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View Full Version : 300D vs 20D.. worth the extra $$$



NewTekBuzz
02-15-2005, 03:04 AM
Is the 20D really worth the extra 400-500 bucks? I am looking at getting the 300D/Digital rebel within the next week or two.. cant help but wonder if I should make the jump to the 20D. Has anyone made the upgrade from a 300D? My current cam is a point and shoot so I know I will be getting a lot better cam then what I have now... and I do own a Canon Rebel SLR..
anyways.

I did a quick look through for something on this, but didnt find much. So forgive me if i've overlooked a existing thread. :)

Tim

jamison55
02-15-2005, 06:21 AM
Hey Tim,

It all depends on what you intend on using the camera for. The 20D beats the DReb in the following areas:

Burst mode - 23 large jpegs captured in a burst vs 5
Low light performance - the best ISO 1600 images of any camera in it's class (this was my main reason for upgrading)
More, and more logically arranged, focus points
Higher flash voltage tolerances (along with a PC connection)
ETTL- II for improved flash metering (I'll let you know about this one after my first 20D wedding this weekend)

Having said all of that, If I wasn't shooting weddings I would have been perfectly happy with my DReb (in fact I shoot with both now). It is a fantastic camera that produces amazing images. You really have to think about what the extra $500 could buy you in accessories. For instance, you could buy a Sunpak 383 (external flash) and a Tamron 28-75 f2.8 (a great piece of glass) with the $500 you save, and produce better images than you would with the 20D + kit lens + onboard flash...

--JAMIE

PS - If you shop carefully enough, you should be able to find a DReb for around $700 - $800 giving you some extra dough for additional accessories (like the Canon 135 f2.8 SF - $275)

NewTekBuzz
02-15-2005, 04:47 PM
Hmmm what to do.

Thanks for the input. Low light performance sounds good and the burst rate also. Im gonna put a little more thought intp it.

Halvard
02-16-2005, 02:11 AM
Greetings. I belive that jamison55 gave a very good view of the differences between the rebel and d20, so i have nothing to add to it. I too are in the process of getting into the DSLR world, sold my Canon G6 last week (fantastic camera, but the great quality of the pics only left my lusting for flexibility (tele))

I will go for the rebel cause of the price difference and my needs, i mostly takes pics outside and are lusting after a Sigma 50-500. The price difference of these two is almost the cost of a Sigma 50-500 here in Norway! The d20 is a *fantastic* camera, but for my needs a Rebel will be fine. If you have the $$$ and are doing low light photography the D20 will be the best choice.

To further complicate the picture there are strong *rumors* that Canon will come with a new DSLR these days (maybe to compete with the D70) and that the 300D will stay in the line up but get a hefty price cut, as the entry model. So i will wait some more days before i go for a black rebel with a hand-grip ;)

Rex914
02-16-2005, 06:12 PM
The new Digital Rebel is a lot more compelling camera. It's kinda hard to justify getting a 20D unless you need the specific exclusives it offers.

http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4829

Halvard
02-16-2005, 11:59 PM
You are quite right Rex914. Well, seems like i have to wait some more, will buy this one. Only question now is how long it takes before it reaches the shops, but i`ll guess we will know that soon enough.

gary_hendricks
02-17-2005, 12:24 AM
Hey Tim,

It all depends on what you intend on using the camera for. The 20D beats the DReb in the following areas:

Burst mode - 23 large jpegs captured in a burst vs 5
Low light performance - the best ISO 1600 images of any camera in it's class (this was my main reason for upgrading)
More, and more logically arranged, focus points
Higher flash voltage tolerances (along with a PC connection)
ETTL- II for improved flash metering (I'll let you know about this one after my first 20D wedding this weekend)

Having said all of that, If I wasn't shooting weddings I would have been perfectly happy with my DReb (in fact I shoot with both now). It is a fantastic camera that produces amazing images. You really have to think about what the extra $500 could buy you in accessories. For instance, you could buy a Sunpak 383 (external flash) and a Tamron 28-75 f2.8 (a great piece of glass) with the $500 you save, and produce better images than you would with the 20D + kit lens + onboard flash...

--JAMIE

PS - If you shop carefully enough, you should be able to find a DReb for around $700 - $800 giving you some extra dough for additional accessories (like the Canon 135 f2.8 SF - $275)


Absolutely. I love the low light performance of the 20D - much better thna the Nikon D70 in fact.

Rex914
02-17-2005, 02:35 PM
You are quite right Rex914. Well, seems like i have to wait some more, will buy this one. Only question now is how long it takes before it reaches the shops, but i`ll guess we will know that soon enough.

Early March. Mid March at worst. Of course, that assumes that you can get one. I suspect that this will be selling out quick. Even the 20D has sold out temporarily at Amazon.com so I don't even want to guess what'll happen here.

eos jessica
02-19-2005, 11:20 AM
I shot the 300D for a little more than year and started shopping and narrowed it down to a 20D ($1338 delivered from Buydig.com) or a 1D Mark II for approx $3800. Got the 20D and shot my first basketball game last night and was impressed and disappointed at the same time. I got the error 99 lock up in the first quarter but when I changed from my highspeed CF card to a normal card, the error 99 went away. Go figure. I use a 550ex with an ext battery and I got severe overexposure on about half of my shots. I will try toning down the flash exposure (page 96 in the manual) to see if that helps.
Does anyone know if the crystal clear action shots you see on www.maxpreps.com are possible with the 20D? Compare to my shots at www.varsityphotos.net
I'm using a Canon 70-200, 2.8L lens at 1600.
Thanks for any input.
EOS Jess

jamison55
02-20-2005, 05:32 AM
I think the 20D will work out great for you. Not knowing your shot settings, I'm not sure what to tell you about improving the shots (now your prices - that's another thing all together, you can't possibly make a living...).

Two things I can think of off the top of my head are: AI Servo mode so that the AF will track the subject, and the fastest shutter speed you can get away with. What mode do you shoot in? I definitely would not shoot in AV or TV, but would choose M giving me control of the output and more predictable flash exposure. Based on a quick look at the Maxpreps gallery, I'd guess that he/she used a faster shutter speed then you (based the amount of ambient light in both of your galleries). Do you use a monopod? Anything that helps steady the camera is a great asset. You may also want to consider a more powerful flash, such as one of the beasty Metz "potato masher" units (http://www.adorama.com/MZ60CT1.html). Your glass and body are certainly capable enough...and based on your work so do you!

--JAMIE

PS - Here's a guy who uses a 20D for sports photography and nicely includes all of his exposure settings... http://www.pbase.com/demrich/root

gary_hendricks
02-20-2005, 07:29 AM
The low light performance and better burst mode will swing me towards the 20D.

NewTekBuzz
02-21-2005, 09:44 AM
Well..... I went to Best Buy over the weekend. I looked at the Rebel & the 20D (Hands on :) ) had a chance to snap a few pics with both. I really like the feel of the 20D over the Rebel, it just has a more of a solid feel. I dont plan on doin any buying until end of march so I still have some time to read some MORE reviews. I will also keep my eyes open for the Rebel XT when that hits the stores. I need to do some reading on the glass end of things, There are so many to choose from. I will be sticking with Canon lens (just on of those things i guess) I have a 75-300 lens that I use on my 35mm Rebel, BB had one there that they let me put on the 20D and look around.. that was cool, its just to bad that they prices are high. 20D = $1,599.00 w/kit lens. The fact that I can go there and check things out is great.. BUT being able to order off line and save lots of $$$ and save on the 6% tax is even better. Thanks for all the replys..

Tim

jamison55
02-21-2005, 12:49 PM
Just shot my first wedding with the new 20D yesterday, and I have to say it is worth every penny of the $600 - $700 more than the DReb it cost. The autofocus was fast and accurate, the controls were easy to switch on the fly, and the ISO 1600 performance was amazing.

NewTekBuzz
02-21-2005, 06:37 PM
you just had to go and say that!!!! LOL :D

speaklightly
02-21-2005, 08:22 PM
Well as a Canon EOS 20D owner who takes many digital photos, I flet very confident in my equipment. Today I had the chance to use a Pentax 1stDS for the day and I was amazed at the output from the Pentax 1stDS!

The camera felt great in hand, and had a very workable menu with everything right up front. I finished taking photos at 5:30pm and I was very, very impressed.

You can take a look at my results at:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/408017

Speaklightly

D70FAN
02-21-2005, 09:49 PM
Well as a Canon EOS 20D owner who takes many digital photos, I flet very confident in my equipment. Today I had the chance to use a Pentax 1stDS for the day and I was amazed at the output from the Pentax 1stDS!

The camera felt great in hand, and had a very workable menu with everything right up front. I finished taking photos at 5:30pm and I was very, very impressed.

You can take a look at my results at:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/408017

Speaklightly

The content is nice. Which lens were you using with the *ist DS?

jamison55
02-22-2005, 03:22 AM
Well as a Canon EOS 20D owner who takes many digital photos, I flet very confident in my equipment. Today I had the chance to use a Pentax 1stDS for the day and I was amazed at the output from the Pentax 1stDS!

The camera felt great in hand, and had a very workable menu with everything right up front. I finished taking photos at 5:30pm and I was very, very impressed.

You can take a look at my results at:

www.digicamlady.smugmug.com/gallery/408017

Speaklightly

Great pics, and by all accounts a nice camera. My only complaint (about the camera - not the photographer ;) ) is the noise in the last ISO 1600 shot. Seems more on par with my DReb than my 20D...

NewTekBuzz
02-22-2005, 04:43 AM
My Dad just got his pantex DS yesterday lol. he has been sending me all kinds of pics!! He also really likes it so far. Speaklightly... If you had it to do over... waht would you do?? Still go for the 20D?
Great pics BTW!!!

some guy
02-22-2005, 06:33 AM
It's often not so much the camera itself, but more on the wielder. the 350D/Rebel XT is about to come out and it is 90% a 20D (in features and it's smaller and lighter) but 60% the price.

jamison55
02-22-2005, 06:40 AM
Just shot my first wedding with the new 20D yesterday, and I have to say it is worth every penny of the $600 - $700 more than the DReb it cost. The autofocus was fast and accurate, the controls were easy to switch on the fly, and the ISO 1600 performance was amazing.

Forgot to mention the battery life of this thing is amazing. I shot all day (11:00 - 7:00) on a single battery charge!

speaklightly
02-22-2005, 08:52 AM
I got great looking 6mp output from the Pentax 1stDS yesterday. It was a lot of fun. However, my EOS 20D has better ISO 1600 performance. The Pentax 1stDS really offers a lot for the money, but I will keep my 20D.

I was using the Pentax kit lens on the Pentax 1stDS. It is 18mm to 55mm. I am also looking forward to seeing the output from the new Sigma 18mm-200mm and Tamron's 18mm to 200mm.

BTW, Jamison, the ISO is really easy to get to and change on the fly on the Pentax 1stDS. I found it very comparable to the 20D.

Speaklightly

jamison55
02-22-2005, 10:56 AM
I got great looking 6mp output from the Pentax 1stDS yesterday. It was a lot of fun. However, my EOS 20D has better ISO 1600 performance. The Pentax 1stDS really offers a lot for the money, but I will keep my 20D.

I was using the Pentax kit lens on the Pentax 1stDS. It is 18mm to 55mm. I am also looking forward to seeing the output from the new Sigma 18mm-200mm and Tamron's 18mm to 200mm.

BTW, Jamison, the ISO is really easy to get to and change on the fly on the Pentax 1stDS. I found it very comparable to the 20D.

Speaklightly

That's great to know. During a wedding, this is the setting I access the most - switching between flash and available light shots - so the ability to change it quickly is important for folks who are likely to be in the same situation. I'll add it to my "can recommend" list for friends that are looking to venture in to the DSLR world. As for me I am still in awe of my 20D...

Rex914
02-23-2005, 11:42 PM
Somebody on DPreview got their hands on a 350D (thanks to a Canon engineer who happened to be demoing it at a camera store) and wrote a pretty detailed "hands on impressions" account of the 350D. The negatives are pointed towards the body (as expected), but thankfully, it lives up to its reputation in everything else, especially image quality which rivals, if not equals, that of the 20D.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=12378816

NewTekBuzz
02-24-2005, 02:55 AM
Its gonna be the 20D for me, I have made up my mind. Thanks to you guys & family. Now I have to decide if I want the kit camera or go with just the body.

I have 2 lenes that are about 10 years old and are in great shape.. the kit lens that cam with me EOS rebel II S (35-80) & a ultrasonic 75-300, I have seen this same lens still for sale at BB 75-300 but its an ultrasonic III. I am looking at one new EF-S lens as an add on to the 2 that I have. I have read just about every lens post on this site and I just cant pick one (lack of exp.)
not sure if I should just use the lenes I have now and maybe get other items for camera...???!!!??


Any MORE help you could give would be great, I dont mind spending a little extra on a nice lens.


T.I.A.


Tim

speaklightly
02-24-2005, 04:57 AM
Tim-

The kit lens for the 20D is an 18mm-55mm that is OK but nothing to whistle about, in my opinion. I tried a Sigma 18mm-125mm on my 20D but it was way too soft in the focus department, especially at the edges. So I returned it to B & H.

If, it were me, I would order the body and try the two lenses you already have (if they are compatible with the 20D) and then go from there. Tamron is just about to come out with an 18mm-200mm lens, which is a nice range. It will be very interesting to see what kind of reviews it receives.

Speaklightly

jamison55
02-24-2005, 06:15 AM
Its gonna be the 20D for me, I have made up my mind. Thanks to you guys & family. Now I have to decide if I want the kit camera or go with just the body.

I have 2 lenes that are about 10 years old and are in great shape.. the kit lens that cam with me EOS rebel II S (35-80) & a ultrasonic 75-300, I have seen this same lens still for sale at BB 75-300 but its an ultrasonic III. I am looking at one new EF-S lens as an add on to the 2 that I have. I have read just about every lens post on this site and I just cant pick one (lack of exp.)
not sure if I should just use the lenes I have now and maybe get other items for camera...???!!!??


Any MORE help you could give would be great, I dont mind spending a little extra on a nice lens.


T.I.A.


Tim

The kit lens is worth every penny of the $100 extra you will pay for it. It is reasonably sharp at f8 or higher, and has a nice Canon color cast (vs Sigma, which I find to be a little warm). Your existing lenses are going to be seriously hampered on the wide end by the 1.6 crop factor (i.e. your 35-80 becomes a 56-128mm), so the kit lens will give you a true wide angle.

After that, it all depends upon how much extra $$$ you have to invest. The Canon 50 1.8 mkII is a steal at about $80. It is tack sharp, has a nice Canon color cast, and great bokeh. If you are willing to spend a little more and would like a zoom, skip the Canon 50, and buy a Tamron 28-75 f2.8 XR Di. At around $375 (before the $40 rebate), it may seem a bit steep, but the image quality is not too far off of the Canon 24-70 f2.8L ($1200). The Tamron is mounted almost full time on my 20D, consistently producing sharp, contrasty images.

As far as extra accessories, just make sure you have enough memory. I'd recommend at least a 512mb card. If you plan on shooting raw, buy at least a 1 gigger. You'll probably want a nice bag to carry that beautiful camera around in. I got a lot of good use out of this one: https://www.adorama.com/CAGBK.html (the warranty and batteries don't apply, but the filter fits the kit lens). I'd normally recommend an extra battery, but after shooting an entire 11:00 - 8:00 wedding on one charge, I'm not sure you'll need one!

Oh yeah, and be sure you have a big hard drive to hold all of the beautiful pictures you'll be creating!

jamison55
02-24-2005, 01:53 PM
Just found this today...someone pushed the DReb to ISO 6400 using PS to see what the noise would look like, then tried the same with the 20D. Interesting for those who are comparing... http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/187977

NewTekBuzz
02-24-2005, 03:15 PM
Jamison55, Thank you for your reply. I have about $2500 to play with.. I will give that to you so you can shop for me :) I agree on the lenes that I have. I was looking at maybe a 17-40L hear alot of talk about that. I do want a zoom style lens not a prime.. is that right? primes are not zooms :confused:

I think I might stick with canon lens too...

thanks again everyone!!

TheObiJuan
02-24-2005, 03:40 PM
zooms are varying focal length lenses like the 17-40l
primes are fixed focal length lenses like the 300 2.8

what type of photography do you do, or do you want to do?
this will determine what type of lenses you require.
i would also suggest spending some of that money on a decent tripod.

Rex914
02-24-2005, 03:47 PM
Jamison55, Thank you for your reply. I have about $2500 to play with.. I will give that to you so you can shop for me :) I agree on the lenes that I have. I was looking at maybe a 17-40L hear alot of talk about that. I do want a zoom style lens not a prime.. is that right? primes are not zooms :confused:

I think I might stick with canon lens too...

thanks again everyone!!

The 17-40L is a good wide angle lens. With $2500, you can get the 20D, that, and an extra prime and still have a good amount of money left for any accessories.

I urge you to go to a camera store and try the lenses out before you make a final decision. I had a first hand encounter with a 24-70L today when I saw somebody snapping outdoor portraits with a Mark II. I will say it's quite a large lens. Just a little heads up in case you are looking at any L lenses. The 17-40 is relatively "compact" but it's still by no means "small."

NewTekBuzz
02-25-2005, 02:24 PM
oK... Gonna try and wrap this thread up..

I will be doing a lot of indoor & low light shooting without a flash.. (or standard flash), but will also like to take sun set pics & shots on the water/boat. I really like my Canon 75-300 lens for pulling in shots from a far!! so far I think ill need a lower range lens 17-50 ish.. and see a lot of "IS" lenes but not a lot of talk about them?? any ideas there.

Tim

ktixx
02-25-2005, 02:31 PM
Just one little note, after reading a few reviews on each camera, the 350D (Rebel XT) has an apparent shutter life of 50,000 cycles, whereas the 20D shutter life is 100,000 cycles. This may make your decision a bit easier.

20D Vs. D Rebel XT: http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/eos_digital_rebel_xt_vs_20d.html
Ken