Canon 30D vs. XSi

[bruuen]

This is a repost from the slr chat, but figure i'll have better luck here

i'm trying to do my own leg work here and I'm leaning to think a last generation pro-sumer camera (30D) vs a current generation entry camera (XSi) would yield better results.

I would love to additionally get the opinion of the experts here. I know theres many factors - so my history: i plan to merge into full manual mode, i understand the use of setting, have read numerous photography books etc.etc. so even though this being my first SLR i want to grow with it and it won't just be a fling of the month for me. (i'm also hoping to get some decent lens' used too) problem is i'm going to greece in the summer, and combined with that trip i can't save much more money, but it'd kill me to photograph such a beautiful place with a point-and-shoot camera.

thanks for the help!

[01514]

why not 40D not much difference in price with XSI ?

[TenD]

Cameras have generally improved as time as moved forward. That being said, I have no problem being a couple of years behind the current model. I currently own a 30D and a 5D, both a generation or two behind. Unless you plan on printing very large(I routinely print 13x19 with all of my cameras including an S2 and G9 with good results)or plan on selling to glossy magazines, the 8mp of the 30D will do just about all you need it to. Ergonomically a 30D is better than an Xsi, and much easier to use in M mode. Invest in good lenses and an older body will have no problem keeping up with today's newer bodies.

[michaelb]

...Ergonomically a 30D is better than an Xsi, and much easier to use in M mode. Invest in good lenses and an older body will have no problem keeping up with today's newer bodies.

Agreed. Although do you realize that used 40D's are going for about $650? - that's what I would do. 40D = better AF (biggest factor to me), bigger LCD, faster, more MP, etc.

[Rhys]

I use an XT and a 30D. The 30D gives me more control and is easier to use. The XT is smaller and lighter. That's about the same difference as between the 30D and XSi.

Both will take an excellent photo, used correctly. They are slightly different featurewise. I would recommend the 30D if you plan to take flash photos of events. Otherwise the XSi will be almost identical.

[FLiPMaRC]

Agreed. Although do you realize that used 40D's are going for about $650? - that's what I would do. 40D = better AF (biggest factor to me), bigger LCD, faster, more MP, etc.

+1 for the 40D :)

[adam75south]

i'm gonna have to suggest the 40d also. i picked one up with 3k clicks on it for around $700 about 6 months ago and they're even cheaper now. there's a free program that allows you to see how many pictures the previous owner took on it so you know exactly how "used" it is. the 30d has no program where you can find that info.

[bruuen]

thanks for everyones insights...i'd definitely love a 40d, Its to bad i'm up in Canada. I loved when our dollar was on par, made things so easy. Typically they're going for $750-800 used here for the body, at least according to the craigslist page when i type it in. I can pretty much wait this out until, may, so hopefully i will get a good price.

Thats interesting that you can see how many pictures someone has taken with it. Almost like a car odometer. How many clicks do shutters typically last for?

Last thing in regards to Rhys comment. If pictures are pretty much identical with a 30d and Xsi, whats the big selling point to opt for the D series over the Rebel series? (i'm sorry if this exhausts an old topic, but i'm really curious)

[adam75south]

30d and 40d are rated at 100,000 on shutter life...you can replace the shutter for i think around US$200.

i think the main difference is the d series has a wheel that makes it possible for extremely quick adjustments. for a person that shoots full manual it really comes in handy. 30d and 40d also have spot meter which i don't think the xsi has.

[bruuen]

thanks...actually i think the xsi does have spot metering, just not the xs. Even though ergonomically the wheel i'm sure would be awesome, there must be a lot more to it than that to be in a different camera class?

After sifting through ended auctions on ebay.ca the following tend to be 'good' prices for the following models in CDN$ and then adding an additional $30 or so for shipping:

40D: $700
XSi: $550
30D: $500
20D: $350
XTi: $350
XT: $250 (refurbished from Canon Canada site)

Down the road I can always upgrade, on a budget wanting amazing pictures of my vacation destinations with the intention to keep this camera at least 1-2 years, i'm trying to see what would be most worth it. 40D is still a significant jump, especially consdering the price of adding some good lens. Thats why i initially compared the 30d and xsi. Live mode and over 8mp aren't a big deal really.

[Elisha82]

if you are in the GTA area, this may be an option: http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-cameras-camcorders-Canon-40D-W0QQAdIdZ105188729

or this: http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-cameras-camcorders-QUICKSALE-Canon-40D-dslr-body-W0QQAdIdZ104871413

[Rhys]

thanks...actually i think the xsi does have spot metering, just not the xs. Even though ergonomically the wheel i'm sure would be awesome, there must be a lot more to it than that to be in a different camera class?

After sifting through ended auctions on ebay.ca the following tend to be 'good' prices for the following models in CDN$ and then adding an additional $30 or so for shipping:

40D: $700
XSi: $550
30D: $500
20D: $350
XTi: $350
XT: $250 (refurbished from Canon Canada site)

Down the road I can always upgrade, on a budget wanting amazing pictures of my vacation destinations with the intention to keep this camera at least 1-2 years, i'm trying to see what would be most worth it. 40D is still a significant jump, especially consdering the price of adding some good lens. Thats why i initially compared the 30d and xsi. Live mode and over 8mp aren't a big deal really.

Quite honestly, I've had my XT for 4 years and I still use it a lot. I feel no pressing reason to upgrade either my XT or my 30D. 8mp is very adequate for most wedding photography etc. Sure - I'd love to have a 5D Mk2 with 6400 ISO but I don't need one. I'll keep using what I have until I need to upgrade.

[Csae]

I honestly don't think you'll be using any of the features that make a 30D or a 40D worth while.

So i would say go for XSI, or a XT and invest in better glass, or flash equipement.

I've had a XT before i purchased my 5D just to get my feet wet, and it makes for an awesome backup/lightweight camera.

Some places i'd rather show up with my XT then my 5D so i dont get my ass mugged.

[te1221]

I honestly don't think you'll be using any of the features that make a 30D or a 40D worth while.

So i would say go for XSI, or a XT and invest in better glass, or flash equipement.

I've had a XT before i purchased my 5D just to get my feet wet, and it makes for an awesome backup/lightweight camera.

Some places i'd rather show up with my XT then my 5D so i dont get my ass mugged.

I hear that... I'm thinking about getting an XS or XSI with a Tamron 17-50 2.8 as a vacation camera so I dont have to lug around my 5D and risk getting it stolen.

[bruuen]

[QUOTE=Csae;357930]I honestly don't think you'll be using any of the features that make a 30D or a 40D worth while.
QUOTE]

just for comparisons sake though. what are some of the features on the 40d that would make it worth while compared to xsi (beyond the manual wheel, mp's. I'm trying to figure out whats at the camera core that put its in a different class?)

[adam75south]

there must be a lot more to it than that to be in a different camera class?


the xxd fits in most hands a lot better than xxxd, the xxd series cameras have bodies made of magnesium alloy, not plastic. you can adjust ISO by 1/3 stops instead of being limited to full stops, you can expand ISO to 3200 instead of being limited to 1600, generally there's no pc sync port on the xxxd series which the xxd series have for wired off camera flash triggering, 1/250s flash sync on xxd, generally the xxxd are limited to 1/200s, xxd have a 1/8000s max shutter xxxd have 1/4000s, and then there's the extended shutter life of the xxd.

[Rhys]

The XT/XTi/XS/XSi are small and compact. That's their strength.

If compactness is desired then the Olympus series is very good. Image quality is excellent. Some will say that high-iso leaves something to be desired but honestly that's nit-picking and at standard print sizes the difference will not be noticed.

[Nickcanada]

[QUOTE=Csae;357930]I honestly don't think you'll be using any of the features that make a 30D or a 40D worth while.
QUOTE]

just for comparisons sake though. what are some of the features on the 40d that would make it worth while compared to xsi (beyond the manual wheel, mp's. I'm trying to figure out whats at the camera core that put its in a different class?)

I think what is really at the "core" of the differences is that the xxD series is closer to a "pro" body. Whenever I read about pros talking about their gear, one thing I hear over and over is that they use whatever gear gets in their way the least. The XXXD is set up for beginners and it compromises comfort for a smaller size and a less intimidating interface. For advanced users the dumbed down interface and smaller size gets in the way of changing settings quickly.

For me that is the major difference.

[Elisha82]

personally i would go for the bigger camera. pinky real estate is very important especially with a heavy lens.
i hate when you can only fit 3 fingers on the grip and you pinky has nowhere to go unless you have a vertical grip.

[Rhys]

personally i would go for the bigger camera. pinky real estate is very important especially with a heavy lens.
i hate when you can only fit 3 fingers on the grip and you pinky has nowhere to go unless you have a vertical grip.

You should always support lenses with your left hand. Thus pinky estate is really a non-issue. I have medium-sized hands and while I like the grip on my XT, I have used it without and am quite happy with and without.

[adam75south]

she's talking about the pinky on her right hand rhys.

[Elisha82]

all your fingers need somewhere to go. can't just let the pinky off that easy!
that's just me :-)

[Mark_48]

If it were me getting my first DSLR and going on a vacation with it, I would probably opt for a XXXD model and use the extra money for a good lens. The OP hasn't even begun to ask about lenses yet. The XXXD model might have less of a learning curve and if you're on a vacation ease of use may be important. Also the XXXD model would be lighter in weight to carry around for long periods.
For vacations that I pretty much know I'll only want snapshot type stuff, I still have a Rebel 300D with a Sigma 18-200 (non-IS) that is perfectly adequate for vacation snapshooting. There are a few things it can't do that my XXD models can, but for most shots I take, the 300D does the job fine. It's also the camera that sort of stays in the car most of the time, so I'm not caught wishing I had something with me.

A camera you'll likely upgrade every couple of years or so, a good lens you'll probably keep a longer time, likely be more important for image quality than the camera, and you'll probably use it on your next camera(s). If the budget is tight, my choice would be good glass over camera.

[bruuen]

the replies have been very helpful. thanks to everyone!

I purposely left lens out of this conversation, because i know the thread could take a 180 very fast if i did. I've been on amazon.com like a hawk though, i probably know most of the main consumer lens inside and out now. I was originally convinced that i wanted a canon lens, but the 'Tamron AF 28-75mm f/2.8' is looking very convincing for the price (although i know it won't get quite as wide as i may like on a 1.6 crop. or the 'Tamron AF 17-50mm F/2.8'

Even though its for vacations 'for now' i hate to use the term 'snapshots' because like i said, i do put thought into my photos and use full manual functions. So even though this is my first slr, its not like i'm a complete noob who will be stuck in P mode the whole time.

[Clyde]

I was originally convinced that i wanted a canon lens, but the 'Tamron AF 28-75mm f/2.8' is looking very convincing for the price (although i know it won't get quite as wide as i may like on a 1.6 crop. or the 'Tamron AF 17-50mm F/2.8'


I have the 28-75 f/2.8, and it is a wonderful lens. If I were buying today, however, I'd go for the wider 17-50. Eventually adding the delightful cheap IS-ed 55-250 makes a killer kit. Most people recommend a 50mm prime, and the f/1.8 is dirt cheap. However, on my Xt it focuses slowly and unreliably in low light, which is where I'd like to use it. I'd recommend skipping it and saving for the more expensive 50mm f/1.4

My impression was that generically speaking the xxd models focus better than the xxxd. The high ISO performance of the 40d should be better than the 30d, and that might be important to you as you already are planning on getting a fast lens.

If you aren't planning on shooting sports or low light stuff, the 30d or XSi should be fine options. If you plan on stretching your camera in the low light/action direction, you might want the 40d.

Buying used seems smart, any one of these cameras is a first rate tool.

Good Luck,

[bruuen]

thanks for your opinion clyde. I think the 17-50mm would be a lot smarter as well for only having one lens for the time being. Closer is definitely more useful than distance in typical everyday scenarios.

Last thing regarding the xxD and xxxD series... does the informational display on the top of the xxd make a world of difference to you in manual mode, or is it not a big deal adjusting to having everything on the lcd?

[Rhys]

The purpose of the top LCD is that it doesn't consume as much power as the big color LCD display. Thus batteries will last longer.

As to the lenses, I have the 28-75 and don't like it that much. I prefer my 17-85 BUT would not suggest buying either. Instead I suggest a 24-70L and maybe a 12-24 Tokina.

[Nickcanada]

thanks for your opinion clyde. I think the 17-50mm would be a lot smarter as well for only having one lens for the time being. Closer is definitely more useful than distance in typical everyday scenarios.

Last thing regarding the xxD and xxxD series... does the informational display on the top of the xxd make a world of difference to you in manual mode, or is it not a big deal adjusting to having everything on the lcd?

Most of the information is in the viewfinder. The only think I'm not sure of is ISO and maybe metering mode AF mode and a few other things but really I wouldn't consider it deal breaking stuff personally.

On lenses, don't discount the 18-55mm IS kit lens!!! It's a great value and a nice lens to start with. If I was starting over I'd buy the kit lens and a 430EX flash.... and probably a 50mm 1.8 or a 85mm 1.8 if I could afford it.

[adam75south]

If you aren't planning on shooting sports or low light stuff, the 30d or XSi should be fine options.

the 30d is actually a great low light and sports camera. i wouldn't use it to shoot professional sports, but for your every day stuff, and depending on the lens, the 30d is more than good. and don't forget 5fps is pretty good.

i think the 40d's AF system is sooo good that the 30d gets a bad rap.

this isn't the best shot in the world, but i think it shows the 30d's AF works very well in a dimly lit gym.
shot with 30d and 70-200mm f/2.8 IS @ 140mm ISO 3200 f/2.8 1/250s single point AF. i think i used center point AF on this one.
http://adammedders.smugmug.com/photos/345968105_VMnzx-L.jpg

[Rhys]

the 30d is actually a great low light and sports camera. i wouldn't use it to shoot professional sports, but for your every day stuff, and depending on the lens, the 30d is more than good. and don't forget 5fps is pretty good.

i think the 40d's AF system is sooo good that the 30d gets a bad rap.

this isn't the best shot in the world, but i think it shows the 30d's AF works very well in a dimly lit gym.
shot with 30d and 70-200mm f/2.8 IS @ 140mm ISO 3200 f/2.8 1/250s single point AF. i think i used center point AF on this one.
http://adammedders.smugmug.com/photos/345968105_VMnzx-L.jpg

People said the 300D AF was good then they bought the XT and said the AF on the 300D sucked. Then they bought the XTi and immediately the XT sucked. Then they got the XSi and immediately the XTi sucked.

Similarly people bought the 10D and said the AF was good. Then they got the 20D andthe AF on the 10D immediately sucked. Then they got the 30D and the AF on the 20D sucked. Then they got the 40D and immediately the AF on the 30D sucked....

Do you spot a trend - people rubbish earlier generations of cameras in order (i presume) to justify their expendature on a more expensive camera. To be quite honest, I see no worthwhile difference between the XT, XTi, XS and XSi just as I see no worthwhile difference between the 20D, 30D and 40D. The extra megapixels makes such a miniscule difference that it's not worth mentioning. The dust removal system is insignificant as often it doesn't work and the traditional blower frequently works far better.

Aside from the controls I see no difference between any of the top SLR cameras. In image quality there is zero difference also.

I have no plans to get any new cameras. Mine work just fine. If one failed then I would get a replacement but the only reason I have two is because I have a photography business.

[Mark_48]

the replies have been very helpful. thanks to everyone!

Even though its for vacations 'for now' i hate to use the term 'snapshots' because like i said, i do put thought into my photos and use full manual functions. So even though this is my first slr, its not like i'm a complete noob who will be stuck in P mode the whole time.

From this statement I'd say go for a 30D or 40D, just control-wise you'll be much happier.

[jayfixit]

From this statement I'd say go for a 30D or 40D, just control-wise you'll be much happier.

I'd have to disagree. As an XTi user, I'm in manual mode 95% of the time. Otherwise it's Av, or Tv. I find changing shutter speed, aperture, focus points are very quick and easy, while keeping your eye in the viewfinder. Plus, you can't beat the light weight on a vacation.

But, hold both cameras, and see which one you like. I prefer a smaller camera, and I have large hands.

[GoneTomorrow]

I'd have to disagree. As an XTi user, I'm in manual mode 95% of the time. Otherwise it's Av, or Tv. I find changing shutter speed, aperture, focus points are very quick and easy, while keeping your eye in the viewfinder. Plus, you can't beat the light weight on a vacation.

But, hold both cameras, and see which one you like. I prefer a smaller camera, and I have large hands.

That's the problem with the XTi, you can't always keep your eye in the viewfinder, because it doesn't display the ISO setting in the viewfinder, but the 40D does (I had to memorize how many clicks of the button took me to a certain ISO and hope it was in fact the intended ISO, but usually I just looked at the LCD). And weight/size wise, their not that drastically different, not like the difference between the XTi and a compact point-and-shoot. The XTi and the 40D still occupy roughly the same space in my bag. Where the heavier weight and size does matter (for me anyhow), is for large lenses (better balance) and the buttons are more spaced (and there are fewer) making hitting the wrong button less likely, and for some strange reason, I can hold the larger 40D body much steadier in hand held shots than I could with the XTi.

[bruuen]

so many choices :rolleyes: I think I may place my focus on a used 30d, unless i can get a steal of a deal on a xsi or 40d. even though it wasn't even a consideration for myself, the 50d doesn't look like much of an upgrade over the 40d. I think the only time i can see myself upgrading is when the 50d's successor comes out which will most likely include the HD video. and hopefully some other improvements.

I won't bother bringing the lens discussions to the forfront, becuase in the $300-600 lens range, for every ten glowing reviews, someone will give there 2cents not to get it, just to drive you in circles. Obviously who doesn't want to own only L lens' but its just not practical, and at some point you just have so settle, there obviously is no walkabout lens in this range that will make everyone happy, and i'll just have to do my best to find the one that will hopefully best satisfy my needs. Thanks again to everyones contributions in this thread, its been very helpful.

[Csae]

I'd get the 50D over the 40D anyday.

The price difference for new is about 200$, and you score micro af, better lcd and a bigger iso range, not to mention sraws. Hell, i'd give 200$ alone if i could get MicroAF on my 5D:(

[Rhys]

I would buy a 20D new if they were still available new and a low price. The camera used means diddly squat. The photographer is what matters.

[adam75south]

the ONLY reason i say 40d over 30d is you can check the shutter actuations. with a used 30d you have no idea what you're taking on. i feel sorry for the guy that got my 30d from me. i never mentioned actuations and i really have no idea how many taken, i just know it was a lot.
here's the program
http://astrojargon.net/40dshuttercount.aspx
from the faq
0) I have a 1D*/5D/10D/20D/30D/50D/300D/350D/400D/450D/1000D. Will the software work with it?
This works on any of the Canon DIGIC III/IV DSLRs except the 1D* series. This means it will work for the 40D, the 50D, the 450D, and the 1000D. I'm still not sure about the 5DMkII, as I'm getting conflicting reports. If you have one, please give it a shot and let me know. Thanks!(BTW, so far it works on my 5dII)

It will not work on the 1D*, 5D, 10D, 20D, 30D, 300D, 350D, and 400D. It's not that I have anything against the owners of those cameras, but simply that the Canon SDK does not support retrieving the shutter count for them.

[zmikers]

hold both cameras, and see which one you like.

^^^^^This right here^^^^^ is great advice. Get your hands on the cameras, maybe even rent them for the weekend. Don't just hold them up to your eye, but play with the controls for a bit. You'll know what feels better in your hands.

The only reason why I'm missing the wheel on the back of my xti is because I upgraded from a film canon 30. If you have never had the wheel control you may not miss it, but I do find it much more ergonomic.

[Rhys]

I came from Nikon Manual focus and missed initially the aperture ring. I prefer the aperture dial of the 30D rather than the funky button+dial of the XT. It just seems weird not being about to control shutter and aperture simultaneously.