debate over who can build a better camera as both companies have very loyal pro followings.

one of the reasons I picked canon was the frequincy of there refreshes. d30 d60 10D 20D. nikon has had ?? d100 d70?

the other reason I chose canon was I already used a canon eos 3 and rebel g and already had a few lenses. I was also familiar with the controls.

when the 20D came out it was the perfect mix of features and price for me. i shoot a lot of studio sets and without a pc terminal i was leary of the D70. I also wanted mirror lock up for some ultra sharp shots and the 8MP sensor was a nice bonus.

eagle17
04-01-2005, 02:36 PM
george did you turn down the 20D because you thought the cost was not justified or did you have a bad experiance? just curious becase you have never really stated your full opinion on this camera.. and I know you tried it out....

ReF
04-01-2005, 03:48 PM
First of all I have never said don't buy an XT. My rebuke was to statements from the XT crowd that the XT was some sort of panacea. Once I gave the XT a real test run I found most of those claims to be absolutely without merit. So my rebuttal...

Second, the Mac/PC thing was thrown in to see if the debate was still alive. The pros that I've met and worked with use both depending on workflow methods.

Third and last: Where did that final quote come from? Certainly not from me. So I would appreciate it if you would remove it asap, and answer it in a separate response.




we've seen you make a lot of posts regarding the XT and the D70 lately, MAYBE you're taking this all a little too seriously. in fact, i felt my post was very non-serious VERY non-aggressive so i'm surprised i even got a response from you at all. what surprised me even more is the defensive tone in your reply.

"Third and last: Where did that final quote come from? Certainly not from me. So I would appreciate it if you would remove it asap, and answer it in a separate response."

c'mon, Really? i assumed everybody would know that i was not quoting you. you do know where that quote came from right?

the only thing that bugs me is how often you've stated and restated your opinon of how the D70 is so great and that you would never be caught dead with a rebel. i mean, alright, we get it. weren't you the guy who said something like: we should all be happy we even have d-slr's so we shouldn't argue about equipment.? now i'm getting a different message.

MrForgetable
04-01-2005, 07:27 PM
I'm not sure why honesty is interpreted as elitism, or contempt, as that was certainly not the intent.

Since the XT and the D70 are the same price I would expect the same level of competence and value. I am simply stating that, in my opinion this is not the case, and people should be able to make an informed decision. I'm not saying don't buy the XT! I'm saying that for the same money there might be a better option.

Incidentley, MAC's really are superior to PC's, ;) but they are too darned expensive. If they were competitively priced I would be typing this on a MAC instead of aT41 (IBM).

I have never characterized Canon as anything but a top company, and if you read my posts, I am an enthusiastic endorser of their products, but it disappoints me when they deliver less than the stellar products of which they are capable.

It's interesting that you finished with "even in Japan", as I have frequented Akehabara in the 15 years that I worked for Japanese companies, and Nikon is still the camera to have.

Reputations last a long time in Japan. Build superior products and the reputation lasts for generations. Canon is considered the "new kid", but in a good way.

Domo Arigato Gozaimasu :)

just letting you know, it is Mac, not MAC. capitilized MAC means MAC address, Mac, is short for Macintosh, the operatin system.

Bluedog
04-01-2005, 09:43 PM
just letting you know, it is Mac, not MAC. capitilized MAC means MAC address, Mac, is short for Macintosh, the operatin system.

LOL ... did ya' mean "operating"?

TheObiJuan
04-02-2005, 04:10 AM
as a southern, I do not see a difference...
ya' hear?

gabester
04-02-2005, 06:16 AM
I'm not sure why honesty is interpreted as elitism, or contempt, as that was certainly not the intent.

Your statement "most people wouldn't know a "great" camera if it bit them in the tail" is (in its mildest connotation) interpreted as "most of you XT fans are not knowledgeable enough to recognize that the D70 is a better camera".


Since the XT and the D70 are the same price I would expect the same level of competence and value. I am simply stating that, in my opinion this is not the case, and people should be able to make an informed decision. I'm not saying don't buy the XT! I'm saying that for the same money there might be a better option.

I have never characterized Canon as anything but a top company, and if you read my posts, I am an enthusiastic endorser of their products, but it disappoints me when they deliver less than the stellar products of which they are capable.

I think most here are informed enough to have read multiple D70 and XT reviews from multiple review sites. Some of us have even spent some time with both cameras. We know about the features of both cameras and we realize that (for example) the D70 has a higher flash sync shutter speed and can take more frames in burst mode. We also know that the XT is more compact, lighter, has more resolution, and produces smoother images.



It's interesting that you finished with "even in Japan", as I have frequented Akehabara in the 15 years that I worked for Japanese companies, and Nikon is still the camera to have.


Sure, Nikon's older by maybe 30 or so years, but what evidence do you have to back this up? Perhaps with film cameras Nikon sells more in Japan, but what about dSLRs? Right now the 20D is the best selling consumer dSLR there.

My point is that deciding what makes a camera "great" is a function of preference. I'm not talking about "Canon vs. Nikon" preference; I mean "what is important to me" preference. For me, what's important is having lots of room to crop and the best possible image quality (smoother, no Moire to worry about) in the smallest size and in those departments I believe the XT wins hands down.

gabester
04-02-2005, 08:21 AM
I have a couple of requests though.

1. Share with us the Japanese market data. I was just in Akehabara and as usual took an unscientific pole with the sales guys, and the big seller is not the 20D (although it is popular).

2. Share with us a little of the background as it seems like you have a lot of expertise and experience with digital and film cameras and have used the the D70 and the 20D, quite a bit before buying the XT.

Please don't take these requests as an afront. I just like to make sure that the people I take advice from are really experts, especially armed with data that is contrary to my own experience. I'm wrong all the time, but that's how I learn. ;)

Thanks.

I'm no expert. I'm merely pointing out why the XT is so popular. I was into 35mm film SLRs, prime lenses and home developing in my teens (30 or so years ago). Since 1994 I've been playing with digital cameras. This year I've gone dSLR: owned a Digital Rebel, borrowed a D70, am "borrowing" a 20D from CompUSA for the weekend, and have an XT on order. I've no portfolio to share with you, but here is a photo I challenge my three D70 friends to best (taken with a dReb and a cheap fungus-laden Canon EF 100-300 4.5/6.3):

http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~alba/moon.jpg

Here is a challenge from one of the three; I've a feeling he can do better:

http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~alba/ricardomoon.jpg

As for the Japanese data, I was wrong about the 20D! It's actually neither Canon nor Nikon. Here's a link to the top sellers, both film and digital:

http://www.photoethnography.com/blog/2005/02/news-recent-top-five-camera-sales-in.html

Oh, I've been to Akehabara many years ago before I got into photography (bought a Sanyo AM/FM Casette recorder, hehe). Had I known the significance of that place then, I'd have bought my Pentax SP1000 (screw thread mount) there.

Gabester

gabester
04-02-2005, 11:28 AM
Yup. Very good shot. We have had some great moon-shots posted on this site (somewhere). I think a couple of the FZ20 crew were shootin' the moon, so you might want to cruise over there and see. And yes I like the DReb. A good entry level dSLR. I used one for several days (several times) before deciding on the D70. With the "cracked" 10D firmware it is a formidable bargain and great value.

Which digital camera were you using in 1994? My first was a Kodak D50 in 1996, quickly followed by a string of consumer 640 x 480, 1.3MP, and 3.1MP all-in-one cameras, ending with the Nikon 990. I was just reading an artical about the Kodak NC2000 a few weeks ago. Pretty interesting. A 1.3MP professional camera for $11,000.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6463-7191

Anyway, thanks for the banter. My continued condolences (my opinion only!) on your XT purchase. As with all things many people agree to disagree. this is one of those cases.

Thanks again.

I started off with an Apple QuickTake 100. Great camera for 1994. Went through a few cheap cameras of little historical value (Largan, etc) and stuck with a Kodak DC280 for several years. Went through the entire Powershot line, plus several Minolta, Nikon, and Kodaks. Bought and sold a Panasonic DMC-FZ10 just before the dSLR phase. Here's a less-than-stellar result from the FZ10: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~alba/eclipse.jpg.

Like you, I liked the dReb but I found it a bit restrictive even with the Wasia or Undutchables firmware hacks. I need to be able to switch metering or focus modes at will. So what made you give up on the XT in your 15 scant minutes with it? I hope you're not the same way with people... ;)

D70FAN
04-02-2005, 07:25 PM
I started off with an Apple QuickTake 100. Great camera for 1994. Went through a few cheap cameras of little historical value (Largan, etc) and stuck with a Kodak DC280 for several years. Went through the entire Powershot line, plus several Minolta, Nikon, and Kodaks. Bought and sold a Panasonic DMC-FZ10 just before the dSLR phase. Here's a less-than-stellar result from the FZ10: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~alba/eclipse.jpg.

Like you, I liked the dReb but I found it a bit restrictive even with the Wasia or Undutchables firmware hacks. I need to be able to switch metering or focus modes at will. So what made you give up on the XT in your 15 scant minutes with it? I hope you're not the same way with people... ;)

Seriously, I am truely impressed. You have used consumer digital cameras I have never heard of... and every Powershot camera (?!?), plus Nikon, Kodak, Minolta! Wow. I had no idea. Sorry I doubted your background.

You are correct. 15 minutes is not enough time to evaluate a dSLR. So I went back and suffered through 30 more, just to make an appearence. The camera store guy was cracking up.

Incidentely, nice barb. Thanks for making it personal.

To be honest, I don't really care what camera you buy. It's not my money. And again seriously, as before...I really wish you well with the XT.

DiJ
04-03-2005, 10:52 AM
Hey George, like what Gabester had said we each had our preference and the important thing is choosing a right camera for that. In your original post you said that Rebel XT didnt cut it for you. So actually thats fine, its your preference. But in what areas to you prefer on the D70? Just curious.

TheObiJuan
04-03-2005, 02:42 PM
from what I have read him say, I would say.. weight, contruction, intuitive layout, flash sync, kit lens.

Li wei
04-04-2005, 12:48 PM
Sorry, I'm burned out on this subject. I'm sorry that you can't see the king is naked. Long live the king.

George, I don't know dslr before, but I agree with your logic. That's why I broke bank and ordered 20d from dell outlet last Saturday for 1188.00. I think it's a good deal, is it?
btw, lots of people said that the color comes out from sigma 18-125 is a little washed out. is that true? can i fix it by adjusting the saturation in 20d?

thanks

D70FAN
04-04-2005, 01:50 PM
George, I don't know dslr before, but I agree with your logic. That's why I broke bank and ordered 20d from dell outlet last Saturday for 1188.00. I think it's a good deal, is it?
btw, lots of people said that the color comes out from sigma 18-125 is a little washed out. is that true? can i fix it by adjusting the saturation in 20d?

thanks

Li wei, I agree with your decision 100%. It will be worth the extra $200-$300 as the 20D will still be a great camera 5 years from now, and I'm sure you will still be very happy with the images and the overall performace.

As for the color using the Sigma, I suppose that you could kick it up, but here are some images right out of the camera (using a D70 in this case).

http://d70fan.smugmug.com/gallery/197044

http://d70fan.smugmug.com/gallery/444129/1/17861605

Feel free to wander around the gallery as most of the pictures were taken with the Sigma 18-125, with a few of the early Grand Canyon shots using the Nikkor 18-70, and a couple of others using the Tamron 28-300. Most are titled.

Li wei
04-04-2005, 02:25 PM
Thanks George, I kneely enjoy your wonderful pictures :eek:

D70FAN
04-04-2005, 03:16 PM
Thanks George, I kneely enjoy your wonderful pictures :eek:


Thanks in return, I hope that the :eek: was a good thing. I think you will agree that the color saturation from the D70/Sigma combo is pretty natural, and should be similar from the 20D, but many people like oversaturation (which is why Velvia film was so popular).

Anyway, If you like more color just boost the saturation in post processing.

We look forward to seeing your pictures from the 20D.

Li wei
04-04-2005, 10:20 PM
Thansk in return, I hope that the :eek: was a good thing.

Yes, I really like your pictures, especially the Roadside Reds and the A Church In Chandler. I may go to get a sigma 18-125. I hope that lens in your hand is not a exceptional one.



We look forward to seeing your pictures from the 20D.

Thanks, I'll try :o

D70FAN
04-05-2005, 07:11 AM
Yes, I really like your pictures, especially the Roadside Reds and the A Church In Chandler. I may go to get a sigma 18-125. I hope that lens in your hand is not a exceptional one.

Thanks, I'll try :o

I don't want you to think that the Sigma 18-125 is perfect. Like most consumer lenses it does have some settings that work better than others.

If you zoom all the way to 125 you will see vignetting (corners get dark) so you will need to set the aperture to f8 or greater, or back off to about 110mm. Since most of the time when using long tele you will be shooting in daytime using f8 -f11 is pretty easy. This still allows better range than the 18-55 kit lens.

Other than that I can't think of any other issues. ;)

D70FAN
04-05-2005, 04:40 PM
we've seen you make a lot of posts regarding the XT and the D70 lately, MAYBE you're taking this all a little too seriously. in fact, i felt my post was very non-serious VERY non-aggressive so i'm surprised i even got a response from you at all. what surprised me even more is the defensive tone in your reply.

"Third and last: Where did that final quote come from? Certainly not from me. So I would appreciate it if you would remove it asap, and answer it in a separate response."

c'mon, Really? i assumed everybody would know that i was not quoting you. you do know where that quote came from right?

the only thing that bugs me is how often you've stated and restated your opinon of how the D70 is so great and that you would never be caught dead with a rebel. i mean, alright, we get it. weren't you the guy who said something like: we should all be happy we even have d-slr's so we shouldn't argue about equipment.? now i'm getting a different message.

Sorry, I did not address this sooner. Just to set the record straight, I don't think I have ever said I "wouldn't be caught dead with a Rebel". In fact I have recommended the DReb to several people as a starter dSLR rather than a high end all-in-one. And I think that I have represented the D70, as well as the *ist DS and others fairly in my comments. The XT should be no different.

And you are definately correct. I did say we should be greatful that we can afford dSLR's, and shouldn't argue about equipment. And I truely believe that.

So again my appologies to all, for getting caught up in a pissing contest. It won't happen again.

speaklightly
04-05-2005, 06:54 PM
George-

I can relate to your feelings. You see, I feel somewhat the same way. For me, at least, after almost 1,100 posts I am feeling the need to move onward.

You will notice that I did NOT post a POD (photo of the day) for 04/05/2005. I have scrambled and done comparative photos or whatever anyone requested, with little or no recognition, whenever requested, but frankly, I feel a bit put down just because I am a woman.

So, I have have made the decision to move onward. As you know there are indeed other sites and other forums. I wish all of you the very best. You, especially, George have been very kind, and I really appreciate that.

My exercise with the posting of the Canon 350XT, Canon 20D, Nikon D-70 samples was the last draw. You boys have a nice time now and Goodbye.

Sarah Joyce

D70FAN
04-05-2005, 07:26 PM
George-

I can relate to your feelings. You see, I feel somewhat the same way. For me, at least, after almost 1,100 posts I am feeling the need to move onward.

You will notice that I did NOT post a POD (photo of the day) for 04/05/2005. I have scrambled and done comparative photos or whatever anyone requested, with little or no recognition, whenever requested, but frankly, I feel a bit put down just because I am a woman.

So, I have have made the decision to move onward. As you know there are indeed other sites and other forums. I wish all of you the very best. You, especially, George have been very kind, and I really appreciate that.

My exercise with the posting of the Canon 350XT, Canon 20D, Nikon D-70 samples was the last draw. You boys have a nice time now and Goodbye.

Sarah Joyce

Sorry to hear that Sarah. I think that the majority of long-term members here have enjoyed your efforts and hope you might reconsider. Your depth of first hand camera knowlege/ownership and contributions have been invaluable to the members of this site.

I will be posting less as well in the future, but will continue to monitor the ongoing threads that I started. Keep in touch.

speaklightly
04-05-2005, 07:42 PM
Sorry to hear that Sarah. I think that the majority of long-term members here have enjoyed your efforts and hope you might reconsider. Your depth of first hand camera knowlege/ownership and contributions have been invaluable to the members of this site.

I will be posting less as well in the future, but will continue to monitor the ongoing threads that I started. Keep in touch.


George-

Thanks for your post! Off I go, there REALLY is not much to keep me here. I know that it is a bad attitude problem. However, whenever I do my best, and get the "right stuuf" up there in record time, somebody want to pick it apart.

Bradley and I have a full life doing workshops all over the world and selling our four books on digital cameras. You just have to know when to pull the plug. And I think this is the time.

Sarah Joyce

jamison55
04-05-2005, 08:01 PM
George-

Thanks for your post! Off I go, there REALLY is not much to keep me here. I know that it is a bad attitude problem. However, whenever I do my best, and get the "right stuuf" up there in record time, somebody want to pick it apart.

Bradley and I have a full life doing workshops all over the world and selling our four books on digital cameras. You just have to know when to pull the plug. And I think this is the time.

Sarah Joyce

Sarah,

Sorry to see you go. Your contributions and insights have really added a lot of value to this board. Your loss will be felt by all...

Mike Woods
04-05-2005, 08:03 PM
George-

I can relate to your feelings. You see, I feel somewhat the same way. For me, at least, after almost 1,100 posts I am feeling the need to move onward.

You will notice that I did NOT post a POD (photo of the day) for 04/05/2005. I have scrambled and done comparative photos or whatever anyone requested, with little or no recognition, whenever requested, but frankly, I feel a bit put down just because I am a woman.

So, I have have made the decision to move onward. As you know there are indeed other sites and other forums. I wish all of you the very best. You, especially, George have been very kind, and I really appreciate that.

My exercise with the posting of the Canon 350XT, Canon 20D, Nikon D-70 samples was the last draw. You boys have a nice time now and Goodbye.

Sarah Joyce


Sarah, I for one will hate to see you go. Although I seldom comment on most of these posts, I find the information very valuable. I think there are a few people on here that just like to hear themselves talk, but I believe most of us appreciate the time that goes into this message board. I hope you reconsider.

propwash
04-05-2005, 08:17 PM
Sarah Joyce,

I will echo the others' sentiments. I have really appreciated and learned a lot from your posts here. If you get a chance, see the PM I sent you.

Once again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with all of us here.

ReF
04-05-2005, 08:40 PM
Sorry, I did not address this sooner. Just to set the record straight, I don't think I have ever said I "wouldn't be caught dead with a Rebel". In fact I have recommended the DReb to several people as a starter dSLR rather than a high end all-in-one. And I think that I have represented the D70, as well as the *ist DS and others fairly in my comments. The XT should be no different.

And you are definately correct. I did say we should be greatful that we can afford dSLR's, and shouldn't argue about equipment. And I truely believe that.

So again my appologies to all, for getting caught up in a pissing contest. It won't happen again.

hahaha! i try to be careful about getting caught in "pissing contests" myself and i really don't like to read threads with heated arguments much either. i think you've taken enough heat here already so i think we should all back up off of george.

ReF
04-05-2005, 08:45 PM
George-

I can relate to your feelings. You see, I feel somewhat the same way. For me, at least, after almost 1,100 posts I am feeling the need to move onward.

You will notice that I did NOT post a POD (photo of the day) for 04/05/2005. I have scrambled and done comparative photos or whatever anyone requested, with little or no recognition, whenever requested, but frankly, I feel a bit put down just because I am a woman.

So, I have have made the decision to move onward. As you know there are indeed other sites and other forums. I wish all of you the very best. You, especially, George have been very kind, and I really appreciate that.

My exercise with the posting of the Canon 350XT, Canon 20D, Nikon D-70 samples was the last draw. You boys have a nice time now and Goodbye.

Sarah Joyce

i had no idea people were giving you sh*t and that you felt that way. perhaps i just wasn't paying attention. well, sorry to see you go, and i hope you reconsider as well. maybe you could still pop in every once in a while :o

haikai
04-05-2005, 10:08 PM
You will notice that I did NOT post a POD (photo of the day) for 04/05/2005. I have scrambled and done comparative photos or whatever anyone requested, with little or no recognition, whenever requested, but frankly, I feel a bit put down just because I am a woman.

although it may not be expressed, i'd like to think that your efforts are appreciated, Sarah. image examples and user experiences with these cameras is invaluable. i'm sorry to hear that you feel chauvanist vibes around here... perhaps with the internet at everyone's fingertips these days, we all take this information (the product of someone's hard work) for granted sometimes.

if anything, this has probably been the most civil "pissing contest" i've ever read through (one reason i check back on this forum with any regularity is because most others i've stumbled across are cesspits of flaming posts). what can i say? people get passionate about the subjects they love. :o

-hai

ReF
04-06-2005, 04:37 PM
if anything, this has probably been the most civil "pissing contest" i've ever read through (one reason i check back on this forum with any regularity is because most others i've stumbled across are cesspits of flaming posts).
-hai


i totally agree. i don't even bother with the other forums i've been to because all i see is a bunch of really childish bickering between snobs. thank goodness this forum is still what it is (for the most part).