My first dSLR - narrowed down to two. Can you help?

[woodcycl]

Budget: Maximum $1000 with a hopeful of $800 or so

Size: light to average weight/size of a dSLR

Features: dSLRs have ALL the features, so I'm good with the middle of the road to nice consumer level dSLR.

Megapixels: Doesn't really matter overall given how good most dSLR lenses are.

Zoom: I can buy a seperate lense if needed. But, up to 10x optical is desired in general.

Image Quality: This is 'upmost' importance -- 8 to 10

Manual Controls: Yes, with a dSLR

General Usage:
What will you generally use the camera for: Just about everything. Indoors and Outdoors. Day and Night. Low light and bright. General overall use.

Will you be making big prints of your photos or not?: Yes, occasionally but not to exceed 11x14 in most cases

Will you be shooting a lot of indoor photos or low light photos?: All the above.

Will you be shooting sports and/or action photos?: Not particularly, but the possibility does exist.

Miscellaneous

Are there particular brands you like or hate?: I have a liking to Nikon and Cannon as most of my experience is with these two brands.

Are there particular models you already have in mind?: Yes, Nikon D90 (above my price range actually but I LIKE it), Nikon D80 (my top pick so far, but now going on 2yrs old), and Canon EOS 450D Rebel XSi.

I like the idea of Image Stabilization and would like to be able to use an external flash when needed.

My Info
I've narrowed it down to two cameras overall: Nikon D80 and Canon EOS 450D Rebel XSi. This is based on a few days of extensive research and reviews online from sites such as this one and the other major DC sites.

I like the Nikon D80 for many reasons, but question whether or not I will wish I had gotten the D90 or the 450D given the D80's age.



Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian

[Screenclutter]

Is your budget for lenses and flash separate from the camera budget?

With dSLR lenses, most talk about the focal length in mm (millimeters). A '2x optical zoom' lens could be a 12-24mm lens or a 200-400mm lens, but if you look at the attached images, they are a wee bit different...


In the case of Nikon lenses, the closest thing to your '10x optical zoom' would be the AF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 G VR lens which goes for around $650.

[GoneTomorrow]

Budget: Maximum $1000 with a hopeful of $800 or so

Size: light to average weight/size of a dSLR

Features: dSLRs have ALL the features, so I'm good with the middle of the road to nice consumer level dSLR.

Megapixels: Doesn't really matter overall given how good most dSLR lenses are.

Zoom: I can buy a seperate lense if needed. But, up to 10x optical is desired in general.

Image Quality: This is 'upmost' importance -- 8 to 10

Manual Controls: Yes, with a dSLR

General Usage:
What will you generally use the camera for: Just about everything. Indoors and Outdoors. Day and Night. Low light and bright. General overall use.

Will you be making big prints of your photos or not?: Yes, occasionally but not to exceed 11x14 in most cases

Will you be shooting a lot of indoor photos or low light photos?: All the above.

Will you be shooting sports and/or action photos?: Not particularly, but the possibility does exist.

Miscellaneous

Are there particular brands you like or hate?: I have a liking to Nikon and Cannon as most of my experience is with these two brands.

Are there particular models you already have in mind?: Yes, Nikon D90 (above my price range actually but I LIKE it), Nikon D80 (my top pick so far, but now going on 2yrs old), and Canon EOS 450D Rebel XSi.

I like the idea of Image Stabilization and would like to be able to use an external flash when needed.

My Info
I've narrowed it down to two cameras overall: Nikon D80 and Canon EOS 450D Rebel XSi. This is based on a few days of extensive research and reviews online from sites such as this one and the other major DC sites.

I like the Nikon D80 for many reasons, but question whether or not I will wish I had gotten the D90 or the 450D given the D80's age.



Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian

They're both stellar cameras, but my vote goes to the 450D, an excellent high ISO noise performer, decent burst rate and features. Whatever you decide, be sure to actually go to a store and get your hands on these cameras.

[woodcycl]

Is your budget for lenses and flash separate from the camera budget?

With dSLR lenses, most talk about the focal length in mm (millimeters). A '2x optical zoom' lens could be a 12-24mm lens or a 200-400mm lens, but if you look at the attached images, they are a wee bit different...


In the case of Nikon lenses, the closest thing to your '10x optical zoom' would be the AF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 G VR lens which goes for around $650.

Thanks for the response. Yes and No. In other words, all i am needing initially is the lense that comes with the camera. Or, I could buy the body only and pick up a lense that can do most of what I want initially. I can then budget for whatever other lenses and accessories I need for down the road.

Speaking of lenses, what about one of these two ... one being a step above the other:

Okay:
Nikon 70-300mm f/4-5.6G AF Nikkor SLR Camera Lens
$143 at Amazon

Better:
Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom Nikkor Lens
$450 at Amazon

I understand it is the 'lense' that makes a camera overall and produces the quality of photos. But, after reading many reviews of side-by-side comparisons between the low to middle of the road lenses compared to the higher end lenses ... the results are difficult to see many times. This means for the average consumer using a dSLR, at least me, the low to med quality lenses are more than sufficient for my purposes.

Thoughts?

[raven15]

In this case at least you almost certainly want the latter of the two. The "VR" (vibration reduction) is very important, and will save you buying the cheap one first and the expensive one in a few months. If you are concerned about the price, the "ED-IF" (extra-low dispersion, don't know IF, internal focus?) and "AF-S" (fast, quiet autofocus) also have significance.

Now, coming to optical quality, it is something that is your own personal choice. It might not make sense to most people to pay thousands of dollars for lenses that offer a 20% improvement in sharpness. I would go one level higher than what I thought was good enough, because as you see more photographs your eye for noticing flaws improves.

[benp]

Have a think about what specific lenses you want to get and that may help you decide.

The main thing to choose is the focal length range you'll be using and how happy you are about changing lenses. For example, the 70-300 VR lens is good, but you can't leave it on the camera all the time unless you only ever shoot small/far-away things. If you get something like the 18-200 lens you can leave it on the camera all the time, but it's a bit more expensive and apparently has slightly poorer image quality. I don't know whether Canon has something comparable - so this is the kind of thing that can help you choose a camera.

I have to echo GoneTomorrow's advice about getting your hands on the cameras first. I was still leaning towards the 450D, despite Nikon having slightly better lenses for what I wanted to do, but the D80 felt a lot better.

Consider getting the D90, since it combines the advantages of both the cameras you're looking at, and throws in a movie mode. The D90 kit lens (18-105VR, 6x) seems pretty good too. I ended up getting this lens for my D80 last weekend. I haven't had much of a chance to test it, but the VR certainly works well, it focuses pretty quickly (and has manual override in AF mode), and the images seem decently sharp.

[K1W1]

Okay:
Nikon 70-300mm f/4-5.6G AF Nikkor SLR Camera Lens
$143 at Amazon


That's a rubbish lens don't waste your money.
Spend the extra on the 70-300VR which is highly regarded for it's price.

BTW. My vote goes for the D80 over the Canon. The overall Nikon system (Bodies, lenses, CLS) is IMO a better system at the consumer level particularly than the Canon offerings.

[woodcycl]

Thanks for all the input ... I have it narrowed down to the D80 now. But, I still cannot help but think about how to get my hands on the D90 ... and just be more broke in the meantime.

Which lens would fit my purposes better:

(1) 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX Nikkor Zoom Lens (stock on the D90)

(2) Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom Nikkor Lens

I assume the 70-300mm will provide better zoom capability. But, what about overall quality and satisfaction over time? And, what about "general use" ... can I leave either on the camera full time and use it for almost anything?

[Ray Schnoor]

Which lens would fit my purposes better:

(1) 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX Nikkor Zoom Lens (stock on the D90)

(2) Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom Nikkor Lens

I assume the 70-300mm will provide better zoom capability. But, what about overall quality and satisfaction over time? And, what about "general use" ... can I leave either on the camera full time and use it for almost anything?
For your uses?? Those are 2 completely different types of zooms. When you say that the 70-300 will have better zoom capability, that is incorrect. It will have better telephoto capability, but it loses in the zoom race by ~4.3x(300/70) to ~5.8x(105/18)

You state that you will be taking photos indoors. The 18-105 will be a better indoors lens, meaning you will be able to take photos of people/things indoors without having back away from your subject great distances. You are not specific enough with your other uses to be of any help.

As for general use, the 18-105 would win in this category for 99% of all people.

Ray.

[Turn]

are you going to use flash

those lenses aren't exactly low light material.

[woodcycl]

Ray,

Yes, I understand what you have described now that I think about it. I am new to the dslr world and picking it up surely, but slowly.

In your opinion, for general use, which of these would fit my needs better?

1) 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX Nikkor Zoom Lens (stock on the D90)
2) Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor (stock on the D80)

I am torn between spending the extra $ on the D90 body ... but then choosing the best overall lens is my next dilema.

[woodcycl]

are you going to use flash

those lenses aren't exactly low light material.

Good question ... yes, I'm sure a flash would be a good idea when the camera is used for our indoor wedding on 12/31. Which leads me to another question ...

All i have in regard to a external flash is the inexpensive Vivitar Auto Thyristor 2800 (you can see it here: http://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-2800-Automatic-Electronic-Flash/dp/B00004TVSQ). Will this suffice for now or would it be a good idea to obtain a better inexpensive external flash for an indoor wedding using, most likely the 18-105 (or maybe the 18-200 VR lens??) lenses? If a better one, what would be considered a good budget external flash for the D80 (or D90)?

[rdump]

For a first DSLR, I'd consider an 18-105 VR and a 70-300 VR on a D40 body. The only useful features I think you'd miss over the D90 body on a first DSLR are the dust shaker on the sensor, and the auto-bracketing for HDR if you get into that. I don't think those are worth the 3x D90 price premium.

[Ray Schnoor]

Ray,

Yes, I understand what you have described now that I think about it. I am new to the dslr world and picking it up surely, but slowly.

In your opinion, for general use, which of these would fit my needs better?

1) 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX Nikkor Zoom Lens (stock on the D90)
2) Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor (stock on the D80)

I am torn between spending the extra $ on the D90 body ... but then choosing the best overall lens is my next dilema.
Choosing between these 2 lenses, you will get a considerable discount if you buy the kit lens with the camera. Depending which camera you get may be the deciding factor about which lens you get.

D80 w/18-135 $715 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/449066-REG/Nikon_9405_D80_SLR_Digital_Camera.html)

D80 w/18-105 $623 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/449061-REG/Nikon_25412_D80_SLR_Digital_Camera.html)+ $325 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/582443-USA/Nikon_2179_18_105mm_f_3_5_5_6G_ED_VR.html)

D90 w 18-105 $1140 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/580422-REG/Nikon_25448_D90_SLR_Digital_Camera.html)

D90 w 18-135 $880 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/580241-REG/Nikon_25446_D90_SLR_Digital_Camera.html)+ $32 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/449087-USA/Nikon_2162_18_135mm_f_3_5_5_6_ED_IF_AF_S.html)0

Ray.

[woodcycl]

Okay, I think I've narrowed it down to the following based on my own research, and from opinions from forum members here and elsewhere. A little above my price range, but it appears this is a really smart choice:

Nikon D80 body only (~$540)
Nikon 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 G ED-IF AF-S VR DX Zoom-Nikkor Lens (~$625)

Any thoughts on the need for a good, but inexpensive external flash (any recommendations)? And, what about a second battery? This will be used for a indoor wedding in 3 weeks and I want to be sure I have the necessary accessories before we get too close. Many thanks.

[Ray Schnoor]

Nikon SB-600 $172 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/323882-USA/Nikon_4802_SB_600_Speedlight.html)

Ray.