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Bluedog
03-16-2005, 10:06 PM
I wanna see lots of images. Especially in the higher ISO range, so get to work ... :cool:

TheObiJuan
03-17-2005, 09:11 AM
well I just purchased it. give me a few days and I will post some images up.

Bluedog
03-17-2005, 09:35 AM
Thanks. I'm curious of the focus @ higher numbered apertures too. I'll be patiently waiting ... :cool:

speaklightly
03-17-2005, 05:39 PM
Bluedog-

I also have one (Canon 350XT) on the way to me. So, I am happy to provide samples. Can you be a bit more specific as to the type of digital photos you are seeking?

Sarah Joyce

sherlock
03-17-2005, 07:15 PM
Bluedog-

I also have one (Canon 350XT) on the way to me. So, I am happy to provide samples. Can you be a bit more specific as to the type of digital photos you are seeking?

Sarah Joyce


Sarah,

If this camera lives up to the hype, will it be replacing your 20D? :D


Andrew S.

Bluedog
03-17-2005, 08:24 PM
Sarah the sample Jeff has in his XT gallery of the statue. The grass just didn't look right, kinda out of focus for the Aperture that was used. I've look at a lot of Pbase gallery 350D/XT images and some look really good but others aren't that great. Maybe the Kit is the problem. Anyway it'll be interesting to see your results.

Thanks

D70FAN
03-17-2005, 09:08 PM
Sarah the sample Jeff has in his XT gallery of the statue. The grass just didn't look right, kinda out of focus for the Aperture that was used. I've look at a lot of Pbase gallery 350D/XT images and some look really good but others aren't that great. Maybe the Kit is the problem. Anyway it'll be interesting to see your results.

Thanks

That seems to be the general results. This isn't a 20D (or even a D70). It's a DReb! With the processor it should have had 18 months ago.

The king is naked...

kave
03-17-2005, 11:33 PM
That seems to be the general results. This isn't a 20D (or even a D70). It's a DReb! With the processor it should have had 18 months ago.

The king is naked...
Hmm, let me see, who do we trust more, a professional or an amature?
Michael Reichman at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/xt-350d.shtml writes:
"Colour reproduction is among the best that I've yet seen from a DSLR. Try as I might, I can't find any aspect of the camera's ability to handle colour to be problematic. It's actually somewhat more accurate than that of the 20D, though the differences are a quibble. Excellent colour performance."
And:
"There's no question that the 20D is the superior camera in almost every respect, except image quality which is comparable between the two. But, the 350XT attracts with its small size and low weight. If I was hiking the Himalayas for two weeks I know which one I'd bring."

speaklightly
03-18-2005, 07:50 AM
Andrew-

No, this will not replace my 20D. It is a birthday present for my husband. We share cameras back and forth, but he was especially interested in the 350 XT. We are putting the Tokina 24-200 lens on it. The lens arrived yesterday and I have already done some very early morning test shots with the Tokina lens on my 20D and it looks good. I will have more samples later in the day.

Sarah Joyce

Bluedog
03-18-2005, 03:24 PM
A quote from Kaves link:

"Rear LCD Menus Faulty Design?
When I was out the first morning with the 350XT I was shooting in bright sunlight. I was immediately very concerned to note that sometimes the settings screens on the rear LCD were almost unreadable. I later found this to even be a problem indoors.

Once my shoot was over, and I sat down with the camera, and with a 20D and 1Ds MKII also in hand, I discovered why this is the case. The 350XT's screen itself is just as bright as that on the 20D when reviewing images, and that's very good indeed. But the 350XT, for some reason known only to the engineers in Tokyo, has changed the look of the menu screens in a way that dramatically reduces legibility.

When one is moving the selection highlight along the top of the menu screen between major headings, only the heading item selected is bright, the rest of the screen items are dimmed. This makes it very difficult to know what's on that heading's list, even in moderate light conditions, let alone in bright daylight."

Thats not too good. One of the things I consider very important.

NewTekBuzz
03-18-2005, 05:21 PM
sherlock..... "replacing the 20D"???? ummmm thats a good one

speaklightly
03-18-2005, 05:27 PM
Blue Dog-

Let's wait a bit shall we? I saw the same write-up. But that may indeed be one person's opinion. Let's not push the issue. Wait until we get it in the field and I will be able to honestly tell you more.

Sarah Joyce

Bluedog
03-18-2005, 06:33 PM
Blue Dog-

Let's wait a bit shall we? I saw the same write-up. But that may indeed be one person's opinion. Let's not push the issue. Wait until we get it in the field and I will be able to honestly tell you more.

Sarah Joyce

Thanks as I'll be patiently waiting for your results. ;)

hoolio
03-18-2005, 06:35 PM
I wanna see lots of images. Especially in the higher ISO range, so get to work ... :cool:

Just picked up an XT today. Here is a pic that was taken in full auto mode with the Kit lens. The light was not great as it was getting dark. ISO is 400.
Thoughts ???

sherlock
03-18-2005, 06:46 PM
sherlock..... "replacing the 20D"???? ummmm thats a good one

Hey,

It was mearly a joke, I know how great of a camera the 20D is. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Andrew S.

sherlock
03-18-2005, 06:48 PM
Just picked up an XT today. Here is a pic that was taken in full auto mode with the Kit lens. The light was not great as it was getting dark. ISO is 400.
Thoughts ???

Hey,

Colors look good, although the image isn't very sharp overall. Anyone else see this, or is it just my eyes?

Andrew S.

speaklightly
03-18-2005, 07:08 PM
Andrew-

You are very correct. The colors do look quite good. And the overall sharpness is not bad. No, it is not a 20D or a Nikon D-70 image but it is very much about what you would expect from the Canon 350 XT. I think it is a rather good example.

Sarah Joyce

hoolio
03-18-2005, 07:13 PM
I like this one but there is lots of loss going to 800x600. Good close up with cheap lens.

gary_hendricks
03-18-2005, 07:58 PM
Just picked up an XT today. Here is a pic that was taken in full auto mode with the Kit lens. The light was not great as it was getting dark. ISO is 400.
Thoughts ???

Hi hoolio, I think the image quality is pretty good. Makes me wanna try the XT out ... :)

D70FAN
03-18-2005, 09:10 PM
You guys are kidding...right?

No offense, but you might want to change lenses. If it's not the lens then I don't know what to tell you. Hopefully this is just a fluke. We will wait for the next photos...

D70FAN
03-18-2005, 09:23 PM
Hmm, let me see, who do we trust more, a professional or an amature?
Michael Reichman at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/xt-350d.shtml writes:
"Colour reproduction is among the best that I've yet seen from a DSLR. Try as I might, I can't find any aspect of the camera's ability to handle colour to be problematic. It's actually somewhat more accurate than that of the 20D, though the differences are a quibble. Excellent colour performance."
And:
"There's no question that the 20D is the superior camera in almost every respect, except image quality – which is comparable between the two. But, the 350XT attracts with its small size and low weight. If I was hiking the Himalayas for two weeks I know which one I'd bring."

Actually I trust my eyes. Obviously Reichmans camera was not the same as the 3 examples I've see so far. I may be an amature, but I've been an active amature for the better part of 40 years, and I think I know a good shot from bad.

So look at the images so far. You have to admit that they are inconsistant at best. Great color though. ;)

D70FAN
03-18-2005, 09:28 PM
"There's no question that the 20D is the superior camera in almost every respect, except image quality – which is comparable between the two. But, the 350XT attracts with its small size and low weight. If I was hiking the Himalayas for two weeks I know which one I'd bring."

Yeah right! And I've got an bridge in San Francisco for sale. Reichman you are so full of it. If he was hiking anywhere (which is not likely) he would take the 350D? I can't believe he said that.

Luminous Landscape has just lost a reader.

TheObiJuan
03-19-2005, 02:15 AM
ahem, it was a typo, he meant D70. :D
does that make it better?

NewTekBuzz
03-19-2005, 04:24 AM
Sherlock.. I was just playin :)

That is a nice looking pick BTW "two thumbs up"

D70FAN
03-19-2005, 07:48 AM
ahem, it was a typo, he meant D70. :D
does that make it better?

Actually no,because I'm pretty sure that he would take the best camera he has in his arsenal. I'm guessing he has a 1D or a D1X lurking in the collection. The extra 2.5 onces weight savings is nothing.

jamison55
03-19-2005, 08:27 AM
Wow, this post is like deja-vu. When the original DReb came out, all sorts of folks argued ceaselessly about it. The bottom line though, was that it took great pictures. In fact most professional reviews placed its images in the same class as the better-built, more fully featured 10D...plastic body, crippled firmware and all. Most professional reviewers are now saying the same thing about the 20D vs the XT. Surprise, surprise...Canon, the big corporation that it is, makes a camera that is more consumer geared than the 20D and sells it at a far more consumer friendly price. The area they didn't compromise on is the most important of all - image quality (just like the original DReb). So it comes down to this - if image quality is your #1 concern, the XT delivers quality that exceeds its $1000 price point.

When I bought my first DSLR, I didn't have a whole lot to spend on a camera, so based on the image quality reports from the pro reviewers I bought the DReb. That is the camera that built my business. In fact all of the images that are currently on my website came from that camera, all of th images in the portfolio that I use to sell my service came from that camera, I still use that camera during events next to my 20D when I want to have lenses with two different focal lenghts.

So for most consumer applications, the XT appears to be one of the best options out there for <$1000.

prego_lala
03-19-2005, 12:06 PM
hey whats up with the purple fringing in the rebel xt gallery? (3rd on the top right for ex)
is it the lens?
i checked the 300d gallery and it does not have the horrible purple fringes going on.

D70FAN
03-19-2005, 06:28 PM
ahem, it was a typo, he meant D70. :D
does that make it better?

Actually no. But it would be a better choice. If Reichman was heading to the Himalayas or anywhere that reliability was in question, he wouldn't take a consumer dSLR. ;) So he's still full of balogna. :rolleyes:

sherlock
03-19-2005, 09:07 PM
Actually I trust my eyes. Obviously Reichmans camera was not the same as the 3 examples I've see so far. I may be an amature, but I've been an active amature for the better part of 40 years, and I think I know a good shot from bad.

So look at the images so far. You have to admit that they are inconsistant at best. Great color though. ;)

Hey,

I agree totally George, just looking at the three examples shown, aside from the color (and noise?), there is really not much to like. Maybe it's just the lenses, but they all seem too soft. Also, I was able to hold the Rebel XT today in the store, and I really don't care for the small size and weight. It just feels like a toy, even compared to the original Rebel, and especially to my D70. So far, the Rebel XT is not impressing me :confused: .


Andrew S.

D70FAN
03-20-2005, 07:08 AM
Hey,

I agree totally George, just looking at the three examples shown, aside from the color (and noise?), there is really not much to like. Maybe it's just the lenses, but they all seem too soft. Also, I was able to hold the Rebel XT today in the store, and I really don't care for the small size and weight. It just feels like a toy, even compared to the original Rebel, and especially to my D70. So far, the Rebel XT is not impressing me :confused: .


Andrew S.

First of all I need to quit using the word "actually". :o

Beyond that I have just been looking at Jamisons excellent comparison of lenses under the "Four Lenses Compared" thread, and his 20D (which is truely Canons breakthrough camera) shows what we have been seeing in the XT when using the 18-55 kit lens. The Sigma 18-50 f2.8 and the Tamron 28-75 f2.8 really shine here, and show why Canon basically gives the 18-55 away.

If this is the case (and I hope it is) then maybe the XT can hunt with the D70 and the *ist DS. So, "you guys with the XT", please post some pictures using a different lens. :)

speaklightly
03-20-2005, 07:44 AM
George-

When I ordered the XT for my husband's birthday, I purchased the body only and bought the Tokina 24-200mm lens for it, knowing that we could share the 20d's kit lens. Interestingly enough, the kit lens from the 20D is different than the XT's kit lens.

On Jamison's test, he did an excellent job but I was not too keen for the pink or rose colored tone in all the photos from the Sigma lens.

Sarah Joyce

jamison55
03-20-2005, 08:21 AM
If this is the case (and I hope it is) then maybe the XT can hunt with the D70 and the *ist DS. So, "you guys with the XT", please post some pictures using a different lens. :)

Anyone reading this have an XT in the Boston/Metro West area? If so, we can do a side-by-side comparison using my lenses (I have an 80-200L "magic drainpipe" on the way). PM me!

D70FAN
03-20-2005, 03:48 PM
George-

On Jamison's test, he did an excellent job but I was not too keen for the pink or rose colored tone in all the photos from the Sigma lens.

Sarah Joyce

Yes but you can easily edit for tonality. There is nothing that can be done for poor sharpness and definition. Also the Tamron was spectacular, showing no real negatives that I could see.

I'm looking forward to your input on the XT as always. :D

HotRod
03-20-2005, 07:48 PM
i dont know if you would call this a picture with poor sharpness and definition, but heres an example what you can do with photoshop..

pay attention to the face and hair..

original pic (http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cameras/howto/postprocessing/sharporig.jpg)

and with some photoshop.. (http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cameras/howto/postprocessing/sharp1.jpg)

D70FAN
03-20-2005, 08:39 PM
i dont know if you would call this a picture with poor sharpness and definition, but heres an example what you can do with photoshop..

pay attention to the face and hair..

original pic (http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cameras/howto/postprocessing/sharporig.jpg)

and with some photoshop.. (http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cameras/howto/postprocessing/sharp1.jpg)

Not quite the same, but a good recovery. I doubt that most of the shots I am referring to could be recovered as well, as the originals were far worse than this case.

NeilBlanchard
03-21-2005, 10:11 AM
Hello:

While the XT images look wonderful in many ways, in one way, some things look a little "off". The edges of objects where there is a fair amount of contrast look artifical; like they have been "punched up" by a photo editor. The specific items:

on the limestone covered walkway: the edge of the "golfcart" seat, and the edge of the wood ceiling framing where it meets the stone -- both look wrong.

on the interior mall with the metal trussed clerestory: the edge of the apple barrel against the darker background of the display unit also looks artificially enhanced.

Maybe this is related with what looks like a tendancy to overemphasis the darker areas of these images?

Also, on the interior mall image, there is a bit of purple fringing in the upper right, and upper left, as well as some fuzziness?

Sincerely, Neil

prego_lala
03-22-2005, 01:39 AM
yes please someone address the issue of the purple fringing.
thank you.

speaklightly
03-22-2005, 06:53 AM
Our DigReb XT is supposed to arrive today. So I will take a series of photos and post them so we will be able to see some "everyday/rainy weather/hauling it arround" kind of shots.

How does that sound?

Sarah Joyce

Bluedog
03-22-2005, 09:10 AM
Sounds good to me Sarah. I'm seriously considering the XT and Sigma 18-125mm F3.5-5.6 DC to start with. Waiting for my local Best Buy to get them in Stock.

For best performance which CF card (Brand & Type) do you recommend using?

gary_hendricks
03-22-2005, 09:11 AM
Hi all

Just got some feedback from a friend about his new Rebel XT regarding some cons about this the Rebel XT. Those who are thinking of buying it may want to reconsider. :D

1) Full Auto Exposure setting predominantly uses ISO 400 (instead of ISO 100) even in bright sunlight.
2) No ability to frame shot using LCD (major SLR shortcoming).
3) Focus screen and mirror dirty after just 3 days use (major SLR shortcoming). 4) Small LCD which is difficult to see in bright sunlight.
5) No retaining strap on lens cover.

Bluedog
03-22-2005, 09:33 AM
Hi all

Just got some feedback from a friend about his new Rebel XT regarding some cons about this the Rebel XT. Those who are thinking of buying it may want to reconsider. :D

1) Full Auto Exposure setting predominantly uses ISO 400 (instead of ISO 100) even in bright sunlight.
2) No ability to frame shot using LCD (major SLR shortcoming).
3) Focus screen and mirror dirty after just 3 days use (major SLR shortcoming). 4) Small LCD which is difficult to see in bright sunlight.
5) No retaining strap on lens cover.

1) Use Program Mode, TV or Aperature
2) I wonder if they'll ever have this option?
3) Changing lenses too often in not so good condtions?
4) That is an issue I wanna know more on ... :(
5) No comment on that one

D70FAN
03-22-2005, 09:35 AM
Hi all

Just got some feedback from a friend about his new Rebel XT regarding some cons about this the Rebel XT. Those who are thinking of buying it may want to reconsider. :D

1) Full Auto Exposure setting predominantly uses ISO 400 (instead of ISO 100) even in bright sunlight.
2) No ability to frame shot using LCD (major SLR shortcoming).
3) Focus screen and mirror dirty after just 3 days use (major SLR shortcoming). 4) Small LCD which is difficult to see in bright sunlight.
5) No retaining strap on lens cover.

Gary, Hopefully the :D , means you are kidding around on this... right? If not, your freind may be even more disappointed to know that there is no video mode... ;)

speaklightly
03-22-2005, 12:25 PM
Bluedog-

The DigReb XT arrived 10 minutes ago and here is the first photo taken. It was with the kit lens that came with my 20D. Later in the day we will try some more photos, b ut it is raining hard right now.

Sarah Joyce

D70FAN
03-22-2005, 12:34 PM
Bluedog-

The DigReb XT arrived 10 minutes ago and here is the first photo taken. It was with the kit lens that came with my 20D. Later in the day we will try some more photos, b ut it is raining hard right now.

Sarah Joyce

You need to post this up on smugmug. I'm seeing moire' in the shirt and sheening on the face. Probably due to my display (IBM T41 Laptop) and the picture being reduced resoution.

speaklightly
03-22-2005, 02:12 PM
George-

I will upload full resolution photos to smugmug.com so viewers can a better view of the actual photo quality. It is still raining heavily right now so we are sort of limited in what we can do for samples photos.

Sarah Joyce

TheObiJuan
03-22-2005, 02:16 PM
I will aslo postsome pictures, and 100% crops for the pixel peepers, tomorrow.
or, possibly tonight.

any requests George?
ISO 1600 crops of course will be included.

D70FAN
03-22-2005, 02:47 PM
George-

I will upload full resolution photos to smugmug.com so viewers can a better view of the actual photo quality. It is still raining heavily right now so we are sort of limited in what we can do for samples photos.

Sarah Joyce

Just the one you posted would be fine.

D70FAN
03-22-2005, 02:50 PM
I will aslo postsome pictures, and 100% crops for the pixel peepers, tomorrow.
or, possibly tonight.

any requests George?
ISO 1600 crops of course will be included.

No special requests... just please post the lens type and base shooting data with the pictures. :)

speaklightly
03-22-2005, 05:41 PM
O.K. These are fairly mundane shots, but keep in mine it has been raining all day today. Here is the link:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/447760

Sarah Joyce

speaklightly
03-22-2005, 05:59 PM
I apologize! I was rushing to get that link posted and trying to get dinner on the table as well. The lens used was a Tokina 24-200mm F 3.5-5.6

The link again is:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/447760

Sarah Joyce

nate
03-22-2005, 06:21 PM
Hi all

Just got some feedback from a friend about his new Rebel XT regarding some cons about this the Rebel XT. Those who are thinking of buying it may want to reconsider. :D

1) Full Auto Exposure setting predominantly uses ISO 400 (instead of ISO 100) even in bright sunlight.
2) No ability to frame shot using LCD (major SLR shortcoming).
3) Focus screen and mirror dirty after just 3 days use (major SLR shortcoming). 4) Small LCD which is difficult to see in bright sunlight.
5) No retaining strap on lens cover.

Your friend's name doesn't happen to be Dave, does it?

(source) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AKMEQAE2AOBQU/ref=cm_aya_rev_more/103-5253687-0162239?%5Fencoding=UTF8) :D

Bluedog
03-22-2005, 06:57 PM
Your friend's name doesn't happen to be Dave, does it?

(source) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AKMEQAE2AOBQU/ref=cm_aya_rev_more/103-5253687-0162239?%5Fencoding=UTF8) :D

LOL ... its a small world isn't it ... ;)

Sarah I must admit I'm not too impressed so far. The image quality @ ISO 1600 is nice though. Maybe I was expecting something else. How 'bout some side by side D70 vs XT if its not asking too much.

D70FAN
03-22-2005, 07:17 PM
O.K. These are fairly mundane shots, but keep in mine it has been raining all day today. Here is the link:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/447760

Sarah Joyce

Ya know, even with the better lens, these are kind of...well...disappointing. Not bad, but similar to what we might see from the G6. Even accounting for Oregon weather, there is something missing. To bad you didn't shoot these with the 20D or D70 at the same time.

We probably should wait for the clear weather shots.

TheObiJuan
03-22-2005, 08:36 PM
I decided to hold off on posting the shots until I can do a direct comparison with my friends 20D.
100% crops at all ISO's of different types of images.

Bluedog
03-22-2005, 08:52 PM
TheObiJuan ... now that'd be nice to see so get to work. ;)

speaklightly
03-23-2005, 05:24 PM
We had some sunshine today-

So we found the perfect house for George and got some new test photo for you comparing the 350XT and the 20D taking the same photos with the same lens.

Check out this:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/449518

Sarah Joyce

TheObiJuan
03-23-2005, 05:51 PM
its hard to tell the difference without 100% crops of the same area.
It looks like the 350D's images are brighter...
but the 20D has more contrast??

Bluedog
03-23-2005, 06:38 PM
Nice job Sarah. Seems the XT is holding its own for the price difference between the two cameras.

Mr. Peabody
03-24-2005, 06:54 PM
That Tokina lens is mighty impressive.

I might have to check it out.

Mr. Peabody
03-24-2005, 08:35 PM
btw, Sarah, I really browsed through your site. There are a lot of great pictures on it. I really enjoyed them.

TheObiJuan
03-25-2005, 06:59 AM
the 20D vs 350D test is done.
I am processing the images to get them alligned, cropped, and resized.

gary_hendricks
03-25-2005, 08:49 AM
I like this one but there is lots of loss going to 800x600. Good close up with cheap lens.

That IBM Thinkpad keyboard looks very sharp. Nice shot. :)

D70FAN
03-25-2005, 09:14 AM
We had some sunshine today-

So we found the perfect house for George and got some new test photo for you comparing the 350XT and the 20D taking the same photos with the same lens.

Check out this:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/449518

Sarah Joyce

Sarah, You need to post that one on the lighthouse site with base info on where and camera basics.

Thanks.

speaklightly
03-26-2005, 10:26 AM
I posted two more samples to the album. These are at a 150% crop to show more detail. You will find them at:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/449518

Sarah Joyce

sherlock
03-26-2005, 10:33 AM
I posted two more samples to the album. These are at a 150% crop to show more detail. You will find them at:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/449518

Sarah Joyce

Hey Sarah,

I thank you for your efforts toward this thread. Looking at your shots I can see that the XT has very good photo quality, but not as good as the 20D. Also, the XT photos seem overexposed compared with the 20D, do you think this is an ongoing problem? Then again, maybe it's just my eyes :rolleyes: .


Andrew S.

speaklightly
03-26-2005, 11:26 AM
Andrew-

You raise an excellent point, that I have also seen. For now, I think it is too early to judge quite yet.

I will add more photos to the album progressively as Bradley and I shoot more digital photos together.

Sarah Joyce

D70FAN
03-26-2005, 12:01 PM
Andrew-

You raise an excellent point, that I have also seen. For now, I think it is too early to judge quite yet.

I will add more photos to the album progressively as Bradley and I shoot more digital photos together.

Sarah Joyce

Opinion to follow:

First I want to say that it is terrific that there are people out there that will go to these lengths to support a camera company, and yes Nikonians are just as bad.

But, ya-know, you are all spending entirely too much time and effort trying to prove that the 350D is worthy of everyones praise. From what I've seen the camera does an good job with the right lens, and Canon could have saved a few bucks more on the sensor and kept it at 6MP. The original DReb had a few shortcommings, but picture quality was not one of them. As I have mentioned before the 8MP sensor was thrown in to make it appear that the camera was better than the competition (which it isn't). But Canon had to pay for retooling somehow, and guess what? It worked. There must be thousands of people out buying the DReb XT thinking it is a bargain 20D (again, which it isn't).

You really didn't think that Canon would torpedo their flagship did you? Why would they make a camera whose picture quality was the equal of the 20D? They just needed something to shift the focus from the D70. And they did.

More pictures will not make the 350D a consistantly superior (or even equal) camera to the 20D. The current 5 million photos on 2000 different web sites using every lens on earth, have pretty much proved this to be the case (ok maybe an exaggeration :rolleyes: ). But the fact is you will spend as much on a great lens, to make the 350D into a 20D, as you would have spent on the 20D and a kit lens with the same result.

If anything Sarahs (great) pictures, and efforts, have made that statement.

So what would be really nice is less redundant analysis, and more great pictures.

End of rant...part 2.

HotRod
03-26-2005, 12:45 PM
i thought both kit lenses is the EF-S 18-55mm?

speaklightly
03-26-2005, 01:42 PM
hotrod-

While the kit lens for the Canon 20D and the 350 XT do indeed have the same appearance and focal length, if you look very closely at the front lens mount, an EXTRA roman numeral has been added to the kit lens for the 350 XT, making it a bit different from the kit lens that comes with the Canon 20D.

Sarah Joyce

speaklightly
03-26-2005, 01:52 PM
George-

I agree a lot with your comments in rant #2. Like you, George, personally, I would also like to see more photo and technique sharing, rather than spending time on nit-picking minute optical differences. Please do not get me wrong!! All I am saying is that those are my priorities. Other folks may indeed want to do other things, and that is fine.

I am fired up to get my hands on the Nikon D-70 that I have on order. Then, I can post some more photos. We just have to understand Canon's logic. They (Canon) could not afford to undermine the 20D. Therefore, the 350XT has to be "the smaller brother."

Sarah Joyce

DiJ
03-26-2005, 11:28 PM
Why do you think picture quality is not good as the 20d? From Speaklightly's samples they almost exactly the same. The 350d's exposure is a little brighter but still far from over exposing the scene. That said I actually prefered 350d in the lighthouse pictures you can see shadow details better and focus is noticeably sharper on the window areas. For the indoor pictures iso noise is just as good as 20d.

350d is never meant to be as good as the 20d. The ergonomics, viewfinder, burst speed and menu system are a step down. But theres improvements in size and weight and a much quieter and better damped mirror over 20d. Compared to 300d almost everything is improved. Less noise at high iso, FEC, more option over metering modes, mirror lockup, AF options and much improved white balance controls. If you can live with the minor issues above i dont see why you cant get similar results as a 20d.

D70FAN
03-27-2005, 08:21 AM
Why do you think picture quality is not good as the 20d? From Speaklightly's samples they almost exactly the same. The 350d's exposure is a little brighter but still far from over exposing the scene. That said I actually prefered 350d in the lighthouse pictures you can see shadow details better and focus is noticeably sharper on the window areas. For the indoor pictures iso noise is just as good as 20d.

350d is never meant to be as good as the 20d. The ergonomics, viewfinder, burst speed and menu system are a step down. But theres improvements in size and weight and a much quieter and better damped mirror over 20d. Compared to 300d almost everything is improved. Less noise at high iso, FEC, more option over metering modes, mirror lockup, AF options and much improved white balance controls. If you can live with the minor issues above i dont see why you cant get similar results as a 20d.

I've seen some great shots from the DReb (300D). If you can live with the minor issues why not buy a 300D? Stick a nice lens on it and go.

Why take a step down when you can buy a D70 and take a step up. That's the point that seems to be lost here. Not whether the 350D is better than the 300D, or not as good as the 20D. That's a given.

TheObiJuan
03-27-2005, 09:53 AM
I would have to say that I disagree about the "better." I am the photographer for a local Paintball field, and yesterday it was very sunny. ISO 100 sure did help, where is it on the nikon? Then as I was going indoors to outdoors, the very very clean IS0 800 shots sure did help keep my shutter speeds high. For me, what I find important in a camera is the quality of the images. The 350D does it for me where the D70 falls short. I also wear glasses and found the diopeter adjustment to not have enough + reach for me. The viewfinder was not as clear for me as the 350D. Having 7 focus points arranged in an intuitive array sure did help when trying to get the best shots possible. Mirror lockup was handy one one shot..no where to be found on your "better" camera. The extra buffer let me squeeze in about 14-18 shots in, this helped when I was taking an action sequence, the d70 is limited down to 12.
Oh yeah, after 7 hours of carrying the camera, every ounce counts. Enjoy your "better" camera. I would rather describe our cameras as similar, or competing models, or somewhat equivalent.
Regards,
Juan Manuel.

Bluedog
03-27-2005, 12:36 PM
After reading a lot of other on line Forums it seems that most peoples negative experience with the Rebel XT is more of a denial state making excuses as to why they don't like the camera rather than all the benefits it brings into play. Its almost like they can't believe Canon came out with a camera thats better than the 300D. Hopefully next week I can finally put my hands on one and decide for myself as I did recently with the D70, which I found to be a superb camera but a little on the bulky side for my liking. I just prefer light weight and smaller size for more portability.

As far as image qulity goes the more and more XT galleries that are popping up have some very nice photos results that I've seen.

D70FAN
03-27-2005, 01:43 PM
I would have to say that I disagree about the "better." I am the photographer for Panther Creek Paintball, and yesterday it was very sunny. ISO 100 sure did help, where is it on the nikon? Then as I was going indoors to outdoors, the very very clean IS0 800 shots sure did help keep my shutter speeds high. For me, what I find important in a camera is the quality of the images. The 350D does it for me where the D70 falls short. I also wear glasses and found the diopeter adjustment to not have enough + reach for me. The viewfinder was not as clear for me as the 350D. Having 7 focus points arranged in an intuitive array sure did help when trying to get the best shots possible. Mirror lockup was handy one one shot..no where to be found on your "better" camera. The extra buffer let me squeeze in about 14-18 shots in, this helped when I was taking an action sequence, the d70 is limited down to 12.
Oh yeah, after 7 hours of carrying the camera, every ounce counts. Enjoy your "better" camera. I would rather describe our cameras as similar, or competing models, or somewhat equivalent.
Regards,
Juan Manuel.

I would agree that these cameras compete, and I never said that the 350D was not a good camera. There just wasn't much thought or effort put into making it a great camera like it's more expensive sibling.

But to answer your points:

1. ISO100? Meet ISO200 with 1/8000sec shutter speed.

2. Mirror Lockup..I have no idea of what purpose this serves. My mirror lock is for cleaning. If the purpose is for long exposures then 30 seconds is more than I have ever needed.

3. 14 - 18 frame, frame buffer...you got me on that one, but typcally I get 12-15. About the only time I use this is for goofing around catching lightning strikes or at baseball games and racing events. Haven't missed one yet.

4. 2.5 Ounce weight difference?...time to start working out. I'm an old guy, and have no problem carrying the D70 all day.

kave
03-27-2005, 10:39 PM
I've seen some great shots from the DReb (300D). If you can live with the minor issues why not buy a 300D? Stick a nice lens on it and go.

Why take a step down when you can buy a D70 and take a step up. That's the point that seems to be lost here. Not whether the 350D is better than the 300D, or not as good as the 20D. That's a given.
First, the 350D is an improvement over the 300d wether you like it to be or not, end of discussion.
Second, the price difference between the two is very small
Third, why discuss your big idol in the Canon forum?
Four your record, the eos20d is not the current flagship in the SLR range. It's the EOS 1 range where the 350d got it's processor from.

TheObiJuan
03-28-2005, 12:25 AM
I would agree that these cameras compete, and I never said that the 350D was not a good camera. There just wasn't much thought or effort put into making it a great camera like it's more expensive sibling.

But to answer your points:

1. ISO100? Meet ISO200 with 1/8000sec shutter speed.

2. Mirror Lockup..I have no idea of what purpose this serves. My mirror lock is for cleaning. If the purpose is for long exposures then 30 seconds is more than I have ever needed.

3. 14 - 18 frame, frame buffer...you got me on that one, but typcally I get 12-15. About the only time I use this is for goofing around catching lightning strikes or at baseball games and racing events. Haven't missed one yet.

4. 2.5 Ounce weight difference?...time to start working out. I'm an old guy, and have no problem carrying the D70 all day.


1.you got me on the 1/8000sec. This is one thing I will love about the 1DMKII because I see myslef limited many times at 1/4000 and I need the shallow depth of field of f/2.8 and faster, and ISO is maxed at 100...

2. I use it to keep the mirror from causing unwanted vibrations when testing image quality, resolution, lenses, and etc. I might find some other uses in the future. It is kinda neat to have.

3. I now get paid to shoot paintball, so I need the max buffer, not necessarily 5fps, but 3 fps for 25 shots would be nice!

4. I work out 4 days a week at gold's. ;) Once I get some real lenses, like the 70-200f/2.8, weight will not be an issue anymore.

George, I understand your need to defend your camera, after all, it was the camera for 2004. But this is 2005, and it looks to me like the 350D will reign.
Price, MP, Quality,Size, and Weight will make it sell like hotcakes to new DSLR people.

On a side not, I may be the FIRST 350D owner to admit that they have dropped their camera. I was putting on my camera backpack and the zipper was not closed all the way. I heard a crash as I was walking and there was my camera. I felt the ultimate fear, I thought I was out of my investment! I ran to the camera, inspected it, and did not see anything wrong. The wood floor had a black mark from the plastic, but the camera was fine. NO scratches, dents, fractures, or etc.. The hard plastic surprised me.
But this is something that I will not repeat again... :o

D70FAN
03-28-2005, 05:58 AM
1.you got me on the 1/8000sec. This is one thing I will love about the 1DMKII because I see myslef limited many times at 1/4000 and I need the shallow depth of field of f/2.8 and faster, and ISO is maxed at 100...

2. I use it to keep the mirror from causing unwanted vibrations when testing image quality, resolution, lenses, and etc. I might find some other uses in the future. It is kinda neat to have.

3. I now get paid to shoot paintball, so I need the max buffer, not necessarily 5fps, but 3 fps for 25 shots would be nice!

4. I work out 4 days a week at gold's. ;) Once I get some real lenses, like the 70-200f/2.8, weight will not be an issue anymore.

George, I understand your need to defend your camera, after all, it was the camera for 2004. But this is 2005, and it looks to me like the 350D will reign.
Price, MP, Quality,Size, and Weight will make it sell like hotcakes to new DSLR people.

On a side not, I may be the FIRST 350D owner to admit that they have dropped their camera. I was putting on my camera backpack and the zipper was not closed all the way. I heard a crash as I was walking and there was my camera. I felt the ultimate fear, I thought I was out of my investment! I ran to the camera, inspected it, and did not see anything wrong. The wood floor had a black mark from the plastic, but the camera was fine. NO scratches, dents, fractures, or etc.. The hard plastic surprised me.
But this is something that I will not repeat again... :o

Hi Juan, I'm not defending the D70, but pointing out that Canon could have , and should have, done more with the 350D, but couldn't because of the 20D.

As a side note to the 3fps entry. The D70 can continue to shot at 3fps, in medium JPEG, until the memory card is full (or the battery is dead).

It's too bad that camera companies don't offer (SRAM/DRAM) memory expansion cards for the buffer. ;) Hey Canon and Nikon this could be extra revenue.

Glad to hear that your "camera drop test" came out ok. I've dropped mine a few times but nothing serious. Even when I wandering it's usually tucked in the Loewpro TLZ Mini (and that gets banged around regularly).

Thanks for the discussion. :)

DiJ
03-28-2005, 09:55 AM
1/8000sec? Thats not the point Mr Riehm.

The advantage of iso100:

*When you want the slowest shutter speed in situation like at a bright waterfall. Sometimes one ND filter may not be enough with iso200. And too high an f/stop would compromise image sharpness. Iso100 gives you that extra flexibility.

*Simply because iso100 is noticeably cleaner than iso200. Useful for very heavy cropping where you will be viewing the final image at close to its 100% magnification.

That said I still open to suggestions as to why a D70 would have any advantage over a 350d.

TheObiJuan
03-28-2005, 11:58 AM
If you are a fan of wideangle then Nikon is the way to go. They have a nice lineup of high quality WA lenses.

eagle17
03-29-2005, 06:18 AM
I was not aware that the D70 did not have mirror lock-up, I use this for many of my "money" shots. I will have to say that to me this would be the same thing as not having spotmetering.

I agree with george that the 350D should have replaced the 300d at the $799 mark not the $999 mark, and the 20D should be at the $1199 mark and the 1dm2 should be at the $2599-$2999 mark. however I do not see people buying the D2Hs just because it is $800 (or so) less than the 1dm2 usually by the time you start paying that much a few hundred or even close to a thousand does not make you switch brands... (I guess this is the evil capitalistic greed kicking in :cool: ) I for one am happy with my 20D and as far as wide goes I am very happy with the 3 brands that offer wide angles for my canon and two of them start in the 10mm range.

I have the sigma 12-24 and am very happy with it outdoors. Indoors on a film body it is really hard to keep from getting distortion all you need to do is tilt the camera and you will see some nice distortion. of course at 19mm on my 20D it is wonderfull indoors or out...


I guess the problem is that neither of the brands feel that they need to build a pro camera for under $1500. I am sure that as the cost of the ccds start to go down you will see better "prosumer" cameras comming out.

I know lots of people that are thrilled with thier dreb and I am sure there will be a ton of people that will love their drebXT... as for me after having my 20D for 8 months and picking up a 300d I can not go back to the slow mushy speed of it ...

we have been through this time and again and i think it comes down to both the nikon and the canon take damn fine pictures in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing. I would say that the nikon offers some extra features over the 300D but ties with the 350D. the 20D only is marginally better with its full magnesium body

gabester
04-12-2005, 04:04 AM
It seems that no one ever addressed the question that George posed about mirror lockup ("what purpose does this serve?").

The SLR mirror has significant mass, and when the shutter button is depressed, it flaps up. Flapping up makes the camera body/lens go down, since the center of mass (or center of gravity, whatever) of the whole system (camera body/lens/mirror) must remain stationary due to no external forces (all internal forces only). So during the mirror flap the camera moves a significant amount, enough to potentially blur a picture.

Mirror lock up allows a user to flap up the mirror, wait a second or two (this time is adjustable on cameras like the 10D and the dReb with the Wasia hack), then have the shutter curtain activate after the center-of-mass movement has died down. The result is (theoretically) a sharper picture. Most people might not need this, but if you're using long lenses at slow shutter speeds you'll notice the diffference.

DiJ
04-14-2005, 05:37 PM
Dont know about you. I consider having no MLU much more of a limitation than no spot meter. While its sometimes convenient to have spot metering. By experience you a can learn overcome this with careful use of exposure compensation. For example when shooting a dark subject against bright background, I always dial in from 1/3 to 1 ev depending on size of subject and brightness difference of the surrounding areas. No problems with exposure at all.

With no MLU I guess you can only learn to avoid shutter speeds in the 1/2sec - 1/60sec range with anything greater than 50mm. This really limits the DSLRs usefulness for handheld lowlight.