Another version of the same old question

[seanhoxx]

Hello all, long time reader 1st, time poster. This site and forums are a great research and self education tool. I am now ready to step over to dslr. I am leaning towards the a300, the question is will it be "enough" camera for me, and then of course I need lens advice. About 25% of my shooting will be soccer, high school football, marching bands, from sidelines, day, dusk, night with stadium lights, some baseball, and track. A lot of travel, vacation, landscape, cityscape, etc. shooting for fun/hobby. lots of outdoors, lots of motion. Also interested in weather, clouds, storms, lighting but have no background with that. Budget is at $1000.00 to start now, and then around another $500.00 or a bit more in about 6 mo. for some reason people keep suggesting I go with Nikon??
I am sure many more questions will be comming....thanks
Sean

[DonSchap]

If you choose SONY ... you'll be stepping into an exciting growth opportunity. SONY is reaching out and offering more and more improvements to their current line, there have only be a few to the Canon and Nikon. If you believe you would be happy with the standard fair ... have arms of steel and therefore would not be too worried about handheld-shake in your shots ... then Nikon or Canon are your options. But, if you would like the convenience of anti-shake with EVERY lens you mount, then Olympus, SONY, Pentax, and Samsung become the obvious choices.

SONY has the Minolta-heritage, which has usually been with cutting-edge ideas in photography and some relatively exciting progressions. Will SONY continue this trend? Well, when the release of the α900 Flagship full-frame camera body - with anti-shake built in it - becomes reality ... that 24.2MP sensor will be like nothing else available for the DSLR. That's pretty exciting stuff ... and no one else has that even planned.

For all the different shoting you plan on doing, you might want to take a closer look at the α700, as an option over the α300. The α300 is designed more for the intro-shooter, who really does not have an agenda. You sound like you are going to want a lot more flexibility in your shooting style ... and that usually calls for a bit more camera body.

[seanhoxx]

thanks Don, how did I just know you would be the first to reply ! I really enjoy reading your posts, very informative. the a700 has been the lust in my heart for some time, maybe I should just GO BIG, thought maybe start with a300 to learn and make mistakes with. less camera, more money for good glass? but will it satisfy me thats the question eh.

[DonSchap]

For the few hundred dollars difference between the α300 and the α700 ... just get the more capable camera and then know your tool has everything you will need for most shots. There just isn't much better out there, at that cost. The Nikon D300, which barely has an edge over the α700, cost nearly 50% more! Now, unless you already have an investment in Nikon lenses, paying that, is tossing money away, in my opinion.

But, play it as you will ... I figure you know what you want to do ... and, in effect, described the mission of the α700. The decision seems to have been basically made for you ... by you. :rolleyes:

[seanhoxx]

After spending the last few days reading the forums in depth, and paying lots of attention to Don's posts I am juusst about ready to order my a700:
I can order the a700P kit with the SAL-16105 DT. for about $1900 this will be the only lens I would have till Sept. I have also thought of ordering body only for approx. $1000 and adding the Tamron AF 18-250 XR DI II LD (IF) to it, again I would have no other lens till Sept. Also thought about SAL-500F80 500mm f/8 reflex. (overkill most likely?) I am sure I want to add the Tamron SP AF 17-50 XR DI -II LD (IF) to the camera. So what suggestions would you give me, or what order to buy what lens? A LOT of my shooting will be action sports, starting over the summer and going through the fall. Also parades, festivals, landscapes. I understand I will be limited till i build up a few pieces.
Am I thinking to "big" in the telephoto? most of my soccer and football would be less then 200 ft away. In Sept. I will have another $800 to "invest":D in this hobby. As always thanks for your time and advice

[DonSchap]

Well ... based on what my experiences have been with lens selection, I would pop for the following:

SONY α700 body ($900) (http://www.millenniumcamera.com/viewproduct.aspx?id=3717390)
TAMRON SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF) lens ($420) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423718-REG/Tamron_AF016M700_17_50mm_f_2_8_XR_Di.html)
TAMRON AF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 Di LD lens ($160) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423729-REG/Tamron_AF017M700_70_300mm_f_4_5_6_Di_LD.html)
SONY HVL-F42AM flash ($300) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423718-REG/Tamron_AF016M700_17_50mm_f_2_8_XR_Di.html)



I feel these items give you the best return on your available 1900 dollars. Please do not confuse these with the "best" lenses available ... just a fair and reasonably "good" lens selection for the amount you have suggested you will spend. Stay away from the SONY 16-105mm, as it does not have as sharp a center focus as you probably want from your lenses. The TAMRON AF 18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di-II LD Aspherical (IF) is a great convenience lens, but you are looking to expand very quickly and for that reason, it would not be the lens to use. It'll rapidly wind up left in your bag or at home, as you acquire other faster and sharper lenses. I use mine as a backup lens on my α100. I call it the "grab & go" package. I can put the α100 in AUTO mode, toss it to a friend ... and still get some results without changing glass.

The next lens I would add would be a toss up between a SONY AF 50mm f/1.4 PRIME lens or a SIGMA 10-20 f/4-5.6 DC EX HSM Ultra-wide zoom. That would depend on your needs, using both for indoor shooting in the Fall and Winter.

Next year, when you are really ready to invest some coin ... look for a solid 70-200m f/2.8 lens. This will provide long distance -> indoors ... and an improved focus speed, which the 70-300 simply cannot touch.

[nenarek]

Wow, that seems like a great price for the A700. Is this a reliable vendor? I haven't heard of Millennium Camera before, but if they would be willing to sell this camera body without having to load up on their over-priced accessories I would consider upgrading from my A100 sometime this summer.

[DonSchap]

Well, I cannot vouche for them, I have no experience with their company. But for this kind of savings ($300-400) ... it might be worth the time for someone NEW to try it and get their feet wet. Personally, I cannot keep kicking in the door for everyone else. Just report back any issues you encounter and the rest will know.

If you go into a buying situation ready for "the bump", you are way ahead of the guy going in there, unaware. Forewarned is forearmed. You just want the camera, no warranties, no filters, batteries, whatever ... just the box, man!

"Should you or any member of your team... be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions"

Good Luck, Jim ... (Mission Impossible theme (http://userpages.bright.net/~jcbk/filez/2.mid) (<- click here) plays in the background)

[seanhoxx]

today afterwork i will make a call to the dealer and probe his defenses, I will attempt to determine if this is a lure, or bait to suck you in, initial recon seems to show a legit site, hmmnnnnn stay alert, be cautious. I will try and remain focused, any tips or heads up as to questions I should ask concerning product? or red flags to watch for?

[seanhoxx]

hmmmmmmm the physical address for millenium camera is on 89th. st. Brooklyn New York, different numericals but same street as some of "those" other guys

[seanhoxx]

o.k. some background and history check I have the following report. Millenium camera is a member of the broadway photo family as of Dec. 2007, this includes broadwayphoto, bwayphoto, cameratopia regalcamera, and at least 6 other "companies" all of which are on the "BAD" list in the forums, and are also listed at www.sheddingsomelight.com There are BBB complaints on file against ALL of the company names associated, and some federal complaints as well. anon. domain owners, same addresses for different people. I might still call tehm and see, but it sounds like the standard bait and switch no stock efraud that is all over the east coast.

[nenarek]

o.k. some background and history check I have the following report. Millenium camera is a member of the broadway photo family as of Dec. 2007, this includes broadwayphoto, bwayphoto, cameratopia regalcamera, and at least 6 other "companies" all of which are on the "BAD" list in the forums, and are also listed at www.sheddingsomelight.com There are BBB complaints on file against ALL of the company names associated, and some federal complaints as well. anon. domain owners, same addresses for different people. I might still call tehm and see, but it sounds like the standard bait and switch no stock efraud that is all over the east coast.

The price did seem to be a little too good to be true and I did notice that they seemed to have a lot of the same accessories as broadwayphoto.

I wonder how dbuys.com is? They have the camera for $1139.00 (http://www.dbuys.com/product/?47723&hit_id=11992214&Campaign_id=208&cart_id=25435221&sk1=1).

They seem semi-legitimate from their resellerratings.com reviews (http://www.resellerratings.com/seller3385.html).

Does anyone have any tips on a good price from a good shop?

[DonSchap]

Okay ... bail. Do not get involved in the Brooklyn Triangle. Money seems to get lost (or seriously delayed) in there. Returns are just impossible. Warranties ... the stuff of fable and myth. Welcome to "Grey Market"

I apologize for the thrill of the drill ... but $800 did look sweet. The weird thing that SONY is being sued for "price-fixing" in France. France apparently does not like monopolistic financial plans in their country, with implicit threats from SONY of slow delivery and other penalties for non-compliance by SONY retailers. B&H and Adorama have already caved with several SONY lenses sudddenly going up in price for no apparent reason.

Previously, the plan is to hold the line on the discounting of the A700 ... in an effort to promote the Introductory-Alpha line.

Regardless of the body you put it on, that third-party glass looks better and better, all the time. Make mine TAMRON! :p

[seanhoxx]

The search for MY a700 starter kit goes on, it has been a busy week! Seems that not only are the name stores holding the Sony line on prices but the a700 is NOT the easist camera in the U.S. to locate. I have a friend who has a friend who is tight with a "big shot" with Best Buy here in Ohio, any way a phone call was made, a few emails exchanged and he has found "the last remaining a700 east of the Missisppi in a B.B. on the east coast. His store cost is $1162, will have it shipped to his B.B about 50 miles from from me and sell it to me for $1199 with the hopes I will "consider extended warranty, memory, accessories, etc" from his store in the future. I think I am going to do it, and then bite the bullet and order Tamron 17-50, and 70-300 from B&H with the bill me later plan:eek: bring my quest to a end, and start shooting, I know I have a learning curve to overcome, and figure the more i shoot and "fiddle with the knobs" things will start to make sense:D Any advice on filters for the 2 lenses? basic UV, a CP for the 300? what else? Hoya 3 piece kit? If any one is interested I could put up a post about my quest, and the "anti-sony" feeling out there. as always thanks much, and more questions will be on the way! Sean:confused:

[DonSchap]

Filterwise: UV's are a toss up ... personally, I take them off before I go shooting. I basically use them as pseudo-"lens caps", to keep the fingerprints off the primary lens element.

The "CP" is only really useful if you are shooting against water or the sky. Remember, a circular polarizer gobbles up a little more than one f-stop of light ... so indoors it is probably an avoidable mistake and, normally, just leave it off your lens.

Forget "FL" or fluorescent filters, as White Balance or Photoshop will adjust for that.

A good filter to invest in is a half-ND or a graduated. This allows you to take bright skies behind your subjects and still eek out a decent exposure of them, without a flash. Below isn't the best example I ever had, but it will give you a simulated idea of how you can preserve your sky with a half-ND approach.

Without 1/2-ND filter
36734

With 1/2-ND filter
36735

Believe me, there are better examples.

Of course, if you "solarize" ...

36736

you get the creepy-looking skies we've been seeing in the midwest, these days, just before an entire town goes skyward and the obligatory calls are made to the insurance companies.

I'm sure you will do quite well with the two lenses you have chosen to purchase. You will know if you need something else, pretty soon after shooting these.

[seanhoxx]

love the solarised shot, looks creepy and otherworldly! may just get a low end UV filter for protection see how it goes. I will also be following your suggestions Don and picking up a Sigma 10-20 mm ultra wide zoom in Sept. of this year. Will try and learn what all the camera can do before trying to learn what else I can do by playing with filters, one step at a time eh.
thanks
Sean

[DonSchap]

Well, I would consider what you CANNOT get with a 17-50mm before you dive into a 10-20mm. That's usually a $500 lens that doesn't get nearly the use a 70-200mm f/2.8 might. In otherwords, that $500 might be better spent elsewhere, unless you are planning on doing architectural photography or group shots.

[seanhoxx]

I should work on developing skill with the camera, and see what and how well I do with the 17-50 and the 70-300 before I start making plans. see what I am actualy shooting and where another lens would be of need and go from there. But I have tucked away the 10-20 wide, and the 50mm 1.4 prime as contenders in the next time I buy list. Don once again thank you so much for all the time and information. I have learned more from this site and the forums here then all the other online research and reading I have done over the last 6 mo. If I become annoying please just let me know.
Sean

[DonSchap]

Asking for assistance on the site is what it is all about ... and I rather doubt anyone would refuse such a request. The interest is "better photography" and to avoid getting roped into buying something you really don't need at the moment. Salespeople have a lot of fun getting you to buy unnecessary equipment ... it's their job. On here, though, a lot of us have already gotten "burned", so to speak, so we are coming at this from a completely different approach ... practicality.

Certain aspects of photography are brief needs ... and it is nice if you have the resources to cover these occasional "weird" shots, but for the most part ... you can usually work around them. As your financial aspects improve and you can set aside more money for these small issues, then you do so.

Most folks come and say, "Hey, I have $1000 for a DSLR and I want to shoot the world."

Unfortunately ... that might get you a decent body and a "kit" lens, but not much else. Practically speaking, running the cash register ... let's take a look at the cost of a "decent" camera bag full of the average stuff, based on the SONY A700 (If you are serious about this, you start with this camera, not the introductory ones) (It is assumed the 70-200mm f/2.8 will eventually replace your introductory 70-300 f/4-5.6):

Item . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Cost

SONY A700 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1150
UWA lens (10-20mm, 11-18mm, 10-24mm) . . . 500 – 700
17-50 f/2.8 (Working lens – indoor/outdoor) . . . 425
70-200 f/2.8 (Superior Telephoto) . . . . . . . . . 700
70-300 f/4-5.6 (Intro-Telephoto) . . . . . . . . . . 180
200-500mm f/5-6.3 (Super-telephoto) . . . . . . . 800
PRIME (low light lens) 50mm f/1.4 . . . . . . . . . . 330
PRIME/MACRO (portrait lens) 90mm f/2.8 . . . . . 400
Electronic Flash (HVL-F56AM) . . . . . . . . . . . . 400


So, just for argument sake ... does that really look like a $1000 investment? :rolleyes:

No, this is actually the "cheaper side" of the DSLR game, with relatively decent, but not the expensive glass. A good flash to keep up with it, too. There have been no costs included for filters, bags, batteries, memory cards, or other odds and ends. Even w/o that stuff, it rings in at close to $5000. That's the cost of a standard DSLR that can shoot from 10-500mm, indoors and outdoors, and give you Portrait and MACRO. Believe me when I say that there are many who are well in excess of this rather "conservative" bag of glass.

If you want the really good glass to shoot through, you can add about $1000 per lens to do so, except or the super-telephoto. That ticket price for a 200-500mm f/2.8 lens is $24,000. You also might want to get a wagon to haul it around it, too, because it also weighs in at 33 lbs.


36764


If you are thinking you can do it cheaper than that nominal $5000 ... your photography will show it. The last time we went through this exercise, it cost roughly $6500. Remember, this is just the cost of equipment (using mostly third-party lenses), with no software, computer or printer costs.

So, dig deep and ... uh, welcome to the club. :D

[seanhoxx]

"MY" a700 will be leaving the back room of a Best Buy in virginia on Thursday morning, I don't know why Thursday, it just is :)Will be ordering tamron 17-50 and the 70-300 from whoever has the best price/shipping/payment set up of the "excellent" rated dealers. Most likely B-H on Friday Morning. Some one said I should wait till Sunday night and see if there are new sales?? Can't imagine that big of difference.
I can't belive I have done it :eek: Time to cut back on that Irish whisky and single malt scotch hobby that I enjoy so much - damn it!! I also won't be supporting the grape growers in that small valley along the Mosel river in Germany as actively as I used to. :D Ahh but it's all good! at least now I have something other then a empty bottle after spending the money!!
{ takes a deeeep breath and steps into the DSLR zone}

The ONLY thing I need now is: a signature line, a tag line phrase, a flickr acct. a DCRP I.D. badge, some filters, a good flash, extra battery pack, extra memory, cleaning kit, more glass, a cool vest with all those pockets " I could use the black one that says SHERIFF on it, maybe not" a cool hat.................
;) Umm you guys know I'm just kidding there with the last part right?

[DonSchap]

Good job! You'll have the time of your life, except that B&H is not open on Friday night. It is operated by group of indivduals who respect the Sabbath ... and hold it dear. No business on that day. Order on Sunday.

Best of luck with your new camera system.

[sparkie1263]

Check out this site for your lens. I went into the city and picked one up two weeks ago. The store is amazing. I didn't have time to browse because I was on my way to my sons football game. Good thing I would have maxed out the credit cards.
Frank

http://www.adorama.com

P.S. I bought the Tamaron 70-300 for $159.95

[dr4gon]

Check out this site for your lens. I went into the city and picked one up two weeks ago. The store is amazing. I didn't have time to browse because I was on my way to my sons football game. Good thing I would have maxed out the credit cards.
Frank

http://www.adorama.com

P.S. I bought the Tamaron 70-300 for $159.95

and to throw another site in, I got mine off of Amazon (via cameta camera) for $150 +$6 shipping (cheapest I could find). But it seems they don't have it anymore.

[seanhoxx]

I wonder how much the input and comments from this forum play in marketing LOL wow as I said earlier the a700 is not the easiest camera to come by in the u.s. this week, and today Adorama is out of stock on the Tamron 70 - 300, as well as the above mentioned site through Amazon.I guess this could be viewed as a good thing for the Sony minority eh. Has anyone noticed tamron lenses for Sony also going up on ebay?? maybe the surge in 300 / 350 sales has something to do with it. Feels like and exciting time to be a Sony fan. Even though I was once warned not to be fooled by the "Sony cult" of propaganda and misinformation ! lol

[DonSchap]

Yeah ... we're just making things up ... :rolleyes: Sky's the limit!


Moon Pie in the Sky
36851


Remember: It's not the camera, but the person standing behind it. NAH!!! It's just the camera! ;)

[seanhoxx]

:cool:To be one with the camera one must learn the camera and know it as one knows thy self. it becomes one with the eye and the mind, both of which "see" what is of yor spirit, heart, and soul, {but the a700 adjusts the colors really fast} Master your camera but let it continue to challenge you. and you can always say that out of focus over exposed shot was a artistic experiment, you were pushing the limits etc etc.


Ummm if there is a sony cult, do i have to pay dues? what about meetings? we don't do anything involving sharp pointy objects and our body parts?

[DonSchap]

Well ... there are a good number of Minolta/SONY boards that have come up in the past year. Whether or not they offer much more than lens opinion and some critique, well ... that's hard to say.

Personally, the DCRP has been a good place for some honest feedback and its fun to watch the jaws drop when you cough up a decent composition or two. Admittedly, there are some "prize-winning" questions that are occasionally asked. That's always fun.

Not too many cultists, though ... that sharp feel is the price of Carl Zeiss-glass in your wallet. An occasional bruise is one thing, but this is out and out ... savage.

[dr4gon]

Yeah ... we're just making things up ... :rolleyes: Sky's the limit!


Moon Pie in the Sky
36851


Remember: It's not the camera, but the person standing behind it. NAH!!! It's just the camera! ;)

Any exif info for this picture? I saw this a while back on your flickr and really like it. I know the moon is close to setting I believe, (at least close to the horizon), but how big was it really? (I'm having trouble getting a sense of perspective lol :D)

[Rooz]

Don's mastery of PP in that one. its a combination of 2 exposures perfectly executed.

[dr4gon]

Don's mastery of PP in that one. its a combination of 2 exposures perfectly executed.

I'm new to photography and the terminology, but what's PP? Is it photoshopped together?

[DonSchap]

PP = Post processing.

The moon was actually on the rise, in the evening, sun still up, over Red Rocks Amphitheater, when I took it. The pillar looked beautiful, but the moon came out kind of small, though. It's a quarter million miles away!

Several people around me saw my technique with the tripod and the skyward shot, noting the moon's position ... and I resolved the aspect problem, when I reached back into the magic camera bag, quickly changed lens from the 17-50mm to my 80-400mm, zoomed out to 400mm and got it, again, without moving the tripod or camera.

This is the "resized" original shot:

36871
EXIF: 20mm - f/19 - 1/45 sec - ISO-200 - Manual Mode - Light Source="Nature"


Not nearly as ... impressive. This is the honest perspective. When you actually look up though, your eyes play tricks on you ... and it does seem larger. I simply took that intent and made it ... "real?"

When I got back to Des Plaines, to edit and review my stuff, I clipped out the moon from that 400mm shot, as I had intended, and pasted it into the original, in the very same spot ... only it now looks a bit ... closer. Maybe only 50-thousand miles away. Can you imagine the tides from such an orbit?

Please forgive me my creative trespasses, eh?

[nenarek]

I just pulled the trigger on an Ebay buy it now of a new in box A700. If I don't get scammed the final price was $973.16.

All of Don's posts are really making me want that Tamron 17-50, but I think I will have to wait!

[dr4gon]

aha! now I see how ya did it! ;)

Thanks. That's very clever!

[DonSchap]

Again, it comes down to composition. When you are given lemons ... going ahead and making lemonade.

We have tools to create greater interpretation of beauty from the most natural beautiful, so why not? Embellish that which does not offend.

Knowing what your tools can do is perhaps more important to construction than the actually plan itself. Engineers may have the concept, but the craftsman have the experience and technique for the final fit.

[seanhoxx]

my new a700, not your moon Don, but I might say it looks close enough to hold in your hand. LOL very nice work, I saw that the first time you put it up. {makes note to self to ask Don lots of questions about PP}
anyway got the call this afternoon my a700 is locked in the office of a Best Buy about 50 miles from me, can't go get it today "friday" can't go Saturday as I am working a 10 hr. shift directing traffic to help pay for this new adventure. maybe Sunday. $1199.00 out the door, not bad for "the last a7oo in Best Buys inventory" would still have loved to got a deal in a triple figure, but oh well. I am a rewards zone customer. They have a no interest for 2 yrs. on purchases over $999.00 till the end of June, so looking to add on a extra battery, some memeory, any advice on C.f. card over memory stick? maybe a bag also. extended warranty including accidental damage 4 yrs. for $160.00 have to read the fine print and see exactly what that means, any comments on that?
Takes deep breath and focuses, trying not to be to giddy...................

[DonSchap]

You will get over the giddiness ... believe me, when reality of it all settles in. You are embarking on a very fruitful, yet initially pricey venture.

Once you have the base level lens set ... then it settles down a bit. Anyway, I personally use a 16 GB Transcend CF card and a SONY 8 GB Memory Stick PRO, together. That allows me to toggle back and forth with JPGs on one card and RAW files on another. My way of keeping things sorted out.

I'm not saying its the best, but it works.

[seanhoxx]

I picked up my a700 on Sunday afternoon, ordered my lenses from B + H today, charged up the batteries, ready to get shooting!!
guess i will have to start a new post as questions come up eh. My advice is do your homework, know what you need, consider the price of what you really want, and if it is doable, go for the higher end. and concerning lenses just go ahead and order from B+H or Adorma and be done with it. can't wait to start playing

[DonSchap]

One other aspect to all this, from the "What it's Worth" department of Schap Photography:

Study art ... then do it.

You can learn a lot from reviewing the work of others ... then use the utmost compliment: try to reproduce it.

Honestly, there is not a lot more to "invent" with the tools we have ... but, a lot to perfect for ourselves. Invention usually happens when we step outside of the bounds we have been given ... and approach the issue in a whole new way.

Good luck with your new tool ... may it provide you the results you seek.