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View Full Version : Digital Rebel XT at Fry's!



kshoari
03-08-2005, 10:03 PM
Today I stopped by our local Fry's. They had the new rebel in the store, and I got to play with it. I have been trying to decide between Nikon D70 and the Rebel XT. After reading the new comparison in http://www.digitalreview.ca/cams/NikonD70versusRebelXT.shtml, and then playing with XT today, I think I am more inclined towards D70, at least from the ergonomics standpoint. The XT looks and feels more professional than the old rebel, but it is way too small for a DSLR. Small size may be good for compact P&S cameras where you can hold the camera with two fingers and look through the LCD, none of which are true for a DSLR. So making XT as small as it is just makes it less comfortable in my hand, and my hand is considered relatively small.

Any comments?...

Rex914
03-08-2005, 10:08 PM
The size/ergonomics are the downside to the XT for some if you've been expecting a weighty, tank-like DSLR, but you get it back in spades in performance, functionality and image quality (there are no "official" reviews yet but quite a few sample images have been posted already). Come on, do you really think Canon's going to botch this one?

Was is just a demo unit or is it really on sale at Fry's now? They've been getting a lot of "new" cameras lately.

I don't want to sound biased, but that's not a really fair comparison (in the review). You can't compare the Canon kit lens to the Nikon one. That's just ridiculous. And what's up with their comment on the Nikon D70 being cheaper than the XT? Wha? The XT body costs $900. The D70 body costs $1000, or $900 if you count the rebate. Either way, that's dead wrong.

kshoari
03-08-2005, 11:13 PM
The size/ergonomics are the downside to the XT for some if you've been expecting a weighty, tank-like DSLR, but you get it back in spades in performance, functionality and image quality (there are no "official" reviews yet but quite a few sample images have been posted already). Come on, do you really think Canon's going to botch this one?

Was is just a demo unit or is it really on sale at Fry's now? They've been getting a lot of "new" cameras lately.

I don't want to sound biased, but that's not a really fair comparison (in the review). You can't compare the Canon kit lens to the Nikon one. That's just ridiculous. And what's up with their comment on the Nikon D70 being cheaper than the XT? Wha? The XT body costs $900. The D70 body costs $1000, or $900 if you count the rebate. Either way, that's dead wrong.

Well...I could not take any pictures as the camera had neither battery nor memory card, and there were no customer service people around. I don't think it was a demo unit though, as they had the price sign. But then maybe that was for pre-order or something.

As for lense comparison, for a person like myself who is on budget and will get the kit anyway, it actually does make a difference. The canon kit lense is $100 and the Nikon kit lense is $300. And with current Nikon rebates, you could get D70 kit for about $900 which would be the same price of XT body only and I don't expect anybody selling XT for lower than the list price for at least a few months. As for performance, functionality, and image quality, I am not really convinced XT would be better than D70. I've seen sample XT pictures too. I should mention that I have no bias at all. In fact, I still own a Yashica film SLR and I love it!

So I would really like to know what makes you think XT would have better performance than D70. The only advantages I see in Rebel, besides MP, is MLU, ISO 100, and possibly battery grip. But then you have 1/500 flash sync, 1/8000 shutter speed, and possibly better metering and exposure compensation. I am not sure about the relative performance of the image processors in the two cameras though.

Putting any biases aside, how do you see things differently?

Rex914
03-08-2005, 11:32 PM
Hmm? Where can you get the Kit D70 for $900? I go by fair official list prices, and that means $1300-$200 = $1100. Online, maybe that could be $100 cheaper, but that's the most I can imagine.

I still wouldn't get the kit lens with the XT (or the D70 for that matter). I would save the $100 and spend $200-$300 on a decent third party lens. Any decent 3rd party lens is better than the kit lens. George would be more than happy to assist you in this area regardless of the camera you get.

XT - $900 + $200-$300 = $1100-$1200
D70 - $1100

So you might be paying a tad bit more upfront for an XT, but remember that this is a double whammy. Pricewise, we are comparing a product on a rebate to a brand new product not yet on the market. The the XT is a real steal already.

But you wanted direct comparisons between the two. Think of it this way. Take all the advantages that the 20D has over the D70 and subtract what the XT lacks, which isn't too much (look at earlier threads for this).

As for performance, the 20D has been proven to be a faster camera than the D70. I don't know how much faster, but it is faster. By that logic, the XT which also uses DIGIC II, should also be a faster performer.

But it's your choice in the end. I'm not going to push for Canon any further than this. That'd make me no better than a pushy Nikonian. You obviously have some expertise in this area, so I'm certain that you'll come to the right decision in the end.

If the XT weren't such a big deal, people wouldn't be so eager to adopt it before seeing any reviews. They dive for it not because it's an 8MP DSLR, but because it's a "20D lite." Canon has once again blown past our expectations (people were merely expecting a "full 10D" clone rather than a mini 20D) and has delivered a very compelling product that will keep its competitors on their toes for years to come. It's this kind of product that drives prices down. I'm confident that Canon will unveil the first "pro" DSLR for under $2000 within the next few years. And I'm also fairly sure that Canon will be the first to get a DSLR for $500 in 2006.

When you buy whatever you will buy, you might want to consider Amazon.com which is running a $100 GC when you spend $1000 there. You can probably use that extra $100 to help pay for an extra lens or something in the future.

kshoari
03-09-2005, 12:16 AM
Thanks a lot for your input... But I am sorry to say that your input did not help me :) Just kidding... what I mean is that while I more or less did know about the points you have mentioned, your input just makes it harder for me to decide :confused:

As for D70 kit price, B&H and adorama both have it for $1179 before $200 rebate. As for Amazon $100 GC, I'd seen it. But it is essentially useless for two reasons, IMHO. One is that you get charged for Tax which in the $1000 price range wipes out the GC. Moreover, it does not even apply if Amazon does not have an item in stock and you buy through them but from their partners, which is the case, say for D70.

Norm in Fujino
03-09-2005, 12:38 AM
Hmm? Where can you get the Kit D70 for $900? I go by fair official list prices, and that means $1300-$200 = $1100. Online, maybe that could be $100 cheaper, but that's the most I can imagine.


Well, it's selling here in Japan for Yen 95,980, which is about $910 at current rates of exchange. :D
Actually, the body is selling for only $661, which is a pretty decent price.
(But then, I doubt anyone's gonna come to Japan just to pick one up).

http://www.kakaku.com/prdsearch/detail.asp?PrdKey=00501610562
http://www.kakaku.com/prdsearch/detail.asp?PrdKey=00501610453

I'm personally happy to hear that the XT is small. I've even begun looking at the Pentax ist because of the size.
Any any rate, I'm glad I don't work for any of the design/engineering teams at the major DSLR manufacturers here. I'll bet nobody's getting any sleep as they frantically try and get out new 8MP cameras.

Rex914
03-09-2005, 05:59 PM
As for Amazon $100 GC, I'd seen it. But it is essentially useless for two reasons, IMHO. One is that you get charged for Tax which in the $1000 price range wipes out the GC.

You do pay tax? They only collect tax in WA unless you are unfortunate enough to reside there.

D70FAN
03-09-2005, 09:44 PM
Hmm? Where can you get the Kit D70 for $900? I go by fair official list prices, and that means $1300-$200 = $1100. Online, maybe that could be $100 cheaper, but that's the most I can imagine.

I still wouldn't get the kit lens with the XT (or the D70 for that matter). I would save the $100 and spend $200-$300 on a decent third party lens. Any decent 3rd party lens is better than the kit lens. George would be more than happy to assist you in this area regardless of the camera you get.

XT - $900 + $200-$300 = $1100-$1200
D70 - $1100

So you might be paying a tad bit more upfront for an XT, but remember that this is a double whammy. Pricewise, we are comparing a product on a rebate to a brand new product not yet on the market. The the XT is a real steal already.

But you wanted direct comparisons between the two. Think of it this way. Take all the advantages that the 20D has over the D70 and subtract what the XT lacks, which isn't too much (look at earlier threads for this).

As for performance, the 20D has been proven to be a faster camera than the D70. I don't know how much faster, but it is faster. By that logic, the XT which also uses DIGIC II, should also be a faster performer.

But it's your choice in the end. I'm not going to push for Canon any further than this. That'd make me no better than a pushy Nikonian. You obviously have some expertise in this area, so I'm certain that you'll come to the right decision in the end.

If the XT weren't such a big deal, people wouldn't be so eager to adopt it before seeing any reviews. They dive for it not because it's an 8MP DSLR, but because it's a "20D lite." Canon has once again blown past our expectations (people were merely expecting a "full 10D" clone rather than a mini 20D) and has delivered a very compelling product that will keep its competitors on their toes for years to come. It's this kind of product that drives prices down. I'm confident that Canon will unveil the first "pro" DSLR for under $2000 within the next few years. And I'm also fairly sure that Canon will be the first to get a DSLR for $500 in 2006.

When you buy whatever you will buy, you might want to consider Amazon.com which is running a $100 GC when you spend $1000 there. You can probably use that extra $100 to help pay for an extra lens or something in the future.

Ya know... It probably doesn't matter which camera you buy in the end. But Canon cut a few corners to get the XT into the same price catagory as the D70, nothing critical. The Digic II is what should have been in the 300D. At least Nikon went with their good processor in the D70 from the beginning.

One thing to keep in mind is that Canon had to bring out a new camera just to be "as good" as the D70. And the D70 can even compete, performance wise, with the 20D.

With rumors of the Nikon D50 floating around I wouldn't be too sure about the first dSLR to $500 race. I think Nikon is not throwing in the towel on this competition, and we all stand to benefit.

Rex914
03-09-2005, 10:37 PM
I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the D50 too (but I am even more eager to see a "D200"), but I've heard too many conflicting accounts about it. :(

Some say it's a stripped down D70, but how much can you strip before it's an original Rebel? Others claim it's a 20D'ish camera. Whatever it is, it's gotta find a concrete place in the market to succeed. Whoever makes it first, the $500 DSLR isn't too far off for us is it?

kshoari
03-10-2005, 12:22 PM
Ok... I finally got the D70. I thought I'd read enough and if I were to wait more and keep reading comments from others, I could never decide and could never start the actual digital shooting... Also I thought D70 has already received many good reviews and should be more than enough for me for at least a few years and most important of all fits in my tight budget. In fact I thouht any new D70 replacement would most probably be outside my budget limit at least for a few months after its arrival. My allowance was $1200 maximum and with the following package, I think I managed to stay within limits and get all I needed for now:

1- Nikon D70 + 18-70 Kit from buydig.com: $1082 (prior to $200 rebate)
2- Nikon SB-600 Flash from buydig.com: $186
3- Total Shipping charge for 3-5 bday from buydig.com: $21.92
4- Nikon Ml-L3 Wireless Remote from B&H: $16.95
5- Hoya Haze UV(0) Multi-Coated 67mm Filter from B&H: $29.95
6- Total B&H Shipping: $4.95
7- SanDisk Ultra II 256MB CF from newegg.com plus shipping: $26.95
8- MediaGear 8-in-4 USB 2.0 Card Reader from Fry's: $14

Total Cost: $1382.75 - $200 MIR = $1182.75

I have not received any of these yet (except for the card reader obviously :) ). I may post my experience with all these on-line retailers later. Other things I am thinking of getting in the near future are an extra bettery plus a case/bag, and then sometime later (when the new budget is approved ;) ) a telephoto lense. Any comments on these would be appreciated.

D70FAN
03-11-2005, 05:30 AM
Ok... I finally got the D70. I thought I'd read enough and if I were to wait more and keep reading comments from others, I could never decide and could never start the actual digital shooting... Also I thought D70 has already received many good reviews and should be more than enough for me for at least a few years and most important of all fits in my tight budget. In fact I thouht any new D70 replacement would most probably be outside my budget limit at least for a few months after its arrival. My allowance was $1200 maximum and with the following package, I think I managed to stay within limits and get all I needed for now:

1- Nikon D70 + 18-70 Kit from buydig.com: $1082 (prior to $200 rebate)
2- Nikon SB-600 Flash from buydig.com: $186
3- Total Shipping charge for 3-5 bday from buydig.com: $21.92
4- Nikon Ml-L3 Wireless Remote from B&H: $16.95
5- Hoya Haze UV(0) Multi-Coated 67mm Filter from B&H: $29.95
6- Total B&H Shipping: $4.95
7- SanDisk Ultra II 256MB CF from newegg.com plus shipping: $26.95
8- MediaGear 8-in-4 USB 2.0 Card Reader from Fry's: $14

Total Cost: $1382.75 - $200 MIR = $1182.75

I have not received any of these yet (except for the card reader obviously :) ). I may post my experience with all these on-line retailers later. Other things I am thinking of getting in the near future are an extra bettery plus a case/bag, and then sometime later (when the new budget is approved ;) ) a telephoto lense. Any comments on these would be appreciated.

I recommend that you get the case when you get the camera.

The best day-to-day case I have found is the Loewpro TLZ Mini. You shoud be able to fit the D70 with 18-70 kit lens (in my case the 18-125 Sigma), 2 spare batteries (1 EN-EL3 + filled 3 CR2 adapter), ML-L3 remote, 4-6 memory cards, and the video cable. For a reasonably priced long lens you might want to look at the Sigma 70-300 APO for $199. And for a good all around fixed focus lens the Nikkor 50mm F1.8 for around $110.

Have fun. :D

kshoari
03-11-2005, 07:55 AM
I recommend that you get the case when you get the camera.

The best day-to-day case I have found is the Loewpro TLZ Mini. You shoud be able to fit the D70 with 18-70 kit lens (in my case the 18-125 Sigma), 2 spare batteries (1 EN-EL3 + filled 3 CR2 adapter), ML-L3 remote, 4-6 memory cards, and the video cable. For a reasonably priced long lens you might want to look at the Sigma 70-300 APO for $199. And for a good all around fixed focus lens the Nikkor 50mm F1.8 for around $110.

Have fun. :D

Thanks a lot George for all your recommendations. A couple of questions though...

First on the bag... Do you know which bag would be the most compact bag that could comfotably fit D70, SB-600, and say Sigma 70-300 APO and other small accessories? I checked (http://www.asvd07.dsl.pipex.com/d70bags.htm) and all such bags seem too large to me. I wonder if it is possible to have a relatively compact bag and still avoid having two separate day-to-day and gadget bags. It would also help if the bag does not scream that there is a camera inside :) Anyway, I am waiting to receive the camera and I'll then take it to a camera store and decide on the bag. In the meantime, I would greatly appreciate any advice/suggestions you may have.

As for the lense... I've indeed decided on Sigma 70-300 APO based on the reviews I've seen and the valuable comments I received on D70 forum right here. I just need to wait a bit on that as my budget allowance for now is over. It would be hard to convince my wife at this point :(

But about the Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D lense...I know that all older film SLR's (including my own Yashica) used to come standard with fixed focus 50mm lenses. But I wonder in what situations would I use it instead of my 18-70 kit lense? OK.. It may at times produce sharper and brighter pictures. But what other advantages would I have if I have a fixed focus 50mm lense around?

Thanks again...

D70FAN
03-11-2005, 10:47 AM
Thanks a lot George for all your recommendations. A couple of questions though...

First on the bag... Do you know which bag would be the most compact bag that could comfotably fit D70, SB-600, and say Sigma 70-300 APO and other small accessories? I checked (http://www.asvd07.dsl.pipex.com/d70bags.htm) and all such bags seem too large to me. I wonder if it is possible to have a relatively compact bag and still avoid having two separate day-to-day and gadget bags. It would also help if the bag does not scream that there is a camera inside :) Anyway, I am waiting to receive the camera and I'll then take it to a camera store and decide on the bag. In the meantime, I would greatly appreciate any advice/suggestions you may have.

As for the lense... I've indeed decided on Sigma 70-300 APO based on the reviews I've seen and the valuable comments I received on D70 forum right here. I just need to wait a bit on that as my budget allowance for now is over. It would be hard to convince my wife at this point :(

But about the Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D lense...I know that all older film SLR's (including my own Yashica) used to come standard with fixed focus 50mm lenses. But I wonder in what situations would I use it instead of my 18-70 kit lense? OK.. It may at times produce sharper and brighter pictures. But what other advantages would I have if I have a fixed focus 50mm lense around?

Thanks again...

I typically carry the extra accessories in a standard, non-camera type, backpack. The Lewpro TLZ Mini says SLR, but most people don't even know dSLR's exist, so it really doesn't generate any more interest than a film SLR, which is to say almost none. There is a also a TLZ Mini that can accomodate a longer zoom.

The primary reason that I bought the Sigma 18-125 DC is to have a very wide range lens in a small package. I rarely use the 70-300 except for specific trips where I know that I will need the extra range, like nature shots. I am hoping that the new 18-200's coming from Sigma and Tamron will be good enough to make the 70-300 irrelevant, although I realize that this is probably wishful thinking.

My QAF6600 flash (I'm waiting tor the SB800 to arrive) is usually in the backpack as I find that in day-to-day shooting I don't need an external flash. If I do need it I just leave it on the camera, or carry it in a belt pack.

The 50mm f1.8 is really handy in low light situations where you are already at ISO 1600 and still need a stop or two under the f3.5 of the 18-70 (or again in my case the 18-125). Also for portraiture and center focused landscapes you can get very shallow depth of field to highlight the main subject and softly blurr the immediate background (this is the effect known as Bokeh). I plan to replace the 50mm with a Tamron 28-75 f2.8, as soon as finances allow. ;)