D90 ISO L1.0 in bright sunlight

[tim11]

D90 ISO 200 L1.0 (Equivalent to ISO100) in bright sunlight... For those who know would already have known what I'm getting at; right?

Well.... theoretically L1.0 is equivalent to ISO100 but I think I do need the ND filter to cut down one stop. I keep getting blurry shots and wonder what the hell is going on until I read somewhere that L1.0 takes an over exposed ISO200 shot and save it to -1.0 EV...

What do you guys do? Use smaller apertures? ND filter for human subjects?

[VTEC_EATER]

Why are your shots blurry in the first place? Too long of shutter speeds? I would say an increase in ISO would speed up the shutter speeds and give you less blurry shots.

There is no real need to use ISO100 unless you want to drag your shutter in daylight. ND filters will only allow you to drag the shutter more, making for blurrier (is that a word?) shots.

Do you have a shot we can look at to see what the problem is?

[kjmdrumz3]

It's probably a defective unit. Send it to me and I'll send my perfectly good D40x ;)

[XaiLo]

It's probably a defective unit. Send it to me and I'll send my perfectly good D40x ;)

Nah... it's just upside down send it to me it will work just fine here! :D

[r3g]

I just dont go below ISO200. Is there a reason you desire to use the lower settings? Is there something ISO200 isnt doing for you?

[Rooz]

i dont understand what your getting at tim. the d300 has the same LO1 setting, i think all cameras with the 12mp chip are the same, (d90/300/5000), even the FX chips are the same with their Lo1 setting

[K1W1]

The native ISO rating of the Sony sensor is 200. Using ISO 100 is using smoke and mirrors a bit like digital zoom on a P&S it will always degrade the image so don't use it.
That said I always understood blurry was as a result of poor focus or camera shake.

[tim11]

It's probably a defective unit. Send it to me and I'll send my perfectly good D40x ;)

Ahh... thanks for your concern but it's not defective and I have no intention to exchange it for a D40x. :eek: I'm quite happy with my D90 except that I have to learn to get along with it; being a different animal to the D80 that I already get along with.

I use L1.0 because it was a bright sunny day and using ISO200 will over exposed. They were a series of about 10 shots and 7 result in fuzzy details - over exposed like shots. I had to sharpen them a great deal to be of any use. It's more like hazy than blurry.

I first noticed it when I took some pix of the kids outside with fill flash.
First I thought it was the effect of handshaking but it wasn't long focal; and from my own experience hand shake might cause 1 out of every 10 on a bad day, not 7 out of 10.
I shot with L1.0 and flash, except I forgot to use BL mode and that might contribute to the hazy effect? And strong glare from the 16-85VR combined with L1.0?

[jcon]

What was your aperture and shutter speed?

[r3g]

Have you tried compensating for the overexposure at ISO200 by stopping down or increasing yoru shutter speed? Quicker shutter could help with your blur situation also.

[Rooz]

iso100 is a stop down on highlight dynamic range so when you combine that with a sunny day i guess you have a problem. in fact the sensors optimal DR is at iso400. it shouldnt be blurry though.

if it wwas too bright, then why not stop down or bump up your shutter ?

perhaps some examples would help here.

[XaiLo]

iso100 is a stop down on highlight dynamic range so when you combine that with a sunny day i guess you have a problem. in fact the sensors optimal DR is at iso400. it shouldnt be blurry though.

if it wwas too bright, then why not stop down or bump up your shutter ?

perhaps some examples would help here.

Where'd you pick up on this tid bit Rooz sounds like it would make for some good reading.

[Rooz]

dpreview. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond90/page22.asp

Sensitivity Shadow range Highlight range Usable range
ISO 100 -4.6 EV 3.0 EV 7.6 EV
ISO 200 -4.4 EV 3.9 EV 8.3 EV
ISO 400 -4.8 EV 3.9 EV 8.6 EV

[SreckoA4]

I think the problem is in fill flash .

When you use fill flash with built in flash on camera then your shutter speed is max only on 1/60 sec. We know that this is too slow for sunny days and everything gets blown out. And 1/60 sec. can be slow even for kids. That is why you get blurry pictures.

So the only option is to use external flash unit with High Speed Sync so you can go up to 1/4000 sec. or 1/8000 sec. with D300, D700, etc . to get correct shutter speed to keep the background exposed properly and to cover shadows with flash.

I think this is your problem. So if you use built in flash then you cannot get right exposed picture with flash. You can see that if you close flash and mesure at the subject. If the shutter is more than 1/60 sec. then youll get blown outs with flash. If it is under 1/60 then it will be ok. So the only way is to shoot without flash or to get external flash and use High Speed Sync to reach shutter speeds in bright sunny days to get right exposured pictures .

[achuang]

That is incorrect. When using the popup flash, a shutter speed up to the camera's maximum sync speed can be used whether it be 1/200-1/500. 1/60 is the default slowest shutter speed on nikons when using flash. But this can be increased or decreased.

[SreckoA4]

Yes. Your right.
Well i dont use built in flash so I almost forgot how it goes. With maximum sync speed you can bump up built in flash up to 1/200 sec. on Nikon D90. I think D300, etc can go up to 1/250 sec. if im not wrong.
Only D40 can go up to 1/500 sec.

Anyway i think that is the problem that tim11 has with his pictures. He uses default flash shutter speeds.
When you use flash in bright suny day you must get shuter speed high enough to get right exposure.

[tim11]

Okay, here is one of the shots. It was shot with SB800.
Looking at the data I didn't even put the camera into FP Off.
From memory it shouldn't be over-exposed or the camera would have shown 'HIGH'. Don't you think the image look washed out (over-exposed)or hazy rather than blurry? And the kids weren't even moving.... The photos were corrected, sharpened; etc and I salvaged most of them. I'm just curious about why this happened and prevent the same from happening again.

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[K1W1]

Just out of interest why are you using active d lighting and flash and I assume you converted it to sRGB for the jpeg.

[tim11]

Active lighting was the default setting if I'm not wrong. And I never thought of Active Lighting effect until I saw some effect it has on human subjects - and it's now OFF since.

[XaiLo]

Thanks Rooz!

[XaiLo]

Active lighting was the default setting if I'm not wrong. And I never thought of Active Lighting effect until I saw some effect it has on human subjects - and it's now OFF since.

I think a lot of people came to the same conclusion for that very reason!!!

And Tim your shutter speed is 1/60 that's a tad bit low I'd say and the issue. Also it looks like focus might be off slightly.

[VTEC_EATER]

Is this a 100% crop? It looks like you cropped it to 3x4, but I wasn't sure of how cropped in this photo is. Also, what other post processing have you done to the image?

I would say these shots turned out the way they did because of all the wrong settings. Yes, all of them. This is not a cut on you at all Tim, please let me explain.

First off, shutter speed. Its bright and sunny out, that means fast shutter speeds are necessary in order to get proper exposure. You were shooting at 1/60 (default setting with the pop up flash, I will get to that). 1/60 will over expose most shots on bright sunny days unless you are using a stopped down lens (you were shooting at F/6.3, I will get to this). If you can't stop down the lens enough, or artistically it doesn't work for your shot, you will need a slower film/sensor. You shot at ISO100, AWESOME! But there was a problem with this too, I will get to that. If you can not go down any more, as you know, you will need a ND filter to cut even more light. You didn't use one, but I wouldn't recommend that for the shot anyways. So right now, your shutter speed is just too slow for proper exposure.

I touched on the aperture thing in the last paragraph, but on a sunny day, apertures need to be small in order to get proper exposure. Again this can be modified through film/sensor sensitivity, or through ND filters, but you were already at ISO100, and you had no ND filters to use (again, not recommending one for this shot). Here's the thing: Its called the Sunny 16 rule. It means that on a bright sunny day, if you stop down your lens to F/16, your shutter speed should match your film/sensor speed. Meaning, F/16 with ISO100 at 1/100ss would make for a well exposed image. ISO200 gets a shutter speed of 1/200, and so on and so forth. You were shooting at F/6.3, not F/16. Basically that means that your lens is letting in another 1.333 stops of light than F/16 would. At ISO100 your shutter speed would have to be 1/320 if you wanted a properly exposed image. Again, as I mentioned in the paragraph above, you were shooting at 1/60 which is 2.333 stops slower than 1/320. Meaning your shot is approximately 2.333 stops overexposed. Overexposure leads to washed out images, and blown highlights. Your image above has both.

And on to the flash. Was there any particular reason why you shot with a fill flash on this shot? Were you in shade? Heres the thing about flash and film/sensor speed. At ISO100, the flash power is considerably stronger than at ISO200, or 400, etc.... Since the sensor is on such a low sensitivity, the flash overcompensates to make sure the sensor picks up the light. Even with your flash turned to -.7, that was not enough. I don't know how far you can turn down the pop up flash, but if it is only 1 stop, that is probably still not enough. My SB800 can go up or down 3 stops if I want, so that offers much more freedom to get the shots to look right.

As a general rule when using pop up flash, its really not a good idea to use with such low sensor sensitivity settings. The problem is your adjustments of the flash are so limited (flash strength, location relative to model, level of diffusing/modifying the flash light, etc...). With an SB flash, you may be able to get away with it on the camera because you can adjust it quite a bit more. With the SB off camera, you have a lot more adjustability and can make these shots work. I am assuming the pop up flash was bare and not diffused at all? The white collar is WAY blown out. Diffusing the flash would help, but coupled with the other wrong settings the photo didn't stand a chance.

Again, don't take this as a cut. Sometimes these types of things just aren't going through your head while you are out shooting. I know they aren't going though my head, hence the reason I bracket my shots constantly. I never know whats going to look right until I play around a bit.

In conclusion, I would say your shots look this way due to using such a low sensor sensitivity, coupled with a flash that does not allow much flexibility in its settings, location, and diffusivity, and the fact that the default shutter speed is still at 1/60. The shot may have worked better with a higher ISO as the camera would have dialed down the flash even more, but you really need to play with that default shutter speed setting.

Here's a tip, on days like this where lighting is tough, switch to full manual. If the camera can't get it right in the first place, you take control. If your shots are over exposed, turn up the shutter speed. The flash too strong? Dial it back a bit. Play around with it. Have fun, if the shots suck, chalk it up to a learning experience. You will get it all figured out in time. That's all part of the fun.

Hope that was helpful.

[jcon]

The exposure looks fine in that picture. It looks like bad focus to me.

The one thing in the EXIF that stood out to me was the same thing K1W1 mentioned... Active Lighting. Had exposure been off, I wouldve suggested that was the culprit.

[tim11]

Thank you VTec for you detailed explanations. There are many things that I know already and there are many things that I didn't. One thing for sure is when taking the shots it never occurred to me to use BL and FP on. BTW: it was shot with SB800; not with pop up flash. I can't remember now if it's 100% crop but the image wasn't post processed.
I'd never use F/16 for portrait shots so I might need to buy another ND filter. I already have one that cuts 2 stops.
This test shot was done before a couple of sessions of hired shooting at a preschool and I'm glad I did it. Because it was the first time I used a new camera + new lens. The sessions went well.


...Overexposure leads to washed out images, and blown highlights. Your image above has both.
I read somewhere that using L1.0 is -1.0EV of ISO200 and I read somewhere that the camera takes over exposed image from ISO200 and save it into ISO100, maybe that is partly the problem.


The exposure looks fine in that picture. It looks like bad focus to me....
Hmmm.........well... so IMAGE STABILISER is over rated then. I can't really remember at the time but I could be testing how well VR from my new 16-85 lens works too.


The native ISO rating of the Sony sensor is 200. Using ISO 100 is using smoke and mirrors a bit like digital zoom on a P&S it will always degrade the image so don't use it.
That said I always understood blurry was as a result of poor focus or camera shake. I couldn't make up my mind if the image posted was poor focus or over exposed... that was why I started this thread; and now there seems to be no unanimous decision either. LOL.

Does anyone else with D300, D90 or other cameras with native ISO200 ever shoot L1.0 and come across a series of seemingly washed out or badly focused images?

[BikerJohn]

Rooz,
Interesting Tidbit of information. Also very interesting (or surprising to me) on that page was the ability of camera to shoot that much better with Raw vs. jpeg. Also the differences in what picture control presets give you surprised me some. When I first got my D90 I liked the vivid setting the best. I've left it on there and rarely shot raw (I don't take the time for post processing). Maybe I should consider that now for more of my pictures.

Tim, I never use L1.0. Mostly ISO 200.

[tim11]

....
Tim, I never use L1.0. Mostly ISO 200.

What about sunny day outdoors John? Do you just use smaller aperture or ND filter?

[Rooz]

Rooz,
Interesting Tidbit of information. Also very interesting (or surprising to me) on that page was the ability of camera to shoot that much better with Raw vs. jpeg. Also the differences in what picture control presets give you surprised me some. When I first got my D90 I liked the vivid setting the best. I've left it on there and rarely shot raw (I don't take the time for post processing). Maybe I should consider that now for more of my pictures.

Tim, I never use L1.0. Mostly ISO 200.

if you nail the exposures then jpeg vs raw is basically no different. where raw is a MASSIVE advantage is recovery of a bad exposure. ie: blown highlights/ shadows etc. you can just recover so much more from a raw file.

[herc182]

not sure if this was mentioned but the focal length is 62mm which is about 90mm after the 1.5 conversion factor. 1/60 (stabilised or not) is usually too slow for hand holding...that might be why its slightly blurry...

[VTEC_EATER]

not sure if this was mentioned but the focal length is 62mm which is about 90mm after the 1.5 conversion factor. 1/60 (stabilised or not) is usually too slow for hand holding...that might be why its slightly blurry...

Either that or Tim did not give the VR enough time to lock on. If that VR is still hunting to get the image stabilized and the shot is taken, you will get blurry photos.

As for me and ISO100, I have used it. I do not find any noticeable difference in the shots taken with that vs. ISO200. Like I said, if you need ISO100 so you can drag a shutter, or you want to mess around with different flash setups it is useful. But if the camera shoots best at ISO200, and you dont need ISO100 for your purposes, I would say it is best to stick to ISO200.

[BikerJohn]

No filters for me. I'm too cheap and I have kids. No time to consider putting them on. (I'm no expert either - still learning). I leave it to ISO 200, use aperture priority, compose the shot, pick my focus point with the arrows on the back (I forget the actual name) and take a picture. If it doesn't look right on the picture or the histogram, then I check my settings to see what I left on by accident from the last time I had it out, fix that, then shoot again. If it still isn't right then I'll pick from my on camera flash or more than likely the SB-600 (which I'm still playing and learning how to use it). But if it's a bright sunny day I probably won't have my SB-600 with me. I also use vivid and I have bumped up the sharpening in camera a bit.

On your shot, I don't see how it can be too sunny when you are using 1/60 and F6.3, that's early evening or early morning light if you ask me. If it's bright then I'd pick the aperture I want for depth of field and let the speed play out. Unless of course you want to show motion then that changes my thinking ;)

[jcon]

Either that or Tim did not give the VR enough time to lock on. If that VR is still hunting to get the image stabilized and the shot is taken, you will get blurry photos.



Bingo !! !

[K1W1]

VR doesn't hunt its focus that hunts.

[BikerJohn]

I have set up my D90 so that it beeps when it finds the focus. Actually I'm fairly certain it came out of the box that way.

[K1W1]

They do and most people turn the beep off because it's annoying to people around you when you are taking photos in situations where other people are present.

[achuang]

VR hunts for maybe half a second and then stabilises more so if you wait a bit longer then the effect is greater to an extent.

[jcon]

VR hunts for maybe half a second and then stabilises more so if you wait a bit longer then the effect is greater to an extent.


I dont know about that... I rented the 70-200 VR a week ago for a Wedding and it would "hunt" for stabilization for a couple seconds. It very well could have been the lens though as the pictures came out either soft or the wrong area of the image would be in focus.

[tim11]

Rooz,
Interesting Tidbit of information. Also very interesting (or surprising to me) on that page was the ability of camera to shoot that much better with Raw vs. jpeg. Also the differences in what picture control presets give you surprised me some. When I first got my D90 I liked the vivid setting the best. I've left it on there and rarely shot raw (I don't take the time for post processing). Maybe I should consider that now for more of my pictures.
.....

Like Rooz said. Apart from other benefits, shooting RAW gives you the 2nd chance should you stuff up the shot. Easier to change the colours, sharpness; etc. without degrading the image quality. If you don't post process your images there is no point in shooting RAW, however.
The shots that got me started this thread were in RAW and they were post processed to give excellent results still. It wouldn't be possible had they been in JPG.



On your shot, I don't see how it can be too sunny when you are using 1/60 and F6.3, that's early evening or early morning light if you ask me. If it's bright then I'd pick the aperture I want for depth of field and let the speed play out. .....
Flash can be used on back lit subjects even on sunny days. That's to eliminate darkened face or the 'raccoon eyes' effect. I had to use F/6.3 because the camera screamed 'overexposed'. People have used fill flash outdoors on sunny day, there is nothing new to it but what I should have done was putting the SB800 in BL mode and FP ON; then I might have different result.


I have set up my D90 so that it beeps when it finds the focus. Actually I'm fairly certain it came out of the box that way.
Like K1W1 said. LOL. All the digital cameras I have, after pulling them out of the boxes, power on, setting date/time, the next thing I do is scramble to turn off the sound. It annoys the hell out of me and it attracts too much attention.


not sure if this was mentioned but the focal length is 62mm which is about 90mm after the 1.5 conversion factor. 1/60 (stabilised or not) is usually too slow for hand holding...that might be why its slightly blurry...
No one mentioned this before you and it never crossed my mind either. Maybe I didn't give it enough time to lock. Or maybe I was careless in holding the camera trying to test the effect of VR? I cant' remember if that was the case at the time.
If VR isn't effective at 62 mm, then VR is much over rated. And that leads to Jcon's comment:

... I rented the 70-200 VR a week ago for a Wedding and it would "hunt" for stabilization for a couple seconds. It very well could have been the lens though as the pictures came out either soft or the wrong area of the image would be in focus.
Personally, I can hold still about 1/15sec and still get decent sharpness and I don't see starkly different result when VR is ON. In theory, 16-85 should give me a difference of 2 stops; i.e. 1/4second. So how really effective is VR? I wonder. But that's a different topic.


All in all... the batch of shots I did that day had all the ingredients for bad shots, namely questionable L1.0, but more importantly I put flash on wrong modes (BL and FP), the urge to rely on VR, too wide an aperture, Active DLighting accidently left ON; etc.
I thought people might be able pinpoint the ONE mistake I made, but maybe the bad shots result from many combinations of errors as many people point to some other possible faults. I would never thought of all these possible mistakes myself and I will be more aware and try to avoid them in the future. Thank you for your interest.