Grand Canyon Trip - Tell me what I did wrong!

[LBGChris]

Hey guys! Long time no post for me, I've been pretty busy. I finally got to go to the Grand Canyon and it was amazing! I now must admit that I MESSED UP the pictures though! I was convinced I'd get some great ones, but my colors are all messed up and they are pretty uninspired, the opposite of what I felt there. I was wondering if you guys could tell me what I did wrong or what I'm missing from the following pictures, which I consider to be the best of the ones I took. Thanks a lot and good to be back!

P.S. - I guess it appears to me that maybe I overexposed some of them and maybe I should have used a polarizing filter?

[Tomcat]

As far as the color goes it looks fine to me. The exposure dosen't look to bad either.
You do have some dust on you lense or sensor. There is one spot just above and to the right of center. That is the biggest one.

I have found out from trial & error that depending where you take your meter reading from effects how your color turns out. I use manual mode alot. When the sky is clear like in your pictures I meter off the sky. I also use an Expodisc to set a custom white balance.

Just my 2 cents.

[Rooz]

chris, hard to comment on photos like that. better to number then and upload to flickr with some exif.

the main issue i can see first up is that some of them are terribly soft. i dont see too many other issues to be quite honest. maybe the contrast is too high, do you remember what colour mode you were using ? my bet is that its a vivid setting, colour mode IIIa. id you shoot in raw ?

[LBGChris]

I mean these photos are after post processing, so it's not as bad.

1.) I know about the dust, thanks! I need to get it cleaned asap.
2.) Most of them ARE soft, how do I fix that?

[jcon]

Very blue looking to me. I agree with rooz that maybe its the Vivid setting, or you have upped the saturation a bit much. Exposure looks fine to me, but very very blue!

Softness can be fixed a few different ways, either sharpening in PS, using a stronger aperture, or testing the lens to make sure its not the culrpit.

Posting the EXIF for each photo would be a HUGE help when people are asked to analyze your images.

[GoneTomorrow]

I mean these photos are after post processing, so it's not as bad.

1.) I know about the dust, thanks! I need to get it cleaned asap.
2.) Most of them ARE soft, how do I fix that?

First off, they are all quite good, especially the one with the scraggly tree in the foreground, so don't beat yourself up too much!

And about the softness, you might want to mind what apertures you use. I see from some of these (not all have EXIF, so I can't tell for some), you're using rather small apertures, like f/13, which where some lenses are rather soft. I would check some MTF charts for your lenses so you know which focal lengths/apertures are particularly soft. Most lenses are sharpest between f/5.6 - f/8 unless it's multi-thousand dollar glass.



Posting the EXIF for each photo would be a HUGE help when people are asked to analyze your images.


chris, hard to comment on photos like that. better to number then and upload to flickr with some exif.


You're both right, but many of these have EXIF embedded. If you use Firefox, they have a nifty add-on called EXIF viewer which lets you view the EXIF for any image (that has it) just by right-clicking.

[toriaj]

LBG, I feel your pain, I'm surrounded by beautiful nature that is somehow hard to capture in a photo. Composition is even more crucial than normal. Check out the leading lines in this flickr photo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/markwetters/2104440407/)! Often it seems that the gorgeous rock formations are better as a background. They need a subject of some kind. Here (http://flickr.com/photos/59587532@N00/167032460/) the river is used as subject or foreground object. I've seen amazing results in shots taken at sunrise and sunset, I have yet to do that myself :p but even shots during storms (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikejonesphoto/2229141014/) or other shifting light can be impressive.

When it comes to apertures, I've had best results from f/8-f/13 when shooting landscapes. Focus placement can also make a big difference. If everything is rather far away from the camera (say 50 feet or so) I usually focus in the lower half of the frame. If there's a foreground object, I focus on that, but if the foreground object is much closer than the rest of the frame, just know that the background won't be sharp.

Most of the skies in your posted shots look massively oversaturated, and there just isn't enough going on to keep my interest. My favorites are 6 and 7. 6 has good use of foreground interest, and 7 has good depth.

[LBGChris]

Thanks everyone! Will take all of this input to heart.

[TheWengler]

I found the Grand Canyon to be a difficult place to shoot. Unfortunately the water was brown and not blue when I went. 6 is nice. I'm not too high on the rest. The skies are too blue. I would always use a CPL in those types of scenes. I'm not sure why your photos aren't sharp. Are you stopping down? Using a tripod? Do you normally experience sharpness issues?

[e_dawg]

I'd say the composition is partly responsible for the "uninspired" aspect to which you refer. It's a skill that takes time to develop (and I know i have a ton to learn). But I can offer a few simple compositional "tricks" that have worked for me: (1) to avoid normal focal lengths, (2) have 1 specific object or point of interest you want to focus on and not have a "flat" image where nothing in particular stands out, and (3) get close to specific objects of interest and either establish depth and a front-to-back connection when using a wide angle lens, or do an iso shot with a tele lens on a specific feature or part of your chosen subject, invoking subject isolation by blurring the background.

1 - Some of your pics suffer from the "normal is boring" phenomenon that is common with a standard zoom lens. For these kinds of trips, i wouldn't even think about taking a standard zoom. Only a super-wide zoom (e.g., Sigma 10-20) and a tele zoom (e.g., Nikon 55-200 or 70-300).

2 - You do pretty good with the last couple, having a clearly defined point of interest in the foreground; the first few, not so much, especially the first one

3 - This helps with compositional tricks 1 and 2.

As for the technical challenges, I might suggest (1) cleaning your sensor, (2) shooting RAW to avoid ridiculous colour and saturation settings from the camera, (3) calibrating your monitor using Spyder 3 or x-rite i1 display, and (4) learning how to optimize your post-processing to get the colours and sharpness right.

Proper colours is something that has to be learned over time... to train your eye to know what is natural or what looks good when you're done. Sharpening is something that you can learn from Ron Bigelow's site -- IMO, the best guide to sharpening on the net:

http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/sharpen1/sharpen1.htm

[tizeye]

For those that think the sky is too blue - that is the Arizona sky - particurally those first few. That was a shock when I was stationed in Phoenix as have never seen sky so blue.

Agree, stop down to improve sharpness. Based on the shadows, the sun was low which may have accented the blue range of a lightwave creating the additional blueing in the canyon haze. Also, note the blue shaddow at the base of the tower. With post processing, you should be able to reduce the blue in the detail, bringing more of the colors out without adversly affecting the richness of the sky.

[jcon]

For those that think the sky is too blue - that is the Arizona sky - particurally those first few. That was a shock when I was stationed in Phoenix as have never seen sky so blue.

Agree, stop down to improve sharpness. Based on the shadows, the sun was low which may have accented the blue range of a lightwave creating the additional blueing in the canyon haze. Also, note the blue shaddow at the base of the tower. With post processing, you should be able to reduce the blue in the detail, bringing more of the colors out without adversly affecting the richness of the sky.

My brother lives in AZ. I have been to AZ. No sky is THAT blue, I dont care where it is. Sorry. Even more so, you can see the blue cast/haze in the last 2 pictures, not just in the sky.

[erichlund]

The key problem with the canyon photos is the time of day. South Rim photos should be shot well before noon, preferably before 10am. Best within 2 hours of sunrise. Middle of the day will wash out your colors. Better to wait until evening if you can't get morning shots. In that case, you have to choose your angles well or you may have to deal with a lot of flare and ghosting. In that case, you better remember where you put the d@#n hood (that you should use all the time, anyway).

Another way to improve your into the sun photos: Use simpler lens designs to limit problems. Good time to get out the primes.

Another hint: If you don't see snow on the ground - somewhere - it's probably not cold enough yet to clear the air in the canyon, so you will have some haze. Hey, don't they make a filter for haze??? OK, that's another hint.

Hmmmm...I have a couple of free weeks coming up at Xmas time. I'm getting ideas in my head.

[tizeye]

My brother lives in AZ. I have been to AZ. No sky is THAT blue, I dont care where it is. Sorry. Even more so, you can see the blue cast/haze in the last 2 pictures, not just in the sky.

These were taken with Kodachrome film which gives a warm reddish tone, rather than the cooler Ektachrome which would have given a blueish cast. Kodachrome would have lightened the blue some.
Yes, the sky is quite blue in AZ - but as always, it depends the time of day.

Montezuma Castle, AM looking west.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/ibhim/Image1.jpg

Balloon, over my house early AM, based on the shaddow, looking W SW

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/ibhim/Image3.jpg

Grand Canyon. From south rim, looking north, afternoon. Unfortunately (or fortunately) clouds came in that didn't have on earlier portions of the trip (Flagstaff and Sedona area, including Montezuma Castle above.) Notice how still had the blueish ting, despite the film that would not have added it. Even the clouds look blue. That is why I wouldn't make a universal adjustment to the camera, but rely on software post processing to adjust the blue. NOTE: after scanning the slides, no PP adjusting color. While I know the film, I don't know the f-stop or shutter and can guess at the lens. 28mm Grand Canyon, 135mm balloon and probably 50mm on Montezuma Castle or possible the 135mm again.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/ibhim/Image2.jpg

[XaiLo]

Montezuma Castle, AM looking west.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/ibhim/Image1.jpg



Bluetiful, that's a really cool shot.

[jcon]

tizeye, your pictures show a natural looking sky, not over saturated or too bright with blue. Again, they arent as blue as the OPs pictures. Thank you for proving my point.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Slide 3 whilst a beautiful shot has gone to blue as evinced by the blue cast to the rocks. If you warm the shot/scan it might look even nicer.

Edawg that link on sharpening was fantastic, first time I saw that, invaluable.

[e_dawg]

Edawg that link on sharpening was fantastic, first time I saw that, invaluable.

Glad you like it. Most Photoshop "experts" who have guides online or chapters on sharpening in their books don't do it nearly as good as Ron Bigelow. When someone first mentioned the site to me on an Olympus forum I frequent, I thought it was a bit of a joke due to the similarity to Deuce Bigelow (Adam Sandler's male gigolo character). But when I read the 6 part article on sharpening, I knew this was no joke. The man knows his sh*t.

[Phill D]

Yes I just saw your sharpening link too & just skipped it briefly, it looks brilliant - thanks for posting.

[Rooz]

is there an idiots guide to that tutorial ?

[Phill D]

I sympathise with your viewpoint as I also went to the GC a few years ago in 2005 and was dissapointed with my pictures. It is somewhere that needs some research before you go to capture that awe inspiring scene. I wish I'd had some of the tips here before I went. Anyway that said here is an example shot from my FZ20 without any filters. The first is an original - very pale & dissapointing the second shows what a split second of auto leveling in elements 6 will do. It is dramatic I know & doesn't work for all the shots but in this case I was very pleased. Sometimes the simplest PP is best.
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[Visual Reality]

Phill D, that is excellent.

[tizeye]

Phil - NICE!
That illustrates what I was trying to say. Rely more on PP software to adjust more than a universal camera adjustment. Doesn't have to be Photoshop - PS Elements or Paintshop Pro will do nicely and can usually find (alternating) on sale.

Now if you are having to adjust the same thing in every picture, then consider altering the camera settings. Simply basing it on the Grand Canyons which are deceptively difficult to photograph sets up future problems. I am not aware of any "calibration" standard - but it would be a good idea. They do it for TV's, color darkrooms, etc. Cameras, of course have the additional variables - LCD screen viewing, color printers etc which would make a color chart comparison difficult, but an idea.

Incidently, DPR - On those slides I posted earlier, you're right they could be improved with PP. I intentionally did not, other than some dust removal, as I wanted them to be a "clean" example of colors.

[JTL]

Phil...nice image that demonstrates excellent use of PS.

Oh, well...here we go...one of my GC shots...just have to get in on the action...:D

Taken just after sunrise. Time-of-day is very important when shooting the GC...

http://jtl.smugmug.com/photos/44968862_AXizi-L.jpg

[e_dawg]

is there an idiots guide to that tutorial ?

I believe your good friend Kenny R. must have something resembling an idiot's guide on his website ;)

[josef]

Well, the main issue i see is with sharpness. Any time i an going on a epic trip like that, I always plan to bring the tripod. Hassle, yes.. Worth it, absolutely. Using a tripod and the 2-second timer virtually eliminates vibrations that can rob you from an absolutely sharp photo. Of course, this is not always possible, but you should try it (if you don't already). It really helps you in landscape photography if you plan on using f/8, f/11 and smaller to get everything in focus. Just my opinion, good luck and thanks for sharing your photos!

[Visual Reality]

Well, the main issue i see is with sharpness. Any time i an going on a epic trip like that, I always plan to bring the tripod. Hassle, yes.. Worth it, absolutely. Using a tripod and the 2-second timer virtually eliminates vibrations that can rob you from an absolutely sharp photo. Of course, this is not always possible, but you should try it (if you don't already). It really helps you in landscape photography if you plan on using f/8, f/11 and smaller to get everything in focus. Just my opinion, good luck and thanks for sharing your photos!
There is one more thing you need to do. If you have a D200/D300, use the Mirror Lock-Up feature. If you have a D80/D90 or lower, use the Exposure Delay mode. This will eliminate vibrations from the mirror slapping.

[Rich1006]

I mean these photos are after post processing, so it's not as bad.I don't think it's fair. I mean, you take a picture, do something to it, and we are supposed to guess what was wrong with the original picture?


They do not look to bad to me, the contrast is a bit high, but expected at the Grand Canyon. The sky may seem awfull blue to some, but that is expected at the Grand Canyon. The Grand Canyon is difficult to photograph, it is really difficult to capture the landscape.


Rich

[Phill D]

Just got back here, thanks for the kind words guys much appreciated.
JTL that is an excellent panorama shot easilly as good as the poster we bought from a gift shop at the GC.

[Phill D]

Here's another shot. This time an original except I just shrunk it in size & cropped a little, probably should have sharpened it a bit in hindsite but didn't. I tried the same simple PP on this as the other shot & it did virtually nothing. Just goes to show trial & error only goes so far & there is lots to learn.
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[GoneTomorrow]

I think all your shots are great Phil. In the most recent, if I had to criticize anything, I would say that the branches in the foreground on the left side look slightly out of focus or possibly blurred from motion. There looks like a bit of atmospheric haze in the distance as well - possibly some more adjustment to the levels?


There is one more thing you need to do. If you have a D200/D300, use the Mirror Lock-Up feature. If you have a D80/D90 or lower, use the Exposure Delay mode. This will eliminate vibrations from the mirror slapping.

That's a very good suggestion and something I ALWAYS forget to do when shooting!

[JTL]

Just got back here, thanks for the kind words guys much appreciated.
JTL that is an excellent panorama shot easilly as good as the poster we bought from a gift shop at the GC.Thank you sir! :)

[Visual Reality]

That's a very good suggestion and something I ALWAYS forget to do when shooting!
Granted, it doesn't matter much for higher shutter speeds (1/500+?), or very slow speeds (10+ seconds long) but everything in between can benefit.

Those numbers are just guesses but there is a reason it doesn't have a benefit for very fast or very slow shots.