HELP ME buy a camera! ahhhh!

[Mama Sundrop]

:D:p:rolleyes:;):)

Budget
under $400 ideally, but can go up to $5/600 to get all the features I want

Size
I prefer a small camera. I do not want anything very big.

Features
How many megapixels will suffice for you?
5 ideally, but would settle for 4

* What optical zoom will you need?
5x or higher, Ultrazoom = 10x-12x would be great

* How important is “image quality” to you? (Rate using a scale of 1-10) 7?
mostly I will just be printing 4x6 or 5x7 for photo albums, occasionally though I will print an 8x10. probably nothing bigger than that ever.

Do you care for manual controls?
not so much. i prefer automatic, quick response cameras.
I do switch to video sometimes though.

General Usage

* What will you generally use the camera for?
photographing my child indoors and out. need to able to get the shot quickly and many times in low light situations. would also like something that allows video (but video features not as important as camera features.)

* Will you be making big prints of your photos or not?
an occasional 8x10 but most likely not anything bigger

Will you be shooting a lot of indoor photos or low light photos?
yes, definitely

Will you be shooting sports and/or action photos?
action of a toddler

Miscellaneous

Are there particular brands you like or hate?
nope.

Are there particular models you already have in mind?
nope

(If applicable) Do you need any of the following special features? (Wide Angle, Image Stabilization, Weatherproof, Hotshoe, Rotating LCD)

The features I need, in order of importance are as follows.
1) optical image stabalization
2) autofocus illuminator
3) highest optical zoom possible for budget
4) quick shutter release/ rapid shot
5) 5 megapixels
6) close up feature
7) long battery life
8) self timer
9) durable/ weatherproof

[David Metsky]

The features I need, in order of importance are as follows.
1) optical image stabalization Can't really buy a camera without this
2) autofocus illuminator Also hard to find one without
3) highest optical zoom possible for budget That's not a requirement :) What kind of shooting do you really want to do?
4) quick shutter release/ rapid shot This will be your big sticking point
5) 5 megapixels No new camera sold today has less than 6 MP, maybe 8 MP
6) close up feature This is called macro mode, and pretty much all cameras have this, although some are better than others
7) long battery life More on this later
8) self timer All cameras will have this
9) durable/ weatherproof Not really an option when looking for best image quality


Small camera with a lot of zoom, you might want to look at the Panasonic TZ1 or TZ3. It's a Point and shoot with a very useful zoom, good movie mode, and quality images. It's problem will be in low light and a weak flash.

If low light is really an important issue for you, the Fuji F70 would be the place to start. The Sony H10 would be another option.

All of these have proprietary batteries which are a little expensive if you want to buy a backup. That will ensure battery life but you'll have to charge them up from time to time. The Fuji may have poorer battery life vs the others.

When people talk about quick shooting they generally mean one of two things: quick to focus and fire; or burst mode where you shoot lots of shots in a row of quick action. What are you interested in? None of these are going to match a DSLR for shutter lag, in low light they will perform somewhat poorly.

[James DeRuvo DHQ]

I agree. If you can afford it, the TZ3 is incredible. But based on your replies, it may also be overkill. You may want to look into the Canon G9 or even the SD990IS.

[speaklightly]

Mama-

You realize of course with your projected budget of up to $500 to $600 that you have stepped into entry level DSLR territory.

A camera like the Nikon D-40 or D-3000, even a Canon XS or the Pentax K-2000 could reliably capture the king of photos that you seem to be looking for and give you far better image quality.

We are speaking of physically larger cameras, so that might rule them out. However, in terms of image quality and photo flexibility an entry level DSLR could offer a huge step up in image quality and much, much better, indoor photos which seem to be a real priority for you.

Have a great day.

Sarah Joyce

[DoctorJ]

You could contact B&H or Adorama and speak with their sale staff. Plus they can guide you and work with your price range telling you what you CAN and CAN'T get for the price you want.

[speaklightly]

Unfortunately, Dr. J-

I believe that there is a potential trap in executing your suggestion. Now, I like and use both B&H and Adorama myself, but for a commissioned sales person, I am afraid that the conversation might become driven by the commission received.

There is also a very educational process that takes place when a person does research on the camera that they hope to purchase. I don't think that issue should be overlooked.

Have a great day.

Sarah Joyce

[David Metsky]

A DSLR would be nice, but she said
I prefer a small camera. I do not want anything very big.

I think we should concentrate on compact ultrazooms for now.

[Mama Sundrop]

I like the sound of the compact ultrazoom. I need something I can have in my pocket most of the time. Smaller is better, I just don't want to sacrifice too much just for a smaller sized camera.

Any suggestions on compact ultrazooms with great image quality?

Also, low light situations would probably be a good part of the photos I am taking. So that is really important to me. Am I ever going to find a camera that does well in low light?

And when I say quick shutter I mean quick to focus and shoot.

[speaklightly]

Mama-

As David so kindly reminded me, you really want a physically small camera. So that brings us right back to the Sony H-20 (about $240.00 on the internet) that David initially suggested.

The Sony H-20 has the best built-in flash unit in the compact field. It Flash Range extends out to 20 feet, something few other compact cameras can claim. It also has excellent image quality.

I have attached a photo sample from the H-20 which I own and use regularly.

Sarah Joyce

[KCook]

With so many requirements I think you are going to need at least a couple different cameras, maybe three.

Kelly Cook

[Mama Sundrop]

After reading all of your suggestions I have fallen in love with two of them.
The Fuji F70 and the Panasonic TZ3.

The comment about the TZ3 being overkill gave me the impression that it was a more advanced camera than the F70. Is this correct?

I like the Fuji F70 because of its small size and overall look. 10xzoom sounds perfect! I like how the flash feature doesn't black out the background- And without the flash it has a great ability to take demanding shots in challenging conditions like low light. I like the different mode settings and sounds like it has a very good image stabilization.


I like the TZ3 mostly because of its quick shutter response. But I have to say I LOVE LOVE LOVE the baby mode, which lets you enter the birthday of your baby, and the photo will be recorded with his or her age when the photo was taken. Longer battery life and quick shutter release are also very good.

Both cameras claim to be good but which camera is BETTER in low light situations?

Also, is that baby feature really worth it or can you program most cameras to record the date?

And are there any features you think make the TZ3 a better camera than the F70 compared to the small sleek style I love so much in the F70

Are there any features listed that also apply to the other? What am I missing?


Thank you all so much for your input, this is REALLY helping me great deal!

[Mama Sundrop]

More to the point...

Which one of these cameras (FujiF70 or PansonicTZ3) is going to allow me to pick up the camera and catch the shot more quickly? Then take more shots quickly?

[KCook]

Neither of these cameras is weatherproofed. Even though the F70EXR is small, it is more advanced than the ZS3. The "overkill" comment may have been in regard to the zoom of the ZS3, not everybody needs that much telephoto. I suppose birthday labeling in-camera is handy, but this can also be done on your computer in editing. Startup times for these cameras are not much different. You can find detailed reviews by running Google searches on "F70EXR recommendation" and "TZ7 recommendation". Both cameras are well regarded, for their respective niches.

Kelly

[David Metsky]

Which one of these cameras (FujiF70 or PansonicTZ3) is going to allow me to pick up the camera and catch the shot more quickly? Then take more shots quickly?
Both. Neither. It depends.

Sorry, but that's the real answer. In lower light, you'll need the flash on the ZS3 which is going to slow down your shot to shot times. The Fuji can take those shots without flash and so will be much faster.

Both cameras are very good, and you should be happy with either of them. I think the birthday thing is a gimmick but if you like it, so be it. All cameras record the exact date and time the shot is recorded in the image EXIF data, so you always can get that from the image.

Since the flash on the ZS3 is fairly weak, and it's not great in low light, I'd lean towards the Fuji. You sound like you want to take a lot of people pictures indoors, which isn't the Panasonic's strong point.

[speaklightly]

The best camera for many indoor photos is the Sony H-20. It has the best flash range and recycle time. The H-20 would be better than either the Fuji F-70EXR or the Panasonic ZS3

Sarah Joyce

[Mama Sundrop]

The best camera for many indoor photos is the Sony H-20. It has the best flash range and recycle time. The H-20 would be better than either the Fuji F-70EXR or the Panasonic ZS3

Sarah Joyce

Wow. That h-20 sounds great. But does it take good pictures taken indoors without a flash? Or is that WITH the flash?

I liked the Fuji so much because it claimed to be good without the flash as well...

I will look more into both of them as I find the time! Thanx!

[Gopher]

I take it you guys mean the ( Fuji F70EXR (http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/cameraDetail.php?cam=1399))?

I haven't really kept up with the industry but Fuji's propietary sensor technology made them the low-light king of P&S for several years. For years; Fuji resisted adding IS. Instead; their customers got higher ISO to freeze action. We all screamed "Fuji! Give us IS! You'll clean up!". Now they have.

On the down side; the Fuji's have always had that over-processed look to me - the trade-off for amazing low light capability. This new EXR sensor seems to be selectable (auto selectable???) - explicitly to add dynamic range when that's more important than low light capability.

The F70EXR is too new for the DCRP review but here's the higher version using that same sensor technology that came out several months back, F200EXR (http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f200exr-review/look-and-feel). These photos don't look bad!

Another plus is that Fuji has often favored a very wide low-end of the focal range. The F70EXR goes all the way down to 27mm! Wow!

Note: The F200 has a bigger sensor so will undoubtably produce a little better photos, but it's a good explanation of the technology.

Bummer about the propietary battery but you can deal with that. Although you can just let the flash take care of the low lighting, higher ISO performance is still an important aspect. Even with flash; high ISO means less flash power. Saves the eyes, battery, and has a more natural look (strong flash gives that deer-in-the-headlightlook where your subject's head looks over-bright and the background is very dark).

[speaklightly]

Mama-

Unless, you are willing to consider a DSLR camera, which is in an entirely different league from point and shoot cameras, taking photos without the use of flash results in measurably poorer image quality.

The Sony H-20 ranks right near the best because of its excellent built-in flash unit. So when I recommended the H-20 for your indoor flash photos, I was making that suggestion based on using the H-20's built-in flash unit.

Have a great weekend.

Sarah Joyce

[Gopher]

For kids, esp. in low light, the single most important thing to look for is a quick shutter. I mean time from when you press to when the picture takes.

DSLR will be unbeatable in this area. There's so many things that go into this, not the least of which is an AF Assist lamp, that the only real test is trying them out or find someone who's got one and willing to share the honest truth.

Since you're doing kid photography, there's one nifty feature in many of the recent cameras you should know about. It's a smaller front LCD that the subject can see. Kids respond very well to this.

I recently got my wife one of the higher Canon A series (now discontinued, too bad) that has an optical viewfinder and a swivel-out LCD. I often swivel it out and around so the kids can see it then I use the viewfiner. They ham it up with some really nice poses! I only wish my DSLRs had this feature for event photography!


EDIT: Note regarding Sarah's comment. In lurking this site she seems to have the experience that demands respect. I'm sure she must agree that for indoor people photography; using a flash with low ISO is vastly different than using a weaker flash with clean high ISO. The high ISO makes the flash less necessary and creates a situation with less flash drop-off (dark background). However; I wouldn't get either if there's a long delay since you'll just get nice shots of backsides and missed moments.

She has a great point that, if you're trying flashless photography indoors, get a DSLR. ISO 1600 is minimum (in order to maintain a decent shutter speed) and even the Fuji won't give you clean ISO 1600. Kids move fast and shutters 1/250th or faster are often needed for flash-less photography.

Here is a DSLR shot showing ISO 1600 in natural light. (the guy in the camera store - a comparison shot from my 4 year old DSLR Canon 30D). Notice how clean the shadows are. Camera settings: 1/250th f4.0 ISO-1600. Clean ISO 1600 isn't too hard in the lighter areas but it gets dirty fast in the shadows. It's also nearly impossible to push the exposure up in post-processing unless it starts out relatively clean. Note: This photo was .75 stops under-exposed.

The lower photo is corrected in post processing. See how it's still relatively clean in the shadows. If it had more high-ISO noise; pushing it up 1 stop would have been VERY costly in the noise department.

Try this shot with the H20 (without flash) and it's tiny 1/2.3 CCD sensor at ISO 1600 would be too dirty to use. Try it with flash (and ISO 200) and the background will be much darker than what you see here and the flesh wouldn't have any shades - entirely different photo.

A used Canon 30D goes for about $400 - $450. A new Canon T1i with 2 IS lenses (amazing camera with HD video even) is about $1K at Costco. It's worth considering if indoor no-flash photography is really what you want. Just realize that's the cost of clean indoor no-flash photography.

I don't think that's at all what you have in mind. My point is that your expectations are too high. Plan on using a flash indoors, end of story. Better high ISO helps even flash shots, but just forget the idea of flashless indoor photography on a pocket camera - unless you don't mind a lot of noise.

[speaklightly]

I there, gopher-

Thanks for the post. Yes, you are 100% correct. Here is a simple comparison that I just did to answer a post in a different Forum.

The first photo was taken with the new Fuji F-70EXR using its built-in flash unit. It looks like this:

Sarah Joyce

[speaklightly]

OK, gopher-

Now look at this photo sample. It was taken of the same subject just 30 seconds after the first photo. It was taken with Canon XS camera. It is their least expensive DSLR camera. In this case the DSLR camera was equipped with the Sigma 17-70mm lens.

It is only a consumer level lens that you can often find at a very attractive price. But the difference between Photo Sample #1 and Photo Sample #2 is amazing. Take a look:

Sarah Joyce

[speaklightly]

OK, back to Mama's Topic-

Here is a Sony H-20 photo taken without flash. It does not look too good. You can see why I suggest using flash.

Sarah Joyce

[speaklightly]

Mama-

Here is the same photo taken using the H-20's built-in flash.

Sarah Joyce

[Gopher]

Sarah - I agree completly. Taking a non-flash indoor photo with a P&S makes for useless photos; in particular with a camera like this (poor high ISO performance).

Would you care to list the camera settings (speed, aperture, ISO) on both shots? The first is too slow; ergo blurry. The color is also off. On the 2nd; the flash stopped any motion and (because the camera knows the flash's color is 5500 Kelvin) the flesh tones are perfect.

On the flash shot; you'll notice no shadow features (that would make it more natural looking, adding depth) and there's a nasty flash shadow on the wall behind. If it were a large room such as a party situtation, the background would be much darker than if ISO 800 were employed.

I'm not sure the purpose of the post? You're making the same points I did; aren't you? If you want to take flashless indoor shots get a DSLR, or at the very least a camera that has superior high ISO performance.

All that said; the H-20 takes a very nice flash photo. The flash sample with the Fuji is just awful. I've never used either and since you have them at your disposal then, putting the technical reasons aside, it appears that the Sony simply takes better shots. I'd like to see a head-to-head of the same subjects. Some real-world mom or gramma environment such as a kids birthday party.

EDIT: RE: Your comment on the "cheapest DSLR". IMO the image quality difference in a controlled environment between the cheapest Canon DSLR and their flagship model is negligible. It's the exceptional conditions and pro-like features that cost all the money. Plenty of simi-pros have used the XS for pro events with fantastic results, nearly indistinguishable from a $5,000 D1 series.

[speaklightly]

gopher-

The H-20 existing light shot was at F 4.0 and 1/13th of a second. The H-20 flash shot was at F 4.0 at 1/50th of a second.

I like the Canon XS a lot. Why is it I still hear bad things about the XSi's correct focus ability? Most XSi users seem happy , but there is a more than normal number of users who still complain about the XSi's ability to focus correctly in varying light conditions.

Have a great day.

Sarah Joyce

[Gopher]

gopher-

The H-20 existing light shot was at F 4.0 and 1/13th of a second. The H-20 flash shot was at F 4.0 at 1/50th of a second.

I like the Canon XS a lot. Why is it I still hear bad things about the XSi's correct focus ability? Most XSi users seem happy , but there is a more than normal number of users who still complain about the XSi's ability to focus correctly in varying light conditions.

Have a great day.

Sarah Joyce
LOL; and I'm sure that's bowlers who blame their ball's lack of shine or the brand of beer they served that night; or maybe the color of the guy's shirt 3 lanes down.

I had a friend assist me at a wedding once using his XSi. He had won a few awards for his art photography and I'd shot with him on outings several times, to my envy on his results. The XSi didn't hold him back on any of these; even the dim first-dance shots. He even used the cheaper Sigma flash.

A poor camera can frustrate anyone but even then a good photographer learns the limitations and work-arounds.

That said; I'd say the 25% bump in price is well worth it for the T1 - if you have a choice.