Larger sensors in the future?

[Wesan]

No matter what you think about it, the "megapixel race" continues. On compact cameras as well as DSLRs. More pixels means smaller pixels, which means more noise and lower image quality (if I have understood things correctly).

In order to keep a high image quality in future camera models, I think the manufacturers will have to increase the physical size of the sensors (to keep the pixels from getting too small). For example, today's full frame sensors are 36 x 24 mm. In the future they will be, let's say, 44 x 29.3 mm. or larger. The smaller sensor sizes will also have to become larger, in DSLRs as well as compact cameras.

What are your thoughts about this?

[jekostas]

No matter what you think about it, the "megapixel race" continues. On compact cameras as well as DSLRs. More pixels means smaller pixels, which means more noise and lower image quality (if I have understood things correctly).

In order to keep a high image quality in future camera models, I think the manufacturers will have to increase the physical size of the sensors (to keep the pixels from getting too small). For example, today's full frame sensors are 36 x 24 mm. In the future they will be, let's say, 44 x 29.3 mm. or larger. The smaller sensor sizes will also have to become larger, in DSLRs as well as compact cameras.

What are your thoughts about this?

There does have to be some balance between sensor and glass size, though, as larger sensors require larger lens.

[DonSchap]

You know ... they've had the Medium Format digital backs (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=product&A=getSiblingItemDetail&Q=prev&Csku=560770&Cis=REG) for the 645 cameras for several years now. Those bad boys are ranging from $7000 to $40000.

So, yes, there are sensors obviously much larger than the current crop of 35mm. Those are also on the increase, along with their prices. They don't really get a lot of play on this forum. Understandably so ... as it takes a lot of images to pay for one of those puppies. The people using them are probably pretty busy.

There's also a good argument about this at PopPhoto (http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/3183/digital-backs-vs-dslrs-is-bigger-still-better.html)

[Wesan]

Jekostas: I guess you're right about that. Didn't think about that... :o But I think they can find ways to solve that problem somehow, so the glass size can be the same. Maybe by leading the light through an optical device before it reaches the sensor. This device would "spread" the light so it covers the larger sensor. An in-camera mounted concave lens element might do it?

DonSchap: Yes, I know there are cameras of other formats, which have bigger sensors already. But I was thinking about the more "usual" formats, if you see what I mean? :)

[Ray Schnoor]

You won't see larger sensors in the 35mm format camera because that is the largest sensor that will fit in the image circle of the lenses designed for these cameras. What is the use of a larger sensor, if the lenses on the camera cannot project an image over the entire sensor?

So, no, you will not see larger sensors in the 35mm format cameras.

They have larger format cameras, or possibly, but not likely, may introduce another format between 35mm and medium format.

Ray.

[Wesan]

Would it be possible to solve the problem with projecting an image over the entire sensor, with an extra lens inside the camera, as I described in my reply to Jekostas? A concave lens that makes the image larger, and that way makes it cover the whole, larger, sensor? Or maybe some other kind of optical solution inside the camera? That way, we can still use the "old" lenses.

This would mean a new format, of course (or several, if they will all "grow", as I first wrote). If you make a larger APS-C format sensor, it's no longer a real APS-C format sensor. So it will be a new format. The same thing goes with today's full frame sensors. But if the image from the old lenses could be made to cover the whole, larger sensor, the problem with the image circle Ray described would be solved.

Do you think this could be done? Would it cause other problems, maybe? Technical or image quality wise?

I'm neither an optical nor a digital camera expert and I don't know all the technical terms...even though I've been around the forums for a while. :o So maybe sometimes I ask stupid questions and maybe don't use the right words. So please bear with me. Just trying to learn and find out if some of the ideas I sometimes get, would be possible to realize. :) Or if I'm just plain stupid and don't understand a thing... :D

[Ray Schnoor]

I guess that the big question would be "Why". There already is a larger sensor being used in medium format cameras with their own lenses. To fit this "enlarging lens" into the 35 mm format bodies, you are going to have to make them deeper or "bulkier" to be able to fit this lens. This enlarging lens would also have the effect of making the existing lenses slower and degrade the image quality.

So, my answer is still "No" they will not be making a larger sensor to put into 35mm format cameras.

Ray.

[Turn]

I think they should start making medium format cheaper or something in between :D

[tkbslc]

I think the real technology for 99.5% of the users is going to be making existing sensors better and smaller sensors good. I see no reason why small sensors can't someday have nice noise-free images. It just will take some newer tech than we have now. Once they can squeeze a noise free 12MP 1600 ISO out of a 1/2" sensor, getting a nice 50MP out of a 35mm FF sensor will be a breeze.

[David Metsky]

You first have to establish a need for greater numbers of pixels or better quality images then you can get with the current sized sensors. The megapixel race will die down soon enough, certainly before anyone goes through the expense of creating new formats.

[jekostas]

There's also cost increases for the actual silicon, actual physical dimension increases for the bigger sensors in the camera, not to mention the necessity of more powerful batteries.

[Visual Reality]

I think the real technology for 99.5% of the users is going to be making existing sensors better and smaller sensors good. I see no reason why small sensors can't someday have nice noise-free images. It just will take some newer tech than we have now. Once they can squeeze a noise free 12MP 1600 ISO out of a 1/2" sensor, getting a nice 50MP out of a 35mm FF sensor will be a breeze.
The thing is, it works the other way around. All of the cute little tech you see going into these little compacts (which are just miniaturized versions of the same basic idea) comes from a "trickle-down" effect from advances in tech at the top end. It takes scientists continually pushing the boundaries to make the older more mature stuff even cheaper and viable for production to the masses.

[James DeRuvo DHQ]

I agree with David. The fact is that most people who shoot digital photography (I'm talking shutter bugs here) either don't print their pictures are 99.99% of them stay as 4x6 or 3x5. As such, any larger MP advantage is simply left unused and won't exert itself until you pass 8x10 in enlargement.

In addition, without a larger chip, what you end up with is more noise crashing the party as the chip becomes less sensitive to light with all those MP stuffed on the tiny surface area.

Agreed that larger chips would easily solve the issue.