E-P1 or GF1?

[orangejulius]

Okay, for those of you familiar with my previous thread

1.) I need a camera that has good low-light ability, specifically for concerts, so a lot of movement unfortunately. Good video taking is also a must.

2.) It needs to have something similar to a 200mm optical zoom minimum... My current camera is a DSC-W290, with a 140mm zoom that just BARELY got the job done at Lollapalooza. I wish I was able to zoom twice as much... 200-300mm is more accurate for what I need. (this will be in the circumstances that I can actually use these lenses, where they are allowed)

and;

3.)
A.) Doesn't have a detachable lens, and is pocketable (big coat pocket, that is)
B.) Or if it does have a detachable lens, does not appear to be an SLR, or is possibly small enough to hide.

I at first was considering a super-zoom like the Sony HX1 or Pany FZ-35, but once I realized they were near worthless in a dark venue when I used the zoom, I decided the new micro 4/3 cameras were very attractive, specifically the E-P1 and GF1. I've also seen good things about some of the new large-sensor P&S cameras, or "prosumer" stuff. The Fuji S200EXR is another camera I've looked at.
Both the E-P1 and GF1 are of course micro 4/3, and both don't resemble a traditional SLR, and are quite a bit smaller.

I will probably need a standard zoom lens for most work, perhaps around 150mm max.

So, which of these cameras will probably fill my needs most? I hear the Olympus has an edge on high ISO, 1600 and above, but I have also heard great things about the soom to be released GF1, like much better AF.

Style means next to nothing to me, except if it might help me sneak the camera in as a P&S lookalike.

I am probably going to buy the camera with a pancake lens ($800-900) and a decent zoom lense. ($350-900?) Also, can I use the lenses from both companies on either camera?

Thanks in advance everyone.

[David Metsky]

Stop referring to zoom as 5x or 10x. It would make much more sense to simply say how big telephoto you need in 35mm equivalent. Do you need 200mm? 300mm? That's all that you need to know, not this multiplier which is useless in this instance.

[Phill D]

I'd be carefull because as soon as you start adding long lenses on either cam you'll start to look fairly serious & could attract attention from security guys. In theory all micro 4/3 lenses should fit either camera as should the normal 4/3s lenses with an adaptor but remember the Oly has in body IS & the panny has in lens IS hence with the Oly you'll always have IS what ever lens you use, with the panny you'll only get it with panasonic or leica lenses.

[jekostas]

All micro 4/3s lenses will work on any micro 4/3s body. This is actually kind of interesting as Leica has stated that they'll be putting out some M4/3 lenses in partnership with Panasonic soon enough (two have been announced already).

Anyways, you're right about the two major differences between the cameras; The Olympus camera will have better low-light performance, the Panasonic has better AF. However, Olympus just released a firmware update for the EP-1 and all the lenses in the Olympus stable (the grand total of two right now, expect more closer to Christmas) that significantly sped up focus times, so you need to take that in to account.

I would probably pick the Olympus, personally, since the low-light performance is at least a full stop better and the in-body image stabilization does help a fair amount (especially with legacy lenses). There is a flash on the Panasonic camera, but it's so weak as to really not be worth much.

[orangejulius]

Stop referring to zoom as 5x or 10x. It would make much more sense to simply say how big telephoto you need in 35mm equivalent. Do you need 200mm? 300mm? That's all that you need to know, not this multiplier which is useless in this instance.


Yes, I know, I know, I've just been lobotomized by P&S cameras being referred to in "x".

Yes, I suck at this. But I'm trying.

After research I now understand that my W290 is 28-140mm equivalent. In other words, a 200mm is about what I'd like to settle at. Now I understand "zoom" a bit better.

I've found a decent 45-200mm m4/3 lens on Amazon, and I'm thinking it might be a good pairing with the 20mm or 17mm that comes with the GF1 and E-P1.

So how would the built in AF on the Olympus be affected if I used a Pany/Leica lens with AF?

I'm starting to lean towards the Oly now, perhaps with the 14-42mm.

Phill D, I know the telephoto lens will be big... I am planning on using it for non-restricted events... sorry for not clarifying.

Thanks jekostas, your comment was very helpful.

Does anyone know how much the firmware update for the Oly equipment improved AF? I've seen in many reviews that it was almost a dealbreaker, almost like the camera wasn't finished. If the update improves that quite a bit though, I'm much more likely to pick it.

[jekostas]

So how would the built in AF on the Olympus be affected if I used a Pany/Leica lens with AF?

I'm sure you meant image stabilization, but it doesn't matter - reports have stated that when you mount a Panasonic/Leica lens to the EP-1, the EP-1 will automatically disable in-body image stabilization, as in-body IS is slightly less effective than in-lens. The plus of in-body, of course, is that it will stabilize any lens.

Even if it doesn't, you can disable in-body image stabilization on Olympus bodies (and you should when using a tripod anyways), and in-lens stabilization via a switch on the side of Panasonic/Leica lenses.



Does anyone know how much the firmware update for the Oly equipment improved AF? I've seen in many reviews that it was almost a dealbreaker, almost like the camera wasn't finished. If the update improves that quite a bit though, I'm much more likely to pick it.

I've read reports of anywhere from 20-40% improvement in focusing, depending on lens and available light levels. Low light focusing seems to have gotten the biggest improvement.
Probably not as good as the focus speeds will be on the GF-1, but combined with the in-body IS and better low-light performance, the EP-1 may now just edge it out.

[orangejulius]

The low light improvement is promising if that's the case, as the biggest criticism I've seen of the EP-1 is AF times, especially in low light.

Are there any actual reviews testing this out?

I'm not going to be able to tripod this camera anyway, as I will be in a concert... So AF performance in low-light is make or break.

[David Metsky]

Yes, I know, I know, I've just been lobotomized by P&S cameras being referred to in "x".

Yes, I suck at this. But I'm trying.
And my response came off pretty snippy. That wasn't my intention, I was just rushed for time. Sorry.

[K1W1]

Is video or still photography the primary aim here?

If it's video there are some very small digital video cameras around these days that don't really look like video cameras. Something like this (http://us.sanyo.com/Digital-Camcorders/VPC-HD1010BK-Full-1080p-HD-Video-30fps-and-4MP-Photos) perhaps.

[orangejulius]

And my response came off pretty snippy. That wasn't my intention, I was just rushed for time. Sorry.

No problem... I'm working on understanding some of what is involved in good photography, but I'm only a few months into truly taking pictures. And that's with P&S cameras, where they dumb it down big time.

[orangejulius]

Is video or still photography the primary aim here?

If it's video there are some very small digital video cameras around these days that don't really look like video cameras. Something like this (http://us.sanyo.com/Digital-Camcorders/VPC-HD1010BK-Full-1080p-HD-Video-30fps-and-4MP-Photos) perhaps.

Photography mostly, but with the ability to take video. I will mostly be limiting my video to 10 minute clips anyway, as that's all I will need for songs at concerts.

[K1W1]

I've found a decent 45-200mm m4/3 lens on Amazon, and I'm thinking it might be a good pairing with the 20mm or 17mm that comes with the GF1 and E-P1.

You need to pick up on a few more things before you get to carried away.

First do some reading about lens speeds. If the lens you are talking about is the Panasonic 45-200 f4-5.6 it's sloooooow!. What that means is that even at the short (45mm) end the largest aperture you have available is f4 so in a dark room with variable light you are going to need high ISO and very slow shutter speeds to get acceptable images. As you zoom longer the minimum aperture will increase through to f5.6 which means even higher ISO or slower shutter speeds to get the same image captured. Slow shutter speeds aren't great for moving subjects.

To be able to capture any sort of acceptable images in the situations you are talking about imo you will need a lens with a constant aperture in the f1.4 to f2.8 range. realistically f1.8 or f2.0 will probably be best. This means pro lens or at least a prime lens rather than a zoom.

The next thing is crop factor. The 4/3 cameras have a 2x crop factor which means that the 45-200 has a field of view equal to a 90-400 on a 35mm film camera. That is way longer than you probably need, even the short end is towards the maximum length that you were originally looking for.

if you stick with the 4/3 style cameras imo you should be looking a a lens that is a maximum of 150mm, you would probably even get away with something in the 100mm range.

[orangejulius]

I'm sorry I didn't make this more clear... the 45-200mm will be for outdoor events, like a ballgame I'm going to in a couple weeks. I think it'll be okay as long as long as it's not an overcast day, right? I mainly intend to stick to smaller lenses, like the 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 or 17mm f/2.8 kit lenses that can be purchased with the E-P1 or the 20mm f/1.7 and 14-45 mm F/3.5-F/5.6 that come with the GF1.

I try my best to always be front row so I can use the minimum zoom with my current camera, because like you said... If I use the zoom on my W290 my success rate goes from maybe 15-25% down to maybe 5% at best.

What I'm finding difficult is the decision to go with the Pany or Oly at this point... :confused:

[raven15]

Apparently, autofocus goes like this:

Fastest: Panasonic lens & Panasonic Camera
Middle: Olympus lens & Panasonic Camera, Pansonic lens & Olympus camera
Slowest: Olympus lens & Olympus camera

My personal choice would be one camera and three lenses: Olympus EP-1 with Olympus 14-42mm kit lens, Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 pancake lens, and Panasonic 45-200mm telephoto lens.

The reasons are:
~The EP-1 & 14-42mm should have mildly faster focusing than before with the firmware updates, and I prefer the color and general quality of the Olympus JPEGs, even in RAW it looks to have an edge. Most importantly, IS on all lenses!
~The 14-42 kit lens is cheap, small and versatile.
~The 20mm pancake just got a glowing review on DPReview and looks great, the large aperture should be useful.
~The 45-200mm looks good, with nice reach and focus speed in a good size and acceptable quality. Plus, as jekostas says, it's IS is more effective than the EP-1's.

[mlhm5]

To stop movement you will be shooting at ISO 800-1600 even with a 2.8 lens, unless you have access to the stage.

Same problem as shooting basketball, except the lightening is better courtside.

[orangejulius]

I plan on using the 20mm from front row, so I'm thinking iso800 (maybe even 400 if the light is right?) will do the trick?

I think I'm going with the GF1 at this point.