Alright folks, talk to me about Canon ergonomics

[VTEC_EATER]

Edit:

Hold on, I hit enter accidentally... BRB

[VTEC_EATER]

Okay, I'm back.

So, I'm trying to help a friend find her first DSLR, and I'm pretty much going crazy trying to find what is the best of the intro DSLR's. Since she is not a beginner to photography, I am not allowing her to get the Nikon D40/40x/60. This moves over to the Canon camp in regard to price.

So I went out to the camera store and played with the XTi the other day and after a little playing around I started to understand a little of the ergonomics of the Canon system, but I'm still very confused about a great many things.

First off, whats the deal with the wheel on the top. Is it only there to adjust your shutter speed and aperture? I found that I can quickly (not nearly as quick as Nikon) adjust my focus point if I hold the "enlarge" button and scroll the wheel. And I thought that I could adjust some other things like ISO with it as well so long as I hold the ISO button down. However, for things like White balance I hold the button and scroll the wheel and my aperture adjusts. Or I want to change another setting so I hold the button and scroll the wheel, and nothing.

What settings can be adjusted with this wheel? With the Nikon's, it doesn't matter what button you are holding, you turn the wheel and it adjusts that particular function. Flash exposure compensation? Hold the flash button, and turn the wheel. WB? Hold and turn. Image quality? Hold and turn. That button is like the master switch for all the quick buttons on the camera. For the Canon, its hit or miss. Sometimes you adjust with the wheel, others you hit the button, have to look at the screen and use the 4 way button to make adjustments.

A big thing for me had to do with adjusting the focus point. Is there a quick way of doing this? I know it can be adjusted with holding the button and scrolling the wheel, and apparently, if you are still making adjustments, you can use the 4 way buttons to move to different ones out of the standard sequence. However, the second you touch the shutter button, you are stuck. Back to pushing the buttons and scrolling the wheel again. Is there a faster way of changing this very critical function? All I have to do on my Nikon is hit the 4 way pad in any direction and it moves where I want it to go. Regardless of any other settings.

Next has to do with the manner in how the camera is used. How many here use their left eye when looking through the view finder? How do you gain access to the little 4 way pad to the right of the screen? My nose is always in the way. I found that if I use my right eye, it frees up the whole camera and makes it worlds better. Fortunately for her, she uses her right eye, so this is good. I'm fine with the grip now, but that pad is really important for changing settings.

Also, the menu system. From the quick glance that I played with it, it didn't seem as though there were many settings that you could adjust in there. I understand that a lot of the settings are in the buttons on the back, but I'm having trouble with how to adjust them.

This is a serious post, and I'm not coming here to bash Canon for having strange ergonomics. I am actively searching and reaching out to all of you for your help. My friend is much like everyone else where she wants the biggest bang for the buck, but also cant just throw down $800 for a body only, so unfortunately the XSi is out.

Speaking of the XSi, I played with that one too, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to get into live view mode. Again, I couldn't find a quick key for it, and I couldn't find how to turn it on in the menu system. Maybe there was a button on the front, but they had a metal plate covering up the lens release potion of the camera. Maybe it was hiding under there. That would be a very odd place to have that function. In any case, I was a little upset. I was looking forward to seeing how its focus system worked in LV.

Anywho, please, lets try to keep this civil and not turn this into a Canon vs. Nikon thread. This is all about the Canon cameras.

[Nickcanada]

Well Nikons don't take good pictures so really who cares that Canon has bad ergos, you are still going to buy it! ...... jk :)

I don't think the XTi has live view.... does it? I don't remember all the little ins and outs of the Rebel series, but once you learn it and practice it, it becomes second nature. I'm sure your friend will like it.... or she could get a used 20D or something. Big improvement in the ergos department.

[Rooz]

have you or your friend handled a 30d ? the ergonomics of of the XXd bodies is fine imo.

[herc182]

Hmm...this is one of the main reasons I went for my D80...handling. I found that I could pick it up and intuitively change settings. The two wheels (front and back) are SO much easier to use than anything else I have tried. The XTi is not very nice to handle IMO since its small for a start, there is only one wheel and the settings just arent intuitive. Now this is me speaking having had a Nikon for little over a year. I have become accustomed to it. But from the outset, it was something that swayed the Nikon over a canon.

I have used an Xti (400D over here?) and canon 5D. The 5D is not that nice to use either, although it does have two wheels. However, my brother (who owns the 5D) struggles to change settings (but then he is not the most astute when it comes to using his camera!).

So bottom line is that I think the handling on canon cameras is not as good as on Nikon. However, if you buy into a system you get used to whatever you are using and soon wont have any problems. However if they pick up a Nikon and play with it for a while, I think most people would agree.

One thing Canon had at the time over Nikon, was better high ISO performance (Just). with the new processor now, thats not the case (e.g. D300 and D3).

Disclaimer: These are my opinions and not a global view. Not Canon bashing, just being honest :D

[michaelb]

I think it also depends what your used to. I tried out a D300 last week out of curiosity and I couldn't figure out how to do anything!! It felt incredibly foreign to me - I was completely clueless - "so how do I change to Av, etc?" - the sales guy must have thought I was an idiot!

I really like the real wheel on the Canons, but again that's proabably just because that's what I'm used to. I actually prefer Canon ergonomics, but if I was forced to use a Nikon for 6 months then I might change my mind. ;)

[AdamW]

I have an XTi/400D. It is a great camera. I actually like the small size. It isn't too small for my normal-sized man-hands, especially after using point-n-shoots. I like that it takes up less room in my bag.

However, I'm getting ready for an upgrade. (I'm looking forward to the 50D next year.) Here's what I want that the XTi doesn't have:
1. A second wheel. I don't like having to press a button and turn the wheel at the same time to adjust aperture in M mode.
2. An ISO button next to the shutter button and ISO info in the viewfinder. This allows you to adjust the ISO without taking the camera away from your eye.
3. A bigger & brighter viewfinder. My eyesight isn't great, and I have a hard time manually focussing on the XTi.
4. Live view and a bigger LCD.

I think the XSi/450D has all of these except the second control wheel.

[michaelb]

1. A second wheel. I don't like having to press a button and turn the wheel at the same time to adjust aperture in M mode.


Once you start using that rear wheel its hard to go back, especially if you shoot in manual. Another thing that also really helps with the XXD models is the joystick thing to change AF points - I find this very helpful.

[faisal]

won't a joystick be a big trouble in sandy places like UAE and may get spoiled...???(like how it gets spoiled on mobiles)

[VTEC_EATER]

won't a joystick be a big trouble in sandy places like UAE and may get spoiled...???(like how it gets spoiled on mobiles)

:confused:

How can it get spoiled? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by spoiled.

However, I would say that a joystick, or pad, that allows you to quickly adjust focus points is something that really should be on every camera. Super fast and easy adjustment of a very critical shooting tool. It surprised me that is was so complicated, and too rigid in its structure, to do on the Rebel Cameras.

I'm sure you get used to it over time, but I always hear people in the Canon camp praising the rear wheel, and the joystick, when they upgrade from the Rebel cameras.

I do like the Rebel's for their feature packed bodies, and budget oriented price point, but I am one of those people who cant give my "blessing" if I cant understand how to operate the camera easily.

Of course, my local Best Buy is having a clearance sale on a silver Rebel XT with the crap 18-55 (version I) for $389.00. Brand new. Thats pretty tempting right there. Is it bad that I'm almost considering that camera for myself? Hell, throw on a Sigma 18-200 OS, and you have a cheap and small travel DSLR.

Nah. Too much work to buy into another system for me.

[njoy_az]

Ergonomics was one of the big reasons I ruled the xxxD Series out. I love the layout of my 30D though. :)

just my .02 though (ymmv ;) )

[VTEC_EATER]

Well, she has set a $700 limit... Eeshhh, that tight. She also played with the Rebel XT and didn't like it at all. I told here that the XT is a pretty dated camera, and the XTi has improved ergonomics. I'll have her take a look at the XTi and see if it is any better.

She is pretty gung hoe on the D40. She likes the feel and the way it handles, which I suppose is most important, but I just cant get over the lack of features that cameras has. Great pictures or not, its so limited in my mind. Just the fact that you cant use the cheap 50mm on it is a huge thumbs down in my book.

Okay, so its between the D40 and the Canon XTi.

XTi is the clear winner for features
XTi is the clear winner for lens choices
D40 is the clear winner (in her mind) for ergonomics
D40 is a clear winner for ease of use/point & shoot
Size is a tie.

I think I will have to put together a package for both cameras for her to look at and decide.

[Nickcanada]

Hmmm, 700 bucks really is not a lot of DSLR money.... has she thought about a Canon s5? Or does she really need a DSLR?

I think the XTi is has the same body as the XT, I'm not 100 % on that but I'm pretty sure. They changed things up with the XSi though.

Also, has she thought about picking up a used camera? It's a nice way to get a better body without the extra cost.

[FLiPMaRC]

I don't think there's a big difference between the XT, XTi, and XSi bodies.

http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/0801/canon/canon450d400d.jpg

[VTEC_EATER]

There is a change in the build quality between the XT and XTi. The XT is really plasticy feeling, and the XTi just feels slightly more solid. It may have been just a change in texture, or even the plastic composition, but it certainly feels more solid. Also, the grip is the slightest bit larger on the XTi, which on that camera goes a long way. Unfortunately the XSi is out of her price range. Ive used it a little bit and it felt the best of the bunch. Definitely didn't feel small like the XT and XTi.

Ooh, just checked Amazon.com XSi w/ 18-55 IS for $869.99... Hmmm... thats still a little too much, even though it is a good price.

CostCo.com has the D40 w/ 18-55 and 55-200 VR for $599.00. And Adorama has the SB-400 flash for $109.99. Hmm, thats much more in the neighborhood, and a pretty decent little starter kit. Yeah a 50mm would be nice, but she will just have to either wait for Nikon to make AF-S primes, or have to deal with manual focus.

Ill talk it over with her.

Hmm, I will have to have her look at the D40 again and really

[jcanon701]

i like my xti because it's nice and small, but whenever i use my friend's 40D, it feels so much more secure. it fits my hand much better too.

[Visual Reality]

Sounds like she will get a lot farther with the D40 with her $.

[njoy_az]

Yup, I second that. It looks like the D40 is a winner in this case (it sounds like the "better" i.e. less expensive set - whilst maintaining a similiar IQ - and she seems to like it better anyway). That said I would still recommend a Canon xxD if her budget were to permit it.

[VTEC_EATER]

Yes, the budget thing is very limiting to her options. If her budget was $1000, then we are open to a lot more choices. If that were the case, I would go XSi w/ 18-55 IS, and a 50/1.8. The 30D is a nice camera, but the size would be too much for her. She said my Nikon D50 was fine, but anything larger and she would probably not like it as much. The XSi is almost the same size as my D50, just the slightest bit smaller, but it has a lot of features that many other cameras in the price range just do not have.

Anyways, I think I'll propose the D40 package, despite its limited feature set, in favor of "bang for the buck." The cameras now-a-days all take great pictures, and the D40 is very good at jpegs straight out of the camera. While I really enjoy doing post processing, she probably wouldn't want to mess around for a half hour adjusting one photo just so she can show it to people.

Anyways, thanks for all your help. If the D40 plan falls through, there is always me trying to convince her to spend another $150 and get an XSi. Ya never know.

[Gintaras]

this is funny when someone picks DSLR camera for pure ergonomics, speaking of which D40 wins over Xt/Xti/Xsi. Speaking of features it all depends if a person will be willing to make a progress or is just thinking about replacing P&S with some more serious yet compact stuff. i hear some people outgrow D40 quickly and regret then not having D80 or D200/D300...

so it is impossible to recommend anything in this case as ergonomics is so personal choice. i personally find Xti good enough for me, though a bigger camera feels steadier in hands.

[adam75south]

canon rocks. nikon sucks. end of story.

just make sure if you buy nikon you stick your pinky out when you're shooting. i don't know why, but it's a Nikon factory mandate. if you don't do it they will confiscate your camera and all pictures taken.

ok the truth is it's all the same. there's always eenie meenie miney moe.

have you considered a used 30d? i just bought one for $608 shipped with (supposedly) less than 15k shutter actuations. you could buy the kit lens and MAYBE the 50 1.8 without going too far over budget.

[VTEC_EATER]

The problem with the 30D is the size. She had mentioned she wanted to keep it small, so sticking to Canon's Rebel series was my first choice. The 30D I'm sure is great, but its pretty bulky and heavy.

She still hasn't made the purchase yet, and I told her to look at the XTi before she made any final decisions, but so far this D40 deal with 15-55 and 55-200 VR is pretty hard for her to pass up. Hell, she can get a small flash (SB400) for another $100 and those slow lenses will still work fine even in low light.

I mentioned the 50mm and she said that she is used to manual focus with her old Manual Canon SLR. I guess with a little practice she can get used to manual focus on a DSLR. Not quite as easy with these new cameras as it was with the old ones.

[adam75south]

thought about the S5 IS?

[VTEC_EATER]

thought about the S5 IS?

The S5IS can take some very nice photos, but you really cant compare it to an SLR camera. And she is really wanting to get into the SLR world again.