Story time: A recent trip to the camera store ...

[DonSchap]

So, like a good little photographic soldier, I headed off to Calumet Photographic to pick up a Hoya ø67mm CP for the T28-75mm. As I’m standing there, in waltzes a “newbie” holding a Canon EOS XSi in his hand and an EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens, asking the sales guy for his opinion on a new 50mm f/1.8 (not in stock) or f/1.4 lens for his camera, as he’s getting terrible results, INDOORs, with the zoom. :rolleyes: (This may be one of the most "typical" situations we all see.)

It seemed like a tutorial opportunity if ever I had dreamed one up. I watched as the sales guy hemmed and hawed, obviously nowhere near ready or willing to help this young man learn the fine art, but more than ready to sell lenses to him. I debated my position, (heh heh, being just a novice myself …) but, I interrupted him and proposed a couple pointed observations, based on what I was hearing.

"You say you are disappointed with the no-flash result from your Canon XSi and this “IS” lens, eh?" Answer: Yes. (Explain lighting/stability problems with low-cost lenses)

"You are using ISO-1600, are you not?" A: Why, yes. (Explain high-ISO issues and poor image quality)

"You want a 50mm f/1.4 to solve your low light issues?" A: Yes (Explain focus issues with shallow depth of field at apertures wider than f/2.8)

Man, instantly, there was a thirty-minute to one-hour conversation if ever I saw one and I was wondering where my ol' buddy Sean was, to help out. I did my best to try and wrap up these issues … and explained the problem with using f/4 lenses, indoors, without extremely bright lighting. I then explained the severe DOF issue you tend to get when aperture is set below f/2.8. I also explained that 99% of all zooms do not go below f/2.8 aperture. So … buying a 50mm lens would only partial solve the problem of taking “group” photos in less than optimum lighting. Single subjects, it's fine. You would successfully sacrifice the proper focus to get the extra light. But in a group of three or more, depending on orientation, of course ... you are going to lose at least one, perhaps two, in the shot to O-O-F (out-of-focus).

Man, the poor kid's eyes were rolling. This is precisely why buying a DSLR, without some kind of training, could really be a mistake. It would take him months of experimentation to figure a lot of this out … and perhaps some of it … he'd never figure out.

I was kind of in a rush (the dog was in the truck), so I bid him good luck and left him to the mercy of the sales guy. I’m glad I do not work in these stores, because I’d be too damn busy discussing all this stuff than able to make a good sale. It’s hard dealing with "newbies" and explain what you love to do. Obviously, to anyone following the forum, you can see with all the flack I am taking in DLSR Chat the idea of an “INFO” button. Here’s was a guy, obviously new to the deal … and the time it would take to teach him ranges in weeks to months, not one 30-minute trip to the store. Can imagine going to “Best Buy” and seeking knowledge. -Buzz!-

Put what you can IN THE CAMERA, itself. They (the manufacturer's) can easily do it. On a more advanced level, you could even have an analysis program, much like “Intelligent Preview” and “AUTO”, working together, to help the user understand where improvements could be made. A lop-sided discussion between the camera and himself … working out solutions with whatever piece-o-*#$@ lens he pops on the camera body.

"Newbies" are not going to appreciate the difference between the crapo "kit lens" and a better quality optic until someone 'splains it to them. It'd be kind of cool to produce an "in-store" TRAIL IMAGE CF CARD ...a small one, that has side-by-side images they can review in the camera and at home, using all the different lenses with an identical subject ... demonstrating the advantages of each. Design it for each camera model and see how it plays. You could have only done that with a print book, years ago ... but with digital ... it is instantaneous and best of all, "in-camera."

Oh jeez, there I go again ... it hurts to think like this ... :eek::(:p

[laydros]

Much of what I read before buying said that the 18-55 IS on the Canon's now is actually a decent lens. It's not L glass, but sounds like it is miles better than the non-IS 18-55 they put on the XT/XTi and before.

One of my goals upon first getting my camera was sitting in family/friends gatherings, and capturing candid shots of others. I'm still disappointed in my ability to do that, and hope a combination of the Tamron 17-50 and the MinO 50mm 1.7 will get more of those shots for me.

However I've started to learn a lot more about times that, unfortunately, the shot just isn't possible.

The best retail help I got was from a store manager at a Wolf camera. I told him I was thinking about getting either the A300, or D60, or XSi, and then adding a 50mm prime for low light. He said if taking pictures of my daughter was my main concern, then I could get away with flash. That way I kept the whole range of the kit lens, and could still take indoor photos. For times I can use flash, a little bounce has been very useful.

I think maybe that guy should pick up the 24-70 f/2.8 L and the 50mm f/1.2. Might help a little. And to save him a few bucks the Tamron 70-200 f/2.8 maybe?

[dr4gon]

Good story. Many of us on here though are like that guy you ran into. Bought a new DSLR and don't really know how to use it. No formal training, maybe a book or two, and just hands on experience. It's all in the learning process. He will just have to learn for himself the limitations and advantages of good glass.

[GotToyota?]

I feel that digital cameras have spoiled many people into thinking that they can just so buy a DSLR and instantly have these wonderful photos produced, when in fact it takes months (even years) to get the basics down to learn what works and what doesn't.

If he really wants to take good pictures, he will learn on his own. I took the beginners photo class last semester using film and learning the old fashioned way what it takes to produce a good photo, and I've just bought my own DSLR taking what I've learned with me to take pictures with the new camera. I'm also taking a digital photo class this upcoming semester to learn even more about the basics of photography as well as post-processing, printing, etc.

-Matt

[sparkie1263]

Should have told him to get a Sony and gave him a link to this site.LOL

Frank

[dr4gon]

I feel that digital cameras have spoiled many people into thinking that they can just so buy a DSLR and instantly have these wonderful photos produced, when in fact it takes months (even years) to get the basics down to learn what works and what doesn't.

If he really wants to take good pictures, he will learn on his own. I took the beginners photo class last semester using film and learning the old fashioned way what it takes to produce a good photo, and I've just bought my own DSLR taking what I've learned with me to take pictures with the new camera. I'm also taking a digital photo class this upcoming semester to learn even more about the basics of photography as well as post-processing, printing, etc.

-Matt

Sort of what I expected in some respects. But I've come to see that it really is not as easy as it looks and takes a LOT of time working on the art of photography.


Should have told him to get a Sony and gave him a link to this site.LOL

Frank

LOL, yeah he should've traded up for a Sony.

[Peekayoh]

Way to goToyota. Very sensible to take a course and sensible to recognise that you need to.
As Don pointed out, there's an awful lot to learn and it won't happen overnight. I've been at this for years and I can still learn (especially with this newfangled digital stuff).
Would you believe my first camera was a Box Brownie in the sixties, followed by a Yashica rangefinder working up to a top of the range Minolta 9000 in the eighties. Lots of learning and lots of fun.

[ShaunZ]

LOL.. love the story Don.
I was "that guy in the store" just a few months ago. I can totally relate to all that.
Even after 5 months with my camera I still don't have a clue what I'm doing half the time.
I've resorted to reading books now, but finding quality books in my local library has been a mission too. I've got to say that websites like this one is really helpful as I get to compare ideas and listen to other peoples expereince.

You are not running a tutoring programme by any chance are you? :D

[dr4gon]

LOL.. love the story Don.
I was "that guy in the store" just a few months ago. I can totally relate to all that.
Even after 5 months with my camera I still don't have a clue what I'm doing half the time.
I've resorted to reading books now, but finding quality books in my local library has been a mission too. I've got to say that websites like this one is really helpful as I get to compare ideas and listen to other peoples expereince.

You are not running a tutoring programme by any chance are you? :D

Have you read vol 1 and 2 of Scott Kelby's digital photography books?

[DonSchap]

I noticed that the young man had a brand new camera, the EOS XSi. As I examined his Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens (I had never seen the "new" one, up until then. My own experiences were only with the original version <non-IS>, back 2005. It got shelved pretty quick in favor of the TAMRON AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF)), I realized that he might be able to get by if he did several things differently, but guys ... I don't have all day to explain stuff like that to Canon users. I figure, you pick your poison ... and he can go to the Canon forum and fend for himself. I'm not getting paid for my time, either, unlike that guy behind the counter.

I mean, screwing around with you guys on here is one thing ... when it comes to real time stuff ... as our shameless Governor has been so quick to point out, it's "pay to play, Pal!" Especially with non-SONY camera toters. Like I said, I could have spent a couple hours explaining and demonstrating different results to further his understanding, but I kept looking at his camera and shaking my noggin'. Too much work. I bought my SONY to avoid these kind of problems. I had to sell all my Canon crap to pay for it and make the complete migration. I had a lot more going on than just a camera and a "kit" lens.

I mean a 50mm f/1.4 on a SONY ... has Image Stability. On a Canon, it's got squat! You are probably right, I should have argued that he change brands before he got dug in by the cost of glass ... but, as I have found out on this FORUM, you cannot save those who do not want to listen (a lesson from ol' Noah, by God!). Would he have made the change? I doubt it. He bought his choice of camera for a reason ... I respect that (not really, but the hell with it) and I am just not going to go through a song & dance to get him to convert. Someone, several months ago, should have successfully done that when he was initially shopping for a rig ... but, he wound up with a low-end Canon and a "kit". Live with it and learn! :rolleyes:

If I sound bitter, I am not. Unlike our upcoming President, I just get tired of repeating myself. The message should be clear enough ... there is a lot to be said for "in-the-body-stabilization", PRIME lenses, low light and the fact that every single lens you mount enjoys the use of it. If you are too thick to appreciate that fact ... what can a I say? "See ya on the Dark Side", I guess. Oh yeah, "and bring a flash."

Welcome to the SONY DSLR forum ... where it is supposed to be fun, not more work.

[seanhoxx]

O.K. Don, so we forget the production and marketing of custom made edged weapons with hand mixed and forged metals. Instead new project! a set of CD tutorials for the new DSLR owner, CD one functions and use of the DSLR what the buttons and settings mine and do, CD 2 all about lenses use and limitations, CD 3 why does this picture look like this, how to fix, or be able to do it again, use photos with shallow DOF, high ISO noise, etc.
And what about this on the camera like you said INFO button make it a setting so that the camera would pick up incompatiable settings, explain why, and what effects could be caused, make suggestions to change settings and what it would do. wouldn't have to be in great detail.
My own story, before I bought I researched and read online for 3 to 4 months, narrowed my brand and model down and did detailed research, went to a few camera shops, got little to no help, or out right WRONG info. My favorites one place a small electronics store that had Nikon and Canon DSLR's and other brand P&S cameras asked me if I was sure Sony made a DSLR !! another place I explained my interest in Sony, and that I was debating between the 300 or the 700, I went over my interests and desires, what I planned on shooting, what kinds of things I wanted to be able to do etc. With out batting a eye the owner moved down the counter pulled out a Nikon D80 and said this is really the camera you want, and THE ONLY ONE that can do what you want!!! I left.
Then I came here and read and read and started asking questions, all before I bought my camera or lenses. The only lens I wish I hadn't of bought is the well used Minolta 70-210 3.5, the only lens I didn't ask about on here before buying LOL!

[DonSchap]

Sean, you could always pass it along to one of the less-blessed members, who are still deciding ... and just get it out of your bag. I thought about giving my "kit lens" away, then thought better of it as I decided not to impose its inherently lousy IQ on another human being. I am nothing if not merciful. :D

BTW: Got a lens case for the AT-X 840. They did not have a LowePro LC3 in stock, so it wound up being a size "L" lens case from Calumet. The lens fits in it with about two inches to spare, at the top (not enough room for a PRIME), but it is designed very much like the LowePro, at about half the price. So, the last lens, she is bagged. LOL

[Elisha]

the xsi is not an easy camera to work with and is pretty small compared to the alphas. My pinky had absolutely no place to go.
Anyway long story short, my cousin wanted to get a dslr for xmas and asked me my opinion. I pimped the alpha for it's IS and told him the pros and cons of each brand. So while I was away on vacation, he buys the a300 and barely used it. He scoured the forums and was told that canikon had a bigger following and Sony was nowhere on par with performance. So he returned it without giving it a fair chance.

[DonSchap]

Elisha, I suggest you shoot his socks off and make him rethink his choice.

Everytime I demonstrate what I can do with a SONY ... a 50mm f/1.4 prime ... SSS ... and at 1/15 second ... versus the same prime lens on a Nikon or Canon ... it makes for a very short argument. No matter how steady a person thinks they are ... 1/15 of a second usually brings out the worst in them. The resulting images are almost always an eye-opener.

If there is any question, even if you only have your SONY Alpha with you:

Put your 50mm on the camera
Set the aperture to its widest setting
Turn off the "SSS"
Hand it to the non-believer and have them take their "steadiest" shot, handheld.
Turn "SSS" back to the "on" position.
Hand it to the non-believer, tell them to "just relax" and have them take the same shot, handheld.
With the shot magnifier button, examine both shots on the camera's LCD, flipping back and forth.


The proof should be there. That "SSS" shot should look quite sharp and clear. Now, do the same thing with a PRIME on a Nikon or Canon. Oh yeah ... no "SSS" ... sorry. ;)

Just throwing up the camera and doing just that ... (100% crop)

SSS off (1/15 sec)
43429

SSS on (1/15 sec)
43430

Image shake tends to look like bad focus, but it is not, because everything is blurry, unlike bad focus, where there is some point in the image that usually is in focus, just not your "desired subject."

[seanhoxx]

So Don does the AT-X 840 in the L case ride on the outside of the velocity bag or does it fit inside? I am still pondering the velocity 9x or maybe even the new 10x and lowepro cases mounted on the outside for the big guns.
The Minolta 70-210 3.5 works fine, nothing amazing in the colors not the legendary (?) performance of the beercan. It is the lens creep I swear at 70mm I can blow hard while holding the camera and extend it to 200mm LOL I may willing to sell it at a VERY reasonable price, maybe I will try and shoot some shots this week with it and post them.

[DonSchap]

It does BOTH! (in or out)

[laydros]

I don't think there is anything _wrong_ with using a Canon or Nikon system. I think I could just as easily be on one of those systems.

It did make me a little smug to pick up a Beercan for $100 though. The Canon 70-200 f/4 with IS (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-70-200mm-Lens-Digital-Cameras/dp/B000I1X3W8) runs north of $900 (although that is new). And yes, I know that the beercan isn't Canon L quality, and probably doesn't focus as quickly, but for an amateur on a budget, its feasible, where the Canon will not be.

[DonSchap]

There's nothing wrong with your economics, Jason.

[laydros]

the xsi is not an easy camera to work with and is pretty small compared to the alphas. My pinky had absolutely no place to go.
Anyway long story short, my cousin wanted to get a dslr for xmas and asked me my opinion. I pimped the alpha for it's IS and told him the pros and cons of each brand. So while I was away on vacation, he buys the a300 and barely used it. He scoured the forums and was told that canikon had a bigger following and Sony was nowhere on par with performance. So he returned it without giving it a fair chance.

When I was going over pros and cons of the D60/D80, XS/XSi and the a200/a300 one major benefit of the Sony system to me was the size of the grip. The Sony felt much better in my larger than average hands.

[Elisha]

@Don, he's already having issues when taking indoor shots.
he bought the budget F1.8 50mm prime and can't take sharp images with it indoors.
i was already showing him what my prime can do at 1/15th and so on but it is hard to convince someone who has been told Canikon is better for image quality.

but IS aside, the XSi is a puny camera and feels like it is made out of cheap plastic and the controls are not as easily accessible.

[DonSchap]

My motivations to go with SONY came from, I guess three different aspects ...

I already had several relatively nice lenses from my "Minolta" days
Canon not putting stability in the camera body. I wrote to them and asked them to do so, but they chose to ignore my advice. Hey, I'm a paying customer ... and it's my money ... adios!
Buying Canon lenses with IS in them is unbelievably expensive, for something I get "for free" in my camera body! Any lens I "strap on" ... shake shake shake ... gone!


So, SONY gets the nod and here we is! Makes perfect sense to me. :rolleyes:

[Elisha]

i was never a Sony fan but was always a Minolta fan so here is is!
plus IS is icing on the cake.

[DonSchap]

I tell you, Elisha ... when Minolta folded ... I was crushed. I was just getting ready to make the move to digital ... and suddenly, they were gone (circa 2005). Understanding SONY had bought the entire Camera Division and the "A"mount was interesting, but I needed a camera system and like ... right now. So, I up and bought the EOS 20D, the EOS-3 and several TAMRON Canon-mount lenses. Without the SONY A100 in the picture, so to speak, to contrast it with, it was what it was. Over and over, I kept running into issues where IS was a very nice to have commodity, but the lens offerings were, as I stated, extremely pricey. Plus, not a single PRIME lens, under 200mm, had IS in it. So, in a way, it was "half-assed with half-fast glass. (f/2.8 at best)"

Anyway, in July 2006, the A100 was released and while not a perfect camera ... it was pretty good with my existing glass. I did a lot of comparison shoots and found the "built-in-the body-stability" to be just the answer.

When the A700 was released, it was, in my estimation, the "final solution." It simply had nearly EVERYTHING you could want in a camera body. Oh sure, they have developed some other novel features since, but when it comes to having all the basics ... YES SIR!

So, sticking with Minolta/SONY has been the right choice. Once you have the A700 and the glass ... you are ready to rock with the big boys. Let them know you have arrived! :D

[dr4gon]

I noticed that the young man had a brand new camera, the EOS XSi. As I examined his Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens (I had never seen the "new" one, up until then. My own experiences were only with the original version <non-IS>, back 2005. It got shelved pretty quick in favor of the TAMRON AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF)), I realized that he might be able to get by if he did several things differently, but guys ... I don't have all day to explain stuff like that to Canon users. I figure, you pick your poison ... and he can go to the Canon forum and fend for himself. I'm not getting paid for my time, either, unlike that guy behind the counter.

I mean, screwing around with you guys on here is one thing ... when it comes to real time stuff ... as our shameless Governor has been so quick to point out, it's "pay to play, Pal!" Especially with non-SONY camera toters. Like I said, I could have spent a couple hours explaining and demonstrating different results to further his understanding, but I kept looking at his camera and shaking my noggin'. Too much work. I bought my SONY to avoid these kind of problems. I had to sell all my Canon crap to pay for it and make the complete migration. I had a lot more going on than just a camera and a "kit" lens.

I mean a 50mm f/1.4 on a SONY ... has Image Stability. On a Canon, it's got squat! You are probably right, I should have argued that he change brands before he got dug in by the cost of glass ... but, as I have found out on this FORUM, you cannot save those who do not want to listen (a lesson from ol' Noah, by God!). Would he have made the change? I doubt it. He bought his choice of camera for a reason ... I respect that (not really, but the hell with it) and I am just not going to go through a song & dance to get him to convert. Someone, several months ago, should have successfully done that when he was initially shopping for a rig ... but, he wound up with a low-end Canon and a "kit". Live with it and learn! :rolleyes:

If I sound bitter, I am not. Unlike our upcoming President, I just get tired of repeating myself. The message should be clear enough ... there is a lot to be said for "in-the-body-stabilization", PRIME lenses, low light and the fact that every single lens you mount enjoys the use of it. If you are too thick to appreciate that fact ... what can a I say? "See ya on the Dark Side", I guess. Oh yeah, "and bring a flash."

Welcome to the SONY DSLR forum ... where it is supposed to be fun, not more work.

That's HYSTERICAL! ROFLLLLL! eh, you did what you could


the xsi is not an easy camera to work with and is pretty small compared to the alphas. My pinky had absolutely no place to go.
Anyway long story short, my cousin wanted to get a dslr for xmas and asked me my opinion. I pimped the alpha for it's IS and told him the pros and cons of each brand. So while I was away on vacation, he buys the a300 and barely used it. He scoured the forums and was told that canikon had a bigger following and Sony was nowhere on par with performance. So he returned it without giving it a fair chance.

You on the other hand, how could you!?! lol... that's a really sad story. maybe your cousin will come around. It really make sense for family members to get one system. That way you can share lenses, accessories, and what not when you're together. It just makes life simpler that way. Oh well, your cousins loss not getting to share all your goodies!


Elisha, I suggest you shoot his socks off and make him rethink his choice.

Everytime I demonstrate what I can do with a SONY ... a 50mm f/1.4 prime ... SSS ... and at 1/15 second ... versus the same prime lens on a Nikon or Canon ... it makes for a very short argument. No matter how steady a person thinks they are ... 1/15 of a second usually brings out the worst in them. The resulting images are almost always an eye-opener.

If there is any question, even if you only have your SONY Alpha with you:

Put your 50mm on the camera
Set the aperture to its widest setting
Turn off the "SSS"
Hand it to the non-believer and have them take their "steadiest" shot, handheld.
Turn "SSS" back to the "on" position.
Hand it to the non-believer, tell them to "just relax" and have them take the same shot, handheld.
With the shot magnifier button, examine both shots on the camera's LCD, flipping back and forth.


The proof should be there. That "SSS" shot should look quite sharp and clear. Now, do the same thing with a PRIME on a Nikon or Canon. Oh yeah ... no "SSS" ... sorry. ;)

Just throwing up the camera and doing just that ... (100% crop)

SSS off (1/15 sec)
43429

SSS on (1/15 sec)
43430

Image shake tends to look like bad focus, but it is not, because everything is blurry, unlike bad focus, where there is some point in the image that usually is in focus, just not your "desired subject."

I can actually do 1/8 or I've even done 1/6 sec hand held with SSS with the 50mm/1.7. It's harder for me to do with the 17-50mm, but 1/10 is entirely doable. Seems with a lighter lens and me gripping the RC2 plate with my left hand under neath, I can get a pretty damn steady shot. Let me see if I can get an example.

[Elisha]

he's already gotten the XSi so it's hard for me to tell him he made a bad choice.
if i hadn't gotten the a300, i would have gotten the D80 myself.

i've actually done a 1/3 and many other slow shutter shots with my prime at ISO 1600 in a glow in the dark mini put place

[DonSchap]

I can actually do 1/8 or I've even done 1/6 sec hand held with SSS with the 50mm/1.7. It's harder for me to do with the 17-50mm, but 1/10 is entirely doable. Seems with a lighter lens and me gripping the RC2 plate with my left hand under neath, I can get a pretty damn steady shot. Let me see if I can get an example.

@ Dr4gon: I was not trying to set a record, but merely demonstrate the ease with which you can shoot the SONY with SSS and get something that looks ... well, sharp.

Most people shake like a leaf in the breeze when you hand them your camera. They have no concept of proper breathing when taking an image or other handling techniques -> Just up to the face and bang! The SONY caters to that kind of crappy handhold and delivers the goods, despite the lens. Of course, longer lenses are far more sensitive or less forgiving (apparently) to movement. We all can argue that, too ... but why? Just dump the non-SSS body and go with a "clear" choice. :D

[dr4gon]

Provided are 1:1 crops of the following:


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3413/3178968110_0288cb3c93_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr4gon/3178968110/)

(1/15 sec, see below)



Just for fun, Here goes: (caption under image)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3357/3178947636_0845e13fac_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr4gon/3178947636/)

1/4 sec, elbows leaning on table, not really trying here SSS on


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3431/3178947606_e5ae806dd0_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr4gon/3178947606/)

1/8 sec standing, SSS on, I'm bad at standing


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3395/3178947576_010bea0bbb_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr4gon/3178947576/)

1/6 sitting upright, SSS on


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3433/3178111185_00fbcf5444_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr4gon/3178111185/)
1/10 sitting upright, SSS off


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/3178111077_398d05d951_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr4gon/3178111077/)

1/10, sitting upright SSS on, not much a difference


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3309/3178947498_130c7367eb_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr4gon/3178947498/)

1/8 sitting upright, SSS on



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3178111035_0ea28ce251_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dr4gon/3178111035/)

1/15, sitting upright, sss on

SSS does help get more clear shots! These are my best, some didin't turn out too hot under 1/10 lol...

Looking more at these on the forum, they look slightly better on the computer in lightroom (RAW). Also zooming out (not 1:1) looks significantly better and you cannot tell there was any shake or blur at all. ;)

[seanhoxx]

Scrolls through the above shots and wonders dr4gon how BIG are your hands! what do you do for a living? does it involve having huge grip strength? are you focused on your inner chi, how much Yoga does it take to center yourself LOL. Do you also 'shoot' dr4gon? anyway nice work.
makes note to lay off the coffee.

[dr4gon]

Scrolls through the above shots and wonders dr4gon how BIG are your hands! what do you do for a living? does it involve having huge grip strength? are you focused on your inner chi, how much Yoga does it take to center yourself LOL. Do you also 'shoot' dr4gon? anyway nice work.
makes note to lay off the coffee.

I just try to keep the little square on a single target and just focus on keeping it there during the duration of the shot. It does help to practice a little bit. I remember Don came up with an exercise to improve on shooting at low shutter speeds, that seemed to help a bit, but I really just try to keep steady and shoot. Like I said, they don't always come out this good. Usually when I'm excited about what I'm shooting it's much harder for me to be calm and focus lol. My feet get all wobbly and I start to sway.

Try sitting down and doing a few at 1/13, SSS on @ 50mm and go from there (slowly increase shutter speed to 1/8).

[ShaunZ]

Have you read vol 1 and 2 of Scott Kelby's digital photography books?

Nah I haven't read that one, but I'll have a look this weekend. Cheers dr4gon :)

[dr4gon]

Nah I haven't read that one, but I'll have a look this weekend. Cheers dr4gon :)

I gotthose two at the library and they are by far my favorites. Read each in a day because they were so entertaining and easy to read (did skim a bit about the advanced portrait section regarding multiple studio lighting setups and stuff like that).

[TenD]

My motivations to go with SONY came from, I guess three different aspects ...

I already had several relatively nice lenses from my "Minolta" days
Which you have declared junk several times on this forum. When people say they are going to buy the decent 35-70 you tell them to go out an buy a Tamron...


Canon not putting stability in the camera body. I wrote to them and asked them to do so, but they chose to ignore my advice. Hey, I'm a paying customer ... and it's my money ... adios!
Good for you, keep your 1.5 stop improvement. Me, I'll strap on a lens with over 2x the stabilization ability, or if my subject is moving, I just up my ISO and still get the shot with half the noise if you tried the same...


Buying Canon lenses with IS in them is unbelievably expensive, for something I get "for free" in my camera body! Any lens I "strap on" ... shake shake shake ... gone!
Sony top quality glass without IS costs more than the equivalent Canon glass with IS...

[DonSchap]

Okay ... since you started ... let's go with one basic lens. The 50mm f/1.4

Place your little jewel on the EOS 50D ... and follow me. I will put my α700 to the test. We'll walk and talk for a while. Then, we shall come upon a really shady area ... and set for 1/15 sec. ISO 1600. DR+ adv. Set for f/1.4 and take an image of bloom (dist 18 inches), back up two-feet and do it again.

If you can hold your camera as steady as the α700 presentation, I will concede you are correct. Unfortunately, you won't be. You will need a SONY Alpha camera (or Pentax, or Olympus) to do this with a PRIME lens. "Handheld" has its limitations ... and you are a human, Ernest. The "walk", alone, will do you in.

Anyway ... it seems a little pointless debating the advantages of IS ... since a lot of people spent a lot of money to put it in lenses and bodies. The only problem is Canon hasn't gotten around to ALL their lenses, yet. Don't feel bad, Nikon hasn't either. SONY doesn't have to. That's my point. Enjoy!

BTW: Until they do get those lenses ready for you, don't get too "shook up" ... a new α700 is waiting for you at the local SONY Style store.

[Peekayoh]

This argument has little relevence for me as I plumped for Minolta a long time ago and have moved on to Sony as a natural progression.

If you look here http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a900-one-month.shtml this previous Canon Guy (I think) is pretty taken with the A900. He likes the anti shake and thinks the noise performance of the A900 is better than the Canon 5D MKII up to ISO 800. That's good news for me as I never shoot that high anyway.

[dr4gon]

yes, and to each their own, let's stop arguing about this already, no one's changing their system here.

[DonSchap]

Oh c'mon ... I almost have Ernest coming over to the "Dark Side." He needs only to release his fears ...

"Join me, 'TenD'. It is the only way."

43437

[Peekayoh]

I doubt that, Don. Ten'D (anyone) would need a much better reason to change Systems.

[DonSchap]

Okay, you're right, Peek ... I'll throw in the "kit lens", too. ;)

[seanhoxx]

Speaking of old Minolta, I retain and store everything, but thats another story. Back in 1998 I bought a set of Minolta binoculars 12X50's best set I have ever used or had, still use them to this day. anyway rummaged through my files and pulled the 'club minolta card out along with my Minolta warranty, good for 25 years on the binoculars. Wonder if it's still valid, but any way the optics were and are outstanding, I can remember thinking man this is why there lenses must be so good! anyway a little trip down memory lane

[TenD]

Oh c'mon ... I almost have Ernest coming over to the "Dark Side." He needs only to release his fears ...

Ernest would be pretty hard to woo to the Dark side, since he's an author who wrote "Fate is the Hunter" where the quote is taken from, and he's been dead for several years. Speaking of dark side, so you admit Sony is the Dark Side? I'll keep my IS in my lens where it benefits me about 3-4 stops according to tests. You can have your in body IS(which I admit is a good idea)which isn't nearly as effective as in lens IS.

I will set my camera to ISO expansion 3200 upping my SS to 1/30 which I am comfortable handholding in most situations. My ISO 3200 will still have less noise than your A700 at ISO 1600. You can't place arbitrary stipulations on taking the photo, you are using all of the capability of your camera, I should have the same privilege.

[DonSchap]

My friend ... you can do all you want ... put a PRIME on your camera ... and anti-handshake is all up to you. Better SOME than NONE!

Enjoy the day, the night ... and whatever else waltzes your way.

[laydros]

I shouldn't admit this, you guys may shun me forever but...

To be really honest, he makes a good point... sorry, but I'd take 2 stops better in ISO over 2 stops in IS anyday, it means instead of IS to steady my own personal shake, I have a faster shutter speed to freeze both my shake and any movement in my subjects.

We've said it before, Sony needs to fix the noise. If we could get the high ISO performance they see with the high end Nikons combined with in-body IS, then we would really have something to brag about.

Sony's hardware isn't inferior, but neither is Nikon or Canon or the 4/3 stuff, they all have some benefits.

[Elisha]

I vote for better high ISO performance as well. IS is nice and all but I would like some clean images at ISO 1600 in low light situations and confidence in ISO 3200 shots.

[DonSchap]

Well ... I vote for the "STOP TIME" function ... where you press the button and everything freezes ... you take your shot (at any ISO, Aperture, or Shutter-speed you would like ... get superior saturation) and then ... time resumes.

43444

But, then again ... I was hoping for a price reduction of the α900, too. Like that's ever going to happen! :rolleyes:

[dr4gon]

Well ... I vote for the "STOP TIME" function ... where you press the button and everything freezes ... you take your shot and ... time resumes.

43444

But, then again ... I was hoping for a price reduction of the α900, too. Like that's ever going to happen! :rolleyes:

Well, with current exchange rates, people have been getting it in the low $2k mark. of course, you forgo some warranty. (or you'll just have to ship it very far).

[Panda Bear]

Don, if someone can come close to perfecting that, I think it will market quite well, and solve a lot more problems than just those us photographers are facing!

We can always hope.
:D

[DonSchap]

Yeah, imagine ... your flying along at 600 mph, over the countryside ... you see a hellacious shot coming up, but the darn plane window is all scratched up ...

43445

so, you unbuckle your seat belt, take your camera up to the airplane front door ... press the "STOP TIME" button on your camera ... open the door, step out ... position, meter and snap your image (all at your leisure ... because time's not a wastin', as it were) ... then climb back in the airplane, secure the door ... hit the button, again, and resume your flight. I tell ya ... it has all kinds of possibilities, especially if you are photographing the lil' "Munchkins!" :D

[Peekayoh]

Speaking of old Minolta, I retain and store everything, but thats another story. Back in 1998 I bought a set of Minolta binoculars 12X50's best set I have ever used or had, still use them to this day. anyway rummaged through my files and pulled the 'club minolta card out along with my Minolta warranty, good for 25 years on the binoculars. Wonder if it's still valid, but any way the optics were and are outstanding, I can remember thinking man this is why there lenses must be so good! anyway a little trip down memory lane

My Missus uses a pair of Minolta 60x20 which fit easily into her handbag. They are brilliant.

[Peekayoh]

Just read thro' the rest of this post and you know what; the argument is pointless.
The fact is that no "System" is perfect and, even with unlimited budget, the choices are always going to be a compromise.
Having purchased my first DSLR in November and seeing as I only ever shot at max ISO400 with film, I'm very happy with my choice and don't yet miss the superior high ISO performance of the Canon. If I'd had a Canon film camera rather than Minolta I would surely now have a Canon and be equally happy.
The fact is that either camera produces superb results and we should simply get on with using them.

We also expect and deserve a better high ISO performance from Sony and I presume they are working on a solution as we "talk". Maybe every Sony user should e-mail them with their point of view. Can this be done from a web page?

Mind you, that means an upgrade, yet again.

[Elisha]

I'm pretty sure they can address some of it via a fw upgrade like v4 for the a700.

[dr4gon]

Man I just hope they have a v2 for the A300! We could sure use a time stop button....


....

well I'll take +/- 2-3EV at the least!

[Peekayoh]

I'm pretty sure they can address some of it via a fw upgrade like v4 for the a700.

Pretty sure they can't. We discussed this in an earlier thread and the general consensus was that Firmware wouldn't fix it and it was more likely a "sensor stack" and/or processor issue.

[Elisha]

Pretty sure they can't. We discussed this in an earlier thread and the general consensus was that Firmware wouldn't fix it and it was more likely a "sensor stack" and/or processor issue.

iirc the sensor used on the a2/300 is the same as the one used on couple of the Nikons. and the nikons that employ it have cleaner higher iso images. i believe this is all in the processing engine and the algorithms.
sony just needs to tweak the algorithms in their Bionz processor and this can be done via a fw update.
if the v4 update for the a700 can improve it's 1600 iso images, i'm sure a fw update can help the lower models. but whether or not Sony is going to bother doing so is a different question.
they did give the A100 updates as far as i can remember, but now Sony has more devices and new ones should be out by spring so hopefully they don't just focus on the higher end ones.

[Peekayoh]

If only it were that simple!
Don't be misled by the Nikon connection. Nikon have a different sensor stack and image processor.
The v4 firmware is not a big step in noise reduction but it does allow you turn it off.

[seanhoxx]

I would be willing to compromise with Sony how about a firmware update to give me one stop on light and one stop of IS for my 700? 2 would be great but one more is better then what we have now. Don I am pretty sure you need a special or maybe even spatial license before you can use the stop time feature. Also how about a update that would allow digital grids on the LCD review screen, you choose rule of thirds, X pattern, cross hairs, something like that?