View Full Version : Why?
Why do people who know nothing about cameras or photography go out and spend hundreds of dollars on a DSLR?
I've been particularly amazed lately about the significant number of posts from people who have either just bought a DSLR or are about to buy a DSLR and ask the most basic of questions, such "What do all these numbers mean?" Since I lack the capacity to understand this sort of thing and it seems less than rational to me that people would spend so much money on something that they have no idea about...maybe someone can explain it to me???
I guess I'm wondering: How many people here...with more than 2 years active DSLR shooting experience...when they first bought a DSLR (or SLR) had a pretty good idea of what they were buying and why vs. buying first and trying to figure it all out later?
D Thompson
03-31-2008, 06:26 PM
I've been wondering the same thing for quite a while now. ;)
I got the 20D when it first came out and I finally decided to go digital. It replaced my Canon A1 which I'd used since the early 80's. I had a pretty good clue what the numbers meant :rolleyes:.
I get the distinct feeling that there are going to be lots of DSLRs sitting on the closet shelf right above the set of un-used golf clubs...;)
But hey...I guess without that sort of thing, the economy would be in even worse shape! :D
Nickcanada
03-31-2008, 06:41 PM
Well, I'll admit I was pretty clueless as to what all the #s meant. Well I was at the stage where I couldn't remember if a lower F stop # meant that I was letting more or less light into the sensor..... so I guess I knew a fair bit but it was all foggy. I definitely didn't to my homework properly. That's sort of the way I do things though. I get excited and jump in with both feet.
I found it much easier to learn on a DSLR then the canon A95 I was shooting with. P&S cameras are unnecessarily hard to learn manual modes on. When I first got my XT I went straight to Av and I don't think I've ever done any shooting in auto or P with my DSLR.
Sooo I guess I can understand how people would buy a DSLR without much knowledge about the basics but I don't think this forum can substitute practice and book.
What gets me are the people who want great photos and think all they need to do is buy a DSLR with a kit lens to achieve gallery work. I think most people think the hardest part is composition and if they only had a good camera their pictures would rival the "average/so-so" photos they see in magazines and on tv. I don't think the average person appreciates the time and dedication it takes to get good. The hours it might take to get a single good frame.
cdifoto
03-31-2008, 06:52 PM
Why do people who know nothing about cameras or photography go out and spend hundreds of dollars on a DSLR?
I've been particularly amazed lately about the significant number of posts from people who have either just bought a DSLR or are about to buy a DSLR and ask the most basic of questions, such "What do all these numbers mean?" Since I lack the capacity to understand this sort of thing and it seems less than rational to me that people would spend so much money on something that they have no idea about...maybe someone can explain it to me???
I guess I'm wondering: How many people here...with more than 2 years active DSLR shooting experience...when they first bought a DSLR (or SLR) had a pretty good idea of what they were buying and why vs. buying first and trying to figure it all out later?
Marketing campaigns.
I fell for the Canon ad. "Buy this Rebel w/kit lens and you too can take close ups of NFL players making winning catches from the nosebleeds."
Three years ago, I didn't know jack. I got my first dSLR in June 2005 and a month later was selling prints at a race track. I had no idea what I was doing but I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm just thankful I didn't waste all that money on film.
ssil2000
03-31-2008, 08:25 PM
Why do people who know nothing about cameras or photography go out and spend hundreds of dollars on a DSLR?
because they can.
the same reason why a 40 handicap buys 6000 bux worth of clubs and a year later he/she is still a 40 handicap...
the same reason someone buys a 5000 dollar laptop and all they use it for is email and skype...
the same reason someone buys a 50" lcd for the "other lounge room" and it gets switched on twice a year...
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
downtrodden
03-31-2008, 08:30 PM
I also think it has a lot ot do with ignorance. I think a lot of people think "i get decent results from my 200 dollar point and shoot, imagine how good a 700 dollar camera can do!" they don't understand that the dSLR doesn't do it automatically for you... this baffles my friends when i'm tinkering with settings and they go "why would you pay 1500 for a camera that you have to do all the work and all the thinking? I also get questions like "why would you spend 1000 on a lens when your 350 dollar point and shoot can zoom further?"
Which i thnk comes back to what has already been said, people don't know how much time and effort it takes to get a decent shot, much less a GREAT shot.
yeah yeah yeah, i haven't had my dSLR for over more than a couple months... but the point is still valid :P
downtrodden
03-31-2008, 08:31 PM
PS: Also, i think dSLR's are becoming a fashion statement especially amongst today's 'emo' youth who all have to be supremely artistic, because being supremely athletic is going out of style... I know a couple of teens on my myspace who own dSLRs and have no idea how to use them and don't use them for anything more than those typical myspace photos teens have... but somehow, using an SLR makes it 'artistic' blech!
talkingdog
03-31-2008, 09:54 PM
They are no longer the price of a car to get started(entry level). I made do with a p&s which got poor results indoors in most situations. The entry level dslr isn't much more than a high end p&s anymore. Doesn't mean we want to go pro, just get more keepers in various lighting conditions.
wilson44512
04-01-2008, 12:23 AM
well think of it this way. if no one asked any questions. then there wont be any body to start a thread about? lol
well think of it this way. if no one asked any questions. then there wont be any body to start a thread about? lolYou've got a point there! :D
They are no longer the price of a car to get started(entry level). I made do with a p&s which got poor results indoors in most situations. The entry level dslr isn't much more than a high end p&s anymore. Doesn't mean we want to go pro, just get more keepers in various lighting conditions.You've touched on the sub-text of my question...I don't think stepping up to a DSLR from a point and shoot guarantees any more "keepers" for some people. A lot of people get crappy results with their P&S and blame it on the camera, so they buy a DSLR. They think a DSLR is some kind of magic that takes amazing pictures just by pressing a button. They see all these great pictures from DSLRs online, but don't seem to realize that it's not really the camera. And they just wind up with different crappy results.
For someone like you it's different. You knew exactly what problem you were trying to solve by stepping up.
cdifoto
04-01-2008, 01:23 AM
But then again there are some truly sh!t P&S cams out there...and they're pretty much all useless for shooting your highly mobile kids indoors for example. As much as I like my little Fuji, I do have to break out the dSLR, gLass, and Speedlite to get results when it's anyone moving around in my home. I wouldn't need the L glass per se, but I don't have any USM non-L in that range.
Of course that's a result of already pushing the Fuji beyond it's limitations and knowing there's nothing more I can get out of it under those conditions.
Shooting random stationary stuff in broad daylight isn't a challenge for any camera these days, so if you're getting poor results in those conditions, it's highly unlikely to be the camera at fault.
ever seen an old man driving a ferrari or a chick driving a porsche ? nuff said, close the thread now pls.
erichlund
04-01-2008, 08:55 AM
Paul Newman is old. He still drives reasonably well. ;) So does Danica Patrick (Sp??). What's age or sex got to do with driving a fast car???
As far as not knowing the numbers, what does it really matter. In this day and age, if you really decide that you made a mistake, you don't take a huge loss, you just ebay it.
I had been shooting with an SLR since the early 80s(Canon AE-1, later EOS 2, EOS 3). I knew exactly what I wanted(10D), and I had a pretty good idea of what all of those #s meant.
I also pretty much knew exactly what I wanted my kit to look like, what lenses I wanted, what focal lengths I wanted.
Unfortunately my passion is landscapes and that's a tough market, on top of that I am a perfectionist and lack confidence. So it's an expensive hobby for me.
DonSchap
04-01-2008, 10:06 AM
Frankly, I just got tired of using my cellular camera for everything (see below). :p
34507
Now, isn't that something? Digital Technology at it's finest. Pocket convenience so you can shoot the spouse an email of that sexy, new car you had on your mind.
34509
cdifoto
04-01-2008, 10:13 AM
Holgaphone?
DonSchap
04-01-2008, 10:18 AM
Holgaphone?
More like "hold-the-phone." :D
ever seen an old man driving a ferrari or a chick driving a porsche ? nuff said, close the thread now pls.No...because now the sole purpose of this thread's existence is to annoy you! :D:D:D
FLiPMaRC
04-01-2008, 10:42 AM
I think I pretty much know what all the "numbers" mean, even though I don't have a DSLR :D
Some very good points were already mentioned, one was price. People do it all the time. Do you know how many people buy cars everyday and all they know about a car is how to drive it? And some don't even know how to drive :p
01514
04-01-2008, 10:49 AM
ya and y ppl buy ferraris if they can do same trip in a ford :)
DonSchap
04-01-2008, 11:16 AM
"There is just something about the feel of the breeze through your hair ... at 220MPH!"
34515
Your pal,
Enzo
raven15
04-01-2008, 11:24 AM
Agree with flipmarc. I knew what the numbers meant when using my P&S, but had no motivation to go through menus to change them individually. I knew exactly what I would be gaining and losing by going DSLR, and had very specific reasons for everything I purchased.
As for other people, I guess that even if their technique isn't great and they aren't photographers, they suspect that dSLR's will provide better image quality to the shots they would take anyhow. They are largely correct.
Though an image-stabilized P&S with an f/2.8 lens will equal an unequipped entry level SLR with kit lens and no IS in low light, I am fairly certain. For instance, Canon Xti with kit lens @1600 ISO vs. Canon A710IS @200 ISO? Pretty close, especially at the 55mm spot on the Canon kit lens, where it would be f/5.5 vs the A710 at probably f/4.
Thanks...good points all...you are greatly helping to understand some of the motivations! :)
I may know how to use a camera, but I'm pretty stupid when it comes to understanding people! :D:D:D
Although, after just reading another "What do these numbers mean?" posts (after they bought the camera!), I'm wondering if the same person would have bought a car and then posted online asking "What do the numbers and letters on this knob mean?" Forget everything I said above. I'm back to square one. I don't get it and never will...
Rooz, my friend, you are right...this quest is pointless! :D:D:D
Stephie Baby
04-01-2008, 12:08 PM
Hmm.... I have to admit that I was one of those people who didn't know much about photography, but before I got my SLR I read and read and read and read about them. I still read about photography! I knew a little bit from classes I took in high school and I was always interested in it. I only had a P&S when I upgraded, but I knew that I had the passion for photography. My camera isn't in closet, and it never will be. Lol.:D
I have friends who know absolutely nothing about photography. The only reason some of them want an SLR is because they think they will get the "professional picture look" it that makes any sense. They think it all comes from the camera, not editing, lenses, or talent!! Lol.
DonSchap
04-01-2008, 01:51 PM
Well ... they were getting some amazing results with a heck of a lot less, not that long ago. Photography is still a rather young art form.
I have to ask: If a DSLR was all you could buy ... and there were no P&S cameras around ... would it still make a sound ...
when you accidentally dropped it on the floor?
34516
Talk about some amazing "numbers!!!" This is a Ds laying there. You bumblers may reply ... LOL :D
Hear that? The sound of open weeping ... yeah, another photographer who trusted his tripod just a little too much.
born2snooze
04-01-2008, 02:14 PM
I have a feeling you are talking about me here... :D
If not, well, I'm one of those people, but my excuse is I have one of those syndrome, where I can not focus to one thing, my mind is always racing and jump everywhere. And oh, English is not my first language, and I had to learn from English speaking book or tutorials on the internet.
But I use my camera everyday since that day I ask the question about the numbers. (Actually, I still dont really get the mm numbers :p , if somebody would like to explain here like you would explain to a 6 years old, I will be grateful).
But I got the hang of DOF, aperture, shutter speed and ISO. Check out my flikr link, I think my photos are not so bad. And my new Canon sleep with me, I use it everyday. It will never sit in the corner getting dusty. ;)
.
downtrodden
04-01-2008, 02:15 PM
Psh Don.. i bet one could still get a decent 4x6 out of that!!! :cool:
:D:D:D:D
born2snooze
04-01-2008, 03:57 PM
Thank you downtrodden for the info, I changed the title of that one pic. :D
tim11
04-01-2008, 04:24 PM
---it has a lot ot do with ignorance. I think a lot of people think "i get decent results from my 200 dollar point and shoot, imagine how good a 700 dollar camera can do!"
---
I think that's spot on.
I remember many many years back when my cousin bought a state of the art Canon SLR worth thousands. He couldn't understand why his photos were always too dark or too bright. The photos from my compact PnS spinned out much better photos. I couldn't explain why either back then.
I went to the zoo yesterday and I noticed that not less than 7 out of 10 people who carried SLR stood back from glass surroundings of the animals and shoot with flash.
On the same line, just ask how many people who drive 4x4 vehicles take them off the paved roads?
zqfmbg
04-01-2008, 08:32 PM
Heh, I de-lurked just to respond to this post.
I guess I'm guilty of precisely what JTL said in the first post. I was looking to replace an aging P&S (Sony DSC-P5, bought something like 6 or 7 years ago) and, looking over reviews and comments on cameras, found that the current crop of entry-level DSLRs was only about $100 to $200 more than the P&Ses I think I was eyeballing at the time. From there it was just a matter of deciding whether I wanted to stick my neck out and try something new.
Had I known then that there are P&Ses with manual setting capability, I might have gone that way instead. But I can't say I regret my leap off the cliff. To give you an idea of just how clueless I was, I didn't have *any* concept of what aperture was when I started playing with it. I remember reading in a guide the general suggestion of "well, go out, take lots of pictures of everything, try it out, see what you think".
In 3 months of ownership, and about 8000 pictures later, I can safely say my hit rate is probably under 1%, possibly even under 0.1% (that's 8 pictures for those who need the math help). But it's been fun, and more importantly, I notice now that the way I look at things has changed substantially. Doesn't mean that it's still any good, but I like to think I'm starting to get somewhere, even if that somewhere is just the realization of how much there is still to learn. Maybe to more seasoned people, that still qualifies as a waste, but that's fine by me. :)
(For those who wonder: the camera's an E-510. Around the first 200 pictures were in auto mode with flash, and then I realized I could turn it off. The combination of auto mode flash and auto mode constantly resetting the noise reduction settings on power-on led to me trying out aperture-priority mode for the first time, which led to having to think about exposure for the first time. Things just kind of went from there.)
talkingdog
04-01-2008, 09:02 PM
I think this happens in almost everything. When I used to have an off shore boat(always found that term odd) I would sit and wait for people to learn how to back a trailer at the launch. I watched one guy sink his dually, forgot to put it in park and set the brake. People in Vettes going 10 under the speed limit, and on and on. In a nutshell its America thats what we do, buy more than we need:D
I have to ask: If a DSLR was all you could buy ... and there were no P&S cameras around ... would it still make a sound ...
when you accidentally dropped it on the floor?
34516
Talk about some amazing "numbers!!!" This is a Ds laying there. You bumblers may reply ... LOL :D
Hear that? The sound of open weeping ... yeah, another photographer who trusted his tripod just a little too much.Heavens, Don! No wonder you switched to Sony. That Canon obviously could't stand up to the abuse!!! :D:D:D
I have a feeling you are talking about me here... :D
Nope. I honestly wasn't. :)
Why...don't tell me...you had one of those posts too? Now, how did I miss that? :D:D:D
Heh, I de-lurked just to respond to this post.Welcome aboard, mate! Now you're part of the community. Don't be a stranger...:)
Plenty of folks here can help you get better at!
erichlund
04-02-2008, 08:20 AM
I think this happens in almost everything. When I used to have an off shore boat(always found that term odd) I would sit and wait for people to learn how to back a trailer at the launch. I watched one guy sink his dually, forgot to put it in park and set the brake. People in Vettes going 10 under the speed limit, and on and on. In a nutshell its America thats what we do, buy more than we need:D
Yes, it's usually preferred that they all remain off shore unless you want to get out. Then they need to be on shore or at dock. Unless, of course, you have another boat to act as go between. Or swim for it. :eek:
fotogmarc
04-02-2008, 10:33 AM
Everyone has what they consider a good reason to buy a Dslr. Some think it will improve their ability, others want to look good carrying it around. My first clue is seeing them never move out of 'auto' mode for any and all shots. If it makes them happy, great, it'll give the 2nd hand market more product.
The biggest joke I saw was an acquaintance who purchased an XTi and tried to show the shots he says he took on his iphone. You know the ones that come with the phone: the full moon, the colored water drop, etc. Claiming they were his! :eek:
By that way did you guys like that photo I took of Farrah Fawcett in 1976, where she's wearing an orange one piece and a big smile? ;)
DonSchap
04-02-2008, 12:12 PM
... By that way did you guys like that photo I took of Farrah Fawcett in 1976, where she's wearing an orange one piece and a big smile? ;)
My God! That was your work? The poster copy rights to that one must still be pouring in. :rolleyes:
It may be true that there are those people who have been convinced a DSLR is the right way to go, by BEST BUY sales staff ... but, then again, ol' BEST BUY could be getting a lot of returns when the actual images end up not looking anything like the anticipated images.
Not everyone has to go to photography school to operate a SLR camera ... but, it would not hurt. It usually takes months of practice shots and really understanding exposure (hey, know there's a novel title, eh?) to be able to come up with consistent photographs.
Generally speaking, the P&S camera more than likely takes care of all that. Heck, it even selects focusing based on face recognition, these days (I wonder if that works on dogs?).
So ... yeah ... a man/woman should know his/her limitations when it comes to producing results from their weapon of choice. It applies to almost everything. :o We came to learn, right? This isn't such a bad place to ask for help. :cool:
cdifoto
04-02-2008, 12:21 PM
Heck, it even selects focusing based on face recognition, these days (I wonder if that works on dogs?).
It hasn't found my dog's face yet, but it did pick up 2 spots on my carpet that I didn't even know were there.
It hasn't found my dog's face yet, but it did pick up 2 spots on my carpet that I didn't even know were there.ROT(spotted)FLMAO! Can I send you the dry cleaning bill for the pee in my pants? :D:D:D
Why should I keep my D300? I'm ready to go back to a P&S !
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=27389088
man this made me laugh my ass off. quite relevant to this thread too.
Why should I keep my D300? I'm ready to go back to a P&S !
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=27389088
man this made me laugh my ass off. quite relevant to this thread too.I will gladly take that D300 off his hands and give him all my P&S cameras! :D
Which brings me to something else...is it such a struggle? To me, whether someone gets decently proficient or not is more about the type of person someone is to begin with. Take driving for example...the worst drivers are usually:
1. The most thoughtless
2. The most careless
3. The stupidest
It takes commitment to build skill. But, tying this back to my original question, people like that guy should make it their business to know what it is they're commiting to...instead of assigning the blame elsewhere.
I noticed that guy didn't say..."Gee...I must be a complete incompetent idiot loser...I can't manage to get a decent picture out of one of the best cameras ever made...". He likes his P&S images better...and some people actually like McDonalds. Who am I to judge? ;)
Is that too controversial? Am I being too harsh? :D:D:D
cdifoto
04-02-2008, 01:22 PM
He likes his P&S images...and some people actually like MacDonalds. Who am I to judge? ;)
Hey now. I like both McDonald's AND my P&S images. The former in moderation of course. And I actually prefer Burger King, also in moderation. The P&S images, on the other hand, I have no self-control.
Hey now. I like both McDonald's AND my P&S images. The former in moderation of course. And I actually prefer Burger King, also in moderation. The P&S images, on the other hand, I have no self-control.Ha! Ha! I added the all important word "better". Because I like my P&S images too! But I know they are not "better" in any objective sense.
As far as eating McDonalds goes...well I guess its maginally better than eating the crap directly from the cow's ass...:p:p:p
fionndruinne
04-02-2008, 01:35 PM
In-N-Out makes McDonald's look like the pathetic grease-bucket they are.
Kind of like Nikon vs. Canon.
In-N-Out makes McDonald's look like the pathetic grease-bucket they are.
Kind of like Nikon vs. Canon.Now, now...comparing Nikon to a "pathetic grease-bucket" like McDonalds is not in the spirit of this thread, this forum or this site. ;)
Play nice or don't play.
cdifoto
04-02-2008, 01:45 PM
Yeah fionn, Nikon is certainly NOT a grease-bucket. You should be ashamed of yourself talking about your own kit that way.
fionndruinne
04-02-2008, 02:03 PM
What are you talkin' about, guys? I didn't add that last remark; I think it was the webmaster!
downtrodden
04-02-2008, 02:13 PM
In-n-out burger is pretty freakin' boss. Got to have it last time i took a trip out to Cali...
All I know is that when I'm thinking about in-n-out, I'm not thinking about burgers!
What a bunch of Homer Simpsons! :D:p:D
downtrodden
04-02-2008, 02:24 PM
A lil bit of the ol' in and out eh JTL? How bout a bit of the ultra violence too?
A lil bit of the ol' in and out eh JTL? How bout a bit of the ultra violence too?Govoreet the slovos? Horrorshow!
One of my favorite books. Loved the movie as well...there are no words adequate for Kubrick, IMO...
fionndruinne
04-03-2008, 12:19 AM
Truthfully, In-N-Out is almost better than sex.
cdifoto
04-03-2008, 12:37 AM
Truthfully, In-N-Out is almost better than sex.
I think that would depend entirely on who's eating what or whom and/or what or whom he or she is eating.
downtrodden
04-03-2008, 12:46 AM
I think that would depend entirely on who's eating what or whom and/or what or whom he or she is eating.
agreed whole heartedly... I prefer Spanish to American cuizine.. but that's just me...
erichlund
04-03-2008, 07:47 AM
Truthfully, In-N-Out is almost better than sex.
Dude. It's a fast food hamburger. I make better at home.
Get a crowbar and pry open your wallet and splurge on a really good restaurant. Something there is only one of, but that people keep coming back to because the food is superb, despite it being expensive. Or at least go to Fuddruckers or Red Robin and get a decent hamburger.
FLiPMaRC
04-03-2008, 08:44 AM
LMAO! Now it's a discussion on the best burges ... LOL! :D
talkingdog
04-03-2008, 10:54 AM
I should not have looked at this thread before lunch. It seems to have been derailed a bit.
LMAO! Now it's a discussion on the best burges ... LOL! :DOr is it? :cool:
Its really all the same thing. If people made it their business to know what was in those "burgers" they might have made different choices...;)
Burgers, cameras, cars, partners...the more I think about it the more I think its all the same.
I should not have looked at this thread before lunch. It seems to have been derailed a bit.Nah! See my comments above...I can rationalize anything! :D:D:D
Or at least go to Fuddruckers or Red Robin and get a decent hamburger.ARRRRRHHHHHHH!!!! ARRRGGGHHHHHHH!!! In my neighborhood (Midtown East/Upper East Side), people would rather eat off the street!!! :eek::p:D.
Also, to get back to camera geekdom, everyone that I know around town who owns and regularly uses a DSLR (or SLR) uses theirs for professionally related activities. I don't know any pure "hobbiests".
DonSchap
04-03-2008, 12:39 PM
I truly believe there might be a better way to teach Photography to the masses ... but (which means just forget everything I said up until the word "but"), I'll be darned if I can say what that might be.
But (there it is, again!), I do believe. :D
I've been going over some photographic odds and ends, over in the SONY DSLR forum, with the "Sparkster." Which also makes one ask, if I have bag full of odds and ends ... and I give all but one away ... what am I left with, an "odd" or an "end"? Anyway ... forget that ... that fact is, there's really a lot to this stuff. No overnight explanation will even get you close. Work and practice ... that's the key.
And if I practice just enough, maybe ... just maybe, this will work! :rolleyes:
erichlund
04-03-2008, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erichlund
Or at least go to Fuddruckers or Red Robin and get a decent hamburger.
ARRRRRHHHHHHH!!!! ARRRGGGHHHHHHH!!! In my neighborhood (Midtown East/Upper East Side), people would rather eat off the street!!! :eek::p:D.
Also, to get back to camera geekdom, everyone that I know around town who owns and regluarly uses a DSLR (or SLR) uses theirs for professionally related activities. I have yet to meet a pure "hobbiest".
Originally, the Fuddrucker's out here had their own butcher in the restaurant. You got fresh ground beef cooked to order, and you topped it yourself. And the fries were from, amazingly, real potatoes. There aren't too many left. I guess quality can't compete with built in playgrounds and kids meals.
Red Robin is a bit more hit and miss. I realize some people don't like it because of the crowds. You used to get cooked to order, but a lot of the restaurants now insist on at least medium. I don't quite want it to moo at me, but I prefer medium rare. There are also a lot more options. If all else fails, alcohol can save the day. :D
I truly believe there might be a better way to teach phoptgraphy to the masses ... but I'll be darned if I can say what that might be. But, I do believe. :DWell...I do think that the various websites/forums are doing a great service in some respects. For instance, more and more people now realize that more megapixels are not necessarily better. I totally credit the forums with that. Or as you have pointed out on more than one occasion, there are legitimate choices to be made as far as the most basic feature/functionality goes and the forums are a great quick sanity (or insanity :p) check. But, even with this avalanche of information, I believe that most people today still think that a DSLR is some kind of "magic box". When we grew up, even for the hobbyist, SLR photography was a skill to be acquired. No one assumed they'd pick up an SLR and get better pics. But, that seems to be the expectation today.
I think CDI (AKA "the other Don") is 100% right. It's the marketing machines at the camera companies that are driving this and leading a lot of consumers down a path they probably have no business going down to begin with. But, more money for the camera companies means more and better gear for the rest of us, so maybe everything is as it should be. But, it’s also because a lot of camera geeks like us push DSLRs down people’s throats without assessing if they know what they’re getting in to. ;)
I don't think there are any shortcuts. People need to learn the basics now just as much as they did back in the day. But I think teaching/learning should come before the buying. I think that people should have a basic understanding what a DSLR is, the rudimentary basics of photographic principles and understand the very basic reasons for getting a DSLR in the first place...which is where I guess this thread started.
In the end, it's really about me (isn't everything? :p) being unreasonably annoyed by a lot of stupid questions that I could just as easily ignore. But I knew that if I was thinking about it, others must be too...:)
downtrodden
04-03-2008, 01:24 PM
But I knew that if I was thinking about it, others must be too...:)
So... someone else here enjoys midget jello wrestling too!? :eek:
j.k. j..k. j.k. all the talk about in-n-out... sheesh...
:D:D:D:D
If all else fails, alcohol can save the day. :DAmen, brother! :D
You can even clean your lenses with it...190 proof that is! ;)
So... someone else here enjoys midget jello wrestling too!? :eek:
j.k. j..k. j.k. all the talk about in-n-out in the other thread... sheesh...
:D:D:D:DDon't you mean "little people" jello wrestling? :D:p:D:p:D
We're striving to be a P.C. forum after all!
DonSchap
04-03-2008, 02:38 PM
Hey ... we really need to stop fooling ourselves, here, for a minute (because, that's just about the average attention span of the typical teenaged-blockhead.)
Having a DSLR is a terrific way to learn photography. I can honestly say, people don't learn a lot from a P&S camera ... they've just solved the problem of not have to use their noggin for something more than a hatrack. The camera does a lot of problem solving ... but rarely explains why. I defy the average P&S user to explain what the camera just did to take the shot, other than ... trip the shutter.
As good as they may be, the P&S is still an "insta-matic." To truly grasp the intent of photography and the writing with light ... it's still the in (D)SLR. Questions abound, for sure, but, in those subtle and often repeatedly asked questions are the secrets to what makes this a great, great hobby.
Start with the following settings:
Set to Manual Mode (M)
Aperture: f/4
Shutter Speed: 1/60 sec
ISO: 400
Now, go shoot something! :D And adjust!
Visual Reality
04-03-2008, 03:07 PM
Don, many "P&S" cameras have full manual controls for shutter, aperture, ISO, and almost everything else. For example, I use my S3 IS in the same manner that I use my D80 - in Aperture Priority to control DoF until I run into a spot where I need more shutter speed. I don't agree with the argument that they are simply insta-matics. A lot of them are, but not all of them. Heck even my F31fd has manual controls.
There really isn't a whole lot more about my D80 that lets you "learn" any more than you could with some of the higher end P&S cameras. With that said though, I have learned a lot more simply due to my pursuit of the hobby (lots of reading, research, personal testing). In that regard it has had an impact on me, but I haven't necessarily learned more from the camera itself.
DonSchap
04-03-2008, 03:19 PM
Don, many "P&S" cameras have full manual controls for shutter, aperture, ISO, and almost everything else ...
It is hard to word this correctly, w/o someone objecting. The real point of the Point & Shoot camera is to eliminate the "knowledge curve" as much as possible. Make the average bozo capable of taking substantially better shots than if they simply had a raw camera to do it. Average Dad is suddenly a photographic genius, just by opening the box, popping in the 16MB give-a-way memory card, learning to turn it on, turning around and snapping an image of Average Mom!
Sure, there are bastardized versions of the P&S that provide manual controls, but by-and-large, they are not what most people are looking for ... they want point and fire! An instant image Grandma and Grandpa, holding "Junior" and Sis, with close to perfect lighting. An image of the Sears Tower, as they walk up to elevate to 1000 feet over the Chicago skyline. A reflection of the camera's flash :eek: as they try to get an image of "Bushman", the old Lincoln Park Zoo gorilla who shook hands with a zoo attendant and took the guy's arm off in the process! Unfortunately, the gorilla's stuffed remains are inside a glass coffin, on display in the entry hall (Tough shot, with a pop-up flash). A shot of the CUBS actually winning a game! (you don't see that everyday) Get the P&S and snap it quick, it won't last long.
True, some P&S cameras offer manual control ... my question then becomes: What percentage of people ever think or take the time to use them? Guessimate: 2%, if we're lucky (You are in there, somewhere).
I hope that clears up what I was trying to explain ... if not, the day goes on. :D I don't sell 'em, it's just a comment.
cdifoto
04-03-2008, 03:57 PM
I bought my P&S so that I could stop thinking about my images' exposure for a change. Honestly, even if it had full manual controls, I wouldn't use them much.
However, if the fake M (actually a P mode) wasn't well programmed, I would surely have returned the camera. It's right about 90% of the time without adjusting anything (letting auto ISO do its thing and 0 EC), and really that's good enough for me...and it's rather predictable as well. I won't be using it on any paid shoots though, except maybe out of curiosity.
It is hard to word this correctly, w/o someone objecting. The real point of the Point & Shoot camera is to eliminate the "knowledge curve" as much as possible.Exactly.
But my point is that a lot of people seem to think lately, especially with the advent of the sub-$500. DSLR, that there is no knowledge curve with a DSLR either! They think it's just a better camera! Click and magic...great pictures just pop out! A lot of people ask me "If I get a DSLR, will my pictures be better?" I tell them the truth...that unless they're willing to invest the time...no, their pictures will probably look worse to them (relative to the high contrast, over-saturated super-sharpened way that they're use to seeing from their P&S)! They don't want to hear "Learn to use the camera you already have first" or "Try taking a little more care with your composition" or "Learn when and when not to use the flash" or "Open up your user guide and learn about ISO and white balance". They want the magic. And they think a DSLR is that magic. But without some serious knowledge to go with it...it's just snake oil. But, let's face it, if your pictures suck...it's not your fault...it must be the camera's fault! Right? ;););)
I'm not talking about the people who are out to learn from the beginning and are serious about pursuing photography as a form of expression or a way to document their family or just as a hobby or a path to some income. I'm talking about vast masses of the totally clueless...
And the 2%(?) of P&S shooters who decide to use manual controls...well there's a good percentage of DSLRs sitting around collecting dust because people realized after the fact "I don't have time for this!". Plus I bet more than 90% of new DSLR users never take their cameras off Auto. So, that shiny new DSLR is just a glorified P&S/instamatic anyway. That's the only "fooling ourselves" that I see! :):D:)
I just say, let's just tell it like it is...it will feel good...I promise. :cool:
cdifoto
04-03-2008, 04:38 PM
But my point is that a lot of people seem to think lately, especially with the advent of the sub-$500. DSLR, that there is no knowledge curve with a DSLR either! They think it's just a better camera! Click and magic...great pictures just pop out!
It probably would be if Fuji had any say in how the auto modes were programmed. :D
It probably would be if Fuji had any say in how the auto modes were programmed. :DYeah...and then we'll have people posting perfectly exposed pictures of stop signs, featureless walls and non-descript shrubbery...all looking for positive feedback. Wait...that's what we have now! :eek::p:D
DonSchap
04-03-2008, 07:27 PM
Look, I know we can banter back and forth about the merits of "knowledgeable" DSLR photography over P&S "Magic Boxes" ... but the fact remains, you've got sales people and marketing forces that are after the almighty buck. Perhaps a number of us have done a disservice to others by allowing them to believe that if they do invest in a "decent" DSLR system, they can turn out highly coveted images and works of wonder.
Well, the fact is ... still, that they can. Just not right at the moment. They haven't paid their dues with using the camera, even if they did have a Canon EOS 1Ds and a bucket full of "L" glass to chose from, or a Nikon D3 and all their high-end pearls of crystallized sand ... or even the much sought α900 and the Carl Zeiss™-glass assortment. It just doesn't matter ...
YET.
What does matter is the investment ... the learned art ... not the instantaneous result. With film, a lot of technique was learned in the darkroom as well as in the hands of the shooter. You didn't deliver excellent work from the corner drug store, you did it all yourself ... at home, in the basement or personal lab. Today is indeed ... different. With digital manipulation, you can take a rather diseased looking image and turn it into something spectacular. Imagination can go a long way even after the shot is taken.
Still ... as I hold my own camera in my hand, I know that it is "my vision" I am trying to shoot ... and not just the subject. I know what I am trying to acheive, when I concentrate on it. Most new shooters and even some people who have owned cameras for years still don't have a flippin' clue. They pop the shutter and pray for a clean result. They usually take one shot ... then walk away, not understanding they have nearly unlimited film resources with a digital camera. I don't even know professionals who count on one shot.
Photography is as much in the heart as it is in the tool you use. The best tools with no heart are just expensive toys. The chances of them producing anything of worth will be rare, if not just impossible.
If you are buying a DSLR camera, be prepared for some serious work ahead. Great pictures rarely happen by accident. It usually takes many considerations, a well developed knowledge of cause and effect, your understanding of light and, then of course, the bane of all photographers, the cooperation of your subject. :rolleyes:
This discussion has exposed some dandy aspects you just won't hear in the marketplace. I would suggest that it has placed the spotlight on the one thing you simply cannot do a decent job without:
KNOWLEDGE
Take your images, study your work, study other people's work ... and then ... Repeat cycle. <=
Learn and enjoy. :D
Oh, and ask "the pilot" where we're going ...
cdifoto
04-03-2008, 07:29 PM
Yeah...and then we'll have people posting perfectly exposed pictures of stop signs, featureless walls and non-descript shrubbery...all looking for positive feedback. Wait...that's what we have now! :eek::p:D
Hey don't bust on my shrubbery. :mad:
cdifoto
04-03-2008, 07:32 PM
Look, I know we can banter back and forth about the merits of "knowledgeable" DSLR photography over P&S "Magic Boxes" ... but the fact remains, you've got sales people and marketing forces that are after the almighty buck. Perhaps a number of us have done a disservice to others by allowing them to believe that if they do invest in a "decent" DSLR system, they can turn out highly coveted images and works of wonder.
Well, the fact is ... still, that they can. Just not right at the moment. They haven't paid their dues with using the camera, even if they did have an EOS 1Ds and a bucket full of "L" glass to chose from, or a Nikon D3 and all their hig-end pearls ... or even the much sought A900 and the Carl Zeiss glass assortment. It just doesn't matter ...
YET.
What does matter is the investment ... the learned art ... not the instantaneous result. With film, a lot of technique was learned in the darkroom as well as in the hands of the shooter. You didn't deliver excellent work from the corner drug store, you did it all yourself ... at home, in the basement or personal lab. Today is indeed ... different. With digital manipulation, you can take a rather diseased looking image and turn it into something spectacular. Imagination can go a long way even after the shot is taken.
Still ... as I hold my own camera in my hand, I know that it is "my vision" I am trying to shoot ... and not just the subject. I know what I am trying to acheive, when I concentrate on it. Most shooters don't have a flippin' clue. They pop the shutter and pray for a clean result. They usually take one shot ... then walk away, not understanding they have nearly unlimited film resources with a digital camera. I don't even know professionals who count on one shot.
Photography is as much in the heart as it is in the tool you use. The best tools with no heart are just expensive toys. The chances of them producing anything of worth will be rare, if not just impossible.
If you are buying a DSLR camera, be prepared for some serious work ahead. Great pictures rarely happen by accident. It usually takes many considerations, a well developed knowledge of cause and effect, your understanding of light and, then of course, the bane of all photographers, the cooperation of your subject. :rolleyes:
This discussion has exposed some dandy aspects you just won't hear in the marketplace. I would suggest that it has placed the spotlight on the one thing you simply cannot do a decent job without:
KNOWLEDGE
Take your images, study your work, study other people's work ... and then ... take more images. Repeat cycle. <=
Learn and enjoy. :D
Haha sad thing is whe you tell someone they're gonna have to learn it to get results, they scoff at you. I don't think the OP of this thread appreciated my initial response:
http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38287
Based on his first followup, he was after easy, not awesome. Sadly, that's the norm.
DonSchap
04-03-2008, 07:50 PM
... Based on his first followup, he was after easy, not awesome. Sadly, that's the norm.
I find that is the attitude of most youth, these days. Instant results. Too bad Michaelangelo, Rodan, Raphael, Lautrec, Van Gogh and DaVinci didn't feel the same ... the Grand Masters would have spared us their inspiration, eh?
"Normal" means 50% or more are doing it ... and that doesn't mean it's correct. I suppose with that kind of reasoning ... taking excellent images is downright ...
ABNORMAL!
Dread Pirate Roberts
04-03-2008, 08:48 PM
Plus I bet more than 90% of new DSLR users never take their cameras off Auto. So, that shiny new DSLR is just a glorified P&S/instamatic anyway. That's the only "fooling ourselves" that I see! :):D:)
:
As a culprit of leaving it on auto and being new to DSLR's I'd have to respectfully disagree. Switching the dial from P to P*,A,S or M does not make it non auto. Any time you're relying on the cameras metering you're in auto. And just thinking I want it a bit darker, lighter, shallower DOF than the camera "thinks" is right still doesn't mean you're not using auto metering as a crutch and using a little manual inspiration. In the "good old film days" people used charts or lightmeters - did that count as automatic assistance too?
In summary then I don't think taking the camera off auto and manually varying apperture, shutterspeed and iso to achieve a result really qualifies as non automatic shooting. I think the true skill being displayed by photographers on sites like this is composition, seeing things differently and having an idea and the skill to execute it.
I agree it's disconcerting to see the number of profoundly arrogant people that think buying a DSLR will make them a great photographer instantly. I remember one OP who wanted a $1000 DSLR so he could start publishing landscape callendars!
Sorry to rant but I don't like the implied put downs of auto dslr users by purists. Just my 2c worth.
DonSchap
04-03-2008, 08:55 PM
You mean there's an "AUTO" position on my DSLR? WTH? That's sacrilege! How could they? Oh man ... and all the time I was doing it ... MANUALLY. Wow, what will they think of next?
->Thunk<- ... I could have had a "V-8"! Maybe even a Hemi! Sorry ... I drift.
Okay ... forget everything I said .. it obviously missed the boat, anyway!
34655
downtrodden
04-03-2008, 09:08 PM
Eh, now you're splitting hairs Dread. JTL said take their cameras off auto mode. that's the little green box where the camera decides everything for you. The basis of this conversation is on learning aperture, shutter speed and ISO and how they affect your image's exposure (people saying "why are my pictures always dark"), sharpness (noobs asking "why are my pictures blurry") and other aspects of the image. Having to adjust shutter speed and aperture and ISO to what a light meter tells you is 'properly exposed" or depending on your taste and the camera "over exposed" or "under exposed" is not auto. Auto is short for automatically, meaning the camera automatically determines which settings are right, and being that there are MANY combinations of settings to get the same proper exposure reading, you still have to decide which is which and what will look like what and change the settings to the proper combo. Far from being AUTOMATICALLY done for you.
DonSchap
04-03-2008, 09:17 PM
But you can still throw "EV" (Exposure Value) changes at the "AUTO"-setting and have some customized control of what it makes an image of.
If it is too dark, at full lens aperture ... just add +2 EV ... all fixed. Better have a tripod ready, though, because your shutter speed just quadrupled!
downtrodden
04-03-2008, 09:20 PM
Don: I agree with something you said earlier and it got overlooked. You said that learning manual controls on a PnS is not any sort of substitute for learning on a DSLR and implied that learning on a DSLR is far superior to learning manual settings on a PnS. And i completely agree with you. if your ultimate goal is to get to using a DSLR, one should forgo the point and shoot.
I got my S3 to learn the basics of photography on so that one day i could step up to a DSLR. but i found recently when i bought my DSLR that i had to relearn how exposure and aperture affected my image, even ISO. why? many reasons, mainly on a PnS as we all know, aperture doesn't have a large impact on the image like it does on a dSLR. F2.8 vs. F5 on a PnS, there isn't a large difference, whereas, as you all know, F2.8 vs. F5 on a dSLR and the images looke VERY different. So one stepping up has to relearn what affect Aperture plays in the image taking process...
and then even PnS manual modes aren't really MANUAL... yeah you affect your exposure, but the images from manual mode PnS's look altogether different than images from a dSLR. the point and shoot images generally look 'more complete' to the average person, because the camera automatcially adjusts the color, contrast, sharpness etc. And yes, you can adjust thezse perameters in camera, but you'd be hard pressed to tone these affects down to the point that a dSLR image is- and same vice versa, you can crank up the sat., contrast and sharpness in camera all the way and still not get an image as conrasty, 'sharp' or saturated as the pioint and shoot.
So regardless of whether you used a PnS inmanual mode first, the learning curve ends up being the same on a dSLR anyway... because in the words of YODA;
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk194/Pan_Productions/Yoda.jpg
"You must unlearn what you have learned!"
Sorry for the long rant and i hope everyone understands what it was i was trying to say :X
downtrodden
04-03-2008, 09:24 PM
But you can still throw "EV" (Exposure Value) changes at the "AUTO"-setting and have some customized control of what it makes an image of.
If it is too dark ... +2 EV ... all fixed.
Right but the changes are made automatcially... the noobs we're talking about here wouldn't have an idea what the camera did to the settings to make it less dark- if they even knew you could adjust EV to get a different 'auto' exposure. If they know that, then they probably know enough about their camera to know what shutter speed and aperture and ISO are doing...
DonSchap
04-03-2008, 09:40 PM
"You don't know the power of the DSLR ... Obi-Wan never told about your lineage."
Look ... in the end, you choose your weapon of choice. The DSLR should be your goal if you truly want to make active choices in how you shoot, otherwise the P&S is the culmination of decades of experience and light measurement. It offers a "no-brainer" solution to most image opportunities and is wholly affordable.
The DSLR is not "affordable" ... it is a labor of love. It is like a girlfriend, demanding your dig deep into your wallet for her to deliver the variety of continued affection. If you stop paying, it grows stagnant. Invest a little more, the fun begins anew. A lot more and you have an entirely new game on your hands ... with some real "quality" advancements.
Sorry ... this analogy can get a little too risque'
downtrodden
04-03-2008, 09:51 PM
" Invest a little more, the fun begins anew. A lot more and you have an entirely new game on your hands
Spend too little on her and you might have something on your hands... then again... if you spend a lot... you might get something else on your hands... :eek :...Just ask Spitzer!
Risque!? naw...
:X
:D:D:D:D
Dread Pirate Roberts
04-03-2008, 11:01 PM
Crickey you guys can advance a thread in only a few minutes. Don't you have lives:D
I know Downtrodden that I was putting JTL's comments a bit out of context. I just wanted to highlight it's not "automatic mode shooters" it's "unthinking shooters".
Eh, now you're splitting hairs Dread. JTL said take their cameras off auto mode. that's the little green box where the camera decides everything for you. The basis of this conversation is on learning aperture, shutter speed and ISO and how they affect your image's exposure (people saying "why are my pictures always dark"), sharpness (noobs asking "why are my pictures blurry") and other aspects of the image. Having to adjust shutter speed and aperture and ISO to what a light meter tells you is 'properly exposed" or depending on your taste and the camera "over exposed" or "under exposed" is not auto. Auto is short for automatically, meaning the camera automatically determines which settings are right, and being that there are MANY combinations of settings to get the same proper exposure reading, you still have to decide which is which and what will look like what and change the settings to the proper combo. Far from being AUTOMATICALLY done for you.Thank you Corey...you do a better job of explaning what I mean than I do! :):D:)
That's exactly what I'm saying. Dread, you're officially out of line! And how dare you call me a purist!!! I'm a rebel, Dotty...(or is that I shoot a Rebel, Dotty?)!!! :D:p:p:p:D
I'm talking about the complainers who never took two seconds to learn what their camera does and come crying later...and then, to top it all off, put down the people who try to help them!!!
I just wanted to highlight it's not "automatic mode shooters" it's "unthinking shooters".Whew! Just when I almost thought I had to sign up for a "Communicating Effectively" course! :D:):D
Look, I know we can banter back and forth about the merits of "knowledgeable" DSLR photography over P&S "Magic Boxes" ... but the fact remains, you've got sales people and marketing forces that are after the almighty buck. Perhaps a number of us have done a disservice to others by allowing them to believe that if they do invest in a "decent" DSLR system, they can turn out highly coveted images and works of wonder.
Well, the fact is ... still, that they can. Just not right at the moment. They haven't paid their dues with using the camera, even if they did have a Canon EOS 1Ds and a bucket full of "L" glass to chose from, or a Nikon D3 and all their high-end pearls of crystallized sand ... or even the much sought α900 and the Carl Zeiss™-glass assortment. It just doesn't matter ...
YET.
What does matter is the investment ... the learned art ... not the instantaneous result. With film, a lot of technique was learned in the darkroom as well as in the hands of the shooter. You didn't deliver excellent work from the corner drug store, you did it all yourself ... at home, in the basement or personal lab. Today is indeed ... different. With digital manipulation, you can take a rather diseased looking image and turn it into something spectacular. Imagination can go a long way even after the shot is taken.
Still ... as I hold my own camera in my hand, I know that it is "my vision" I am trying to shoot ... and not just the subject. I know what I am trying to acheive, when I concentrate on it. Most new shooters and even some people who have owned cameras for years still don't have a flippin' clue. They pop the shutter and pray for a clean result. They usually take one shot ... then walk away, not understanding they have nearly unlimited film resources with a digital camera. I don't even know professionals who count on one shot.
Photography is as much in the heart as it is in the tool you use. The best tools with no heart are just expensive toys. The chances of them producing anything of worth will be rare, if not just impossible.
If you are buying a DSLR camera, be prepared for some serious work ahead. Great pictures rarely happen by accident. It usually takes many considerations, a well developed knowledge of cause and effect, your understanding of light and, then of course, the bane of all photographers, the cooperation of your subject. :rolleyes:
This discussion has exposed some dandy aspects you just won't hear in the marketplace. I would suggest that it has placed the spotlight on the one thing you simply cannot do a decent job without:
KNOWLEDGE
Take your images, study your work, study other people's work ... and then ...
Repeat cycle. <=Learn and enjoy. :D
Oh, and ask "the pilot" where we're going ...Of course you are right, Don. It's all about knowledge and the willingness/desire to learn.
But I do agree with CDI as well...You can tell by the initial question when someone is going to be dismissive about advice versus someone truly and honestly interested in acquiring knowledge and who is on the path to true enlightenment...:D
I recently had someone who wanted me to tell them that they made a good decision. Them: "So, did I get the right thing?" Me: "Why do you ask?" Them: "Because you know about this stuff". Me: "Well if you believe that then why didn't you ask me BEFORE you made the decision?" Them: "Well, just tell what do you think." Me: "What do I think? I think you should have asked me first". But that's not what they wanted to hear. They wanted to hear "Sure you made the right decision, you're a damn bloody genius!" They really didn't want my opinion, they just wanted unwarranted validation. Well, they weren't happy about the conversation. I say tough. If you don't want an honest opinion DON'T ASK! So, does that make me a better or worse person? ;)
DonSchap
04-04-2008, 06:59 AM
... If you don't want an honest opinion DON'T ASK! So, does that make me a better or worse person? ;)
Honestly? I was hoping you wouldn't ask ... :o
Honestly? I was hoping you wouldn't ask ... :oVery clever! :);):D
erichlund
04-04-2008, 08:55 AM
I suppose I should play a little devil's advocate here. Who made you all God? Why does someone have to be into SERIOUS photography to purchase a dSLR? Perhaps mom and pop are just tired of having pictures fail because the camera is not responsive enough, or they can't get a fast enough lens to show their pride and joy as anything but the demonic blur he or she really is.
Entry level dSLRs can be P&S cameras, if that's what meets the need of the user. They may need a little help getting the camera to give them the same quality of image they got with the P&S, but on auto, that should not take much. Frankly, they then don't need or want to know more than absolutely necessary. And that $500 entry level dSLR may be less expensive that some P&S cameras, and with just a little work, will provide far superior results.
I think we are also here to help those people, and it's perfectly OK that they come here knowing basically nothing. We just have to be smart enough to ask the right questions, so we don't try to turn them into something they don't have any interest in being. Give them the specific help that they need and let them move on with their lives.
Remember, the more people that buy dSLRs, the cheaper the cameras become. It's called economy of scale.
DonSchap
04-04-2008, 09:27 AM
Eric:
You do not have to play at "DA" ... your identity is well-known, so there's no starting to be modest, now. LOL :D
I do not believe there is a GOD-complex going on here. This is merely an exchange to get a grip on the rampant sillyness and arbitrary decision-making that some folks are having issues with. We're not omniscient nor anything more than a few guys pointing out some flawed thinking by individuals who either have too much money, higher expectation that can be assumed to be reasonable or are just not coming to terms with reality very well.
Declaring annoyance is a fair response in such situations, as long as decorum is observed. Discussing annoyance is even more actively accepted, as it invites additional comment and contrasting opinion.
So ... learn or burn under the fires of "the truth."
Rev. Don
I suppose I should play a little devil's advocate here. Who made you all God? Why does someone have to be into SERIOUS photography to purchase a dSLR? Perhaps mom and pop are just tired of having pictures fail because the camera is not responsive enough, or they can't get a fast enough lens to show their pride and joy as anything but the demonic blur he or she really is.Acting today as the anti-devil's advocate, we will now hear from JTL...
Members of the court, I submit for your consideration the following:
Dude. It's a fast food hamburger. I make better at home.
Get a crowbar and pry open your wallet and splurge on a really good restaurant. Something there is only one of, but that people keep coming back to because the food is superb, despite it being expensive. Or at least go to Fuddruckers or Red Robin and get a decent hamburger.Who's playing God now? Why does someone need a better hamburger? Does the defendant believe he is superior because he thinks he can make one better at home? I rest my case! :D:p:D;)
Remember, the more people that buy dSLRs, the cheaper the cameras become. It's called economy of scale.
A point I made way back in post #63!!! Maybe not quite as directly, but implied none the less. I know things are moving along rather briskly here at Rant Central, but please do try to keep up!!! :D:p:D
erichlund
04-04-2008, 12:45 PM
The reason I said what I did is I started seeing a lot of the use of "serious photographer" in the posts. The original question is something about why do people who know nothing about photography buy dSLRs. The real answer is simple. Because they can.
But when we start using that "serious photographer" phrase, I think we begin to take ourselves a little too seriously. And, if you haven't seen that as well, then you aren't trying very hard, because it's all over the place. It's rampant at DPReview, and not uncommon here.
DonSchap
04-04-2008, 12:48 PM
Oh, be serious! :p
There is significant handholding that goes on here, at DCRP. I cannot remember when a person hasn't offered assistance in an effort to seriously straighten out those in need. I'm being serious about the seriousness of this situation.
The serious photographer knows exactly what is meant by all of this, because they have taken the craft seriously. When you spend serious money or time on this hobby or profession, your respective interest-level is usually genuine. The flippant photographer does not do much more than "grab and go." Whatever shows up ... will be!
Anyone could have a serious problem if they are spending frivolously, in regards to photography. How many times have each of us kicked ourselves for spending when we didn't need to? We tend to know where we would rather spend our hard-earned cash. At least, I know where I would. Yes, I'm being serious! :eek:
(Seriously shaken ... not stirred)
downtrodden
04-04-2008, 01:19 PM
Seriously Don? :D
The reason I said what I did is I started seeing a lot of the use of "serious photographer" in the posts. The original question is something about why do people who know nothing about photography buy dSLRs. The real answer is simple. Because they can.And I (we) can comment as we wish...because I (we) can...;)
Seriously, you're taking this much too seriously! :D:p:D
Anyone who's serious about being serious should seriously consider the seriousness of not being serious...or serious, regardless of how seriously they feel about being serious or not serious.
Hey, maybe I should run for public office! :D
DonSchap
04-04-2008, 01:51 PM
One other aspect to this is posed in the novel, yet famously asked question, at post number 99:
"Why do people who know nothing about cameras or photography go out and spend hundreds of dollars on a DSLR?" (asked by the OP)
What goes around, comes around, I guess. :rolleyes:
Answer: I don't seriously know. (answered by a kind of serious forum member)
Observation: You can get seriously twisted by doing this, you know?
One other aspect to this is posed in the novel, yet famously asked question, at post number 99:
"Why do people who know nothing about cameras or photography go out and spend hundreds of dollars on a DSLR?" (asked by the OP)
What goes around, comes around, I guess. :rolleyes:
Answer: I don't seriously know. (answered by a kind of serious forum member)Thanks Don. I don't know either. Maybe I don't have a right to know...(as the OP sneakily adds yet another dimension to the discussion). ;)
Ray Schnoor
04-04-2008, 02:08 PM
Maybe I don't have a right to know...(as the OP sneakily adds yet another dimension to the discussion). ;)
Not seriously, anyway.
Dread Pirate Roberts
04-04-2008, 10:25 PM
Seriously I do not think it means what you think it means.
Erich just made the same point I did and still no one took it seriously. Why do I type here when no-one pays attention. Oh, isn't that one of your points?
JTL you were perspicuous but there was an implication of elitism.
Purveying yourself from the elitist position of the serious photographer is a bad thing, it's puritanical. You might end up being viewed as bombastic even.
It get's my blood up just thinking of the number of people who claim to be serious photographers "because they don't use auto mode". It's mentioned time and again here, other sites and in magazines. It's not the auto mode that makes you serious or not it's your intention.
And just being serious about photography doesn't make one a better person than an amatuer shooter who asks for and listens to a little advice here. For everyone who actively posts here there appears to be easily 10 people who just read the advice. Even if the OP doesn't listen I'm sure someone benefits from it.
downtrodden
04-04-2008, 10:49 PM
Do elitistists typically answer the question anyway? not that i've seen... and plenty of people here always answer questions or chime in in some way, no one is saying that because the OP gives an attitude or because they ask such a rudimentary question, it shouldn't be answered.. people still chime in anyway.
We're just complaining about people who do so. there's no harm in it. And if you go over to any other thread, i'm sure you'll see every person who's made a negative comment here, still politely answering even the most rudimentary of questions.. so why should anyone take you seriously when you complain that we're being elitists and complain that we're trying to prevent new people from learning- when clearly, no one is saying anything of the sort...
Well, I guess if someone has a D300 and leaves on it auto, they have one of the best P&S cameras that money can buy! :D
And, if someone wants to imply that I'm elitist well imply away. It doesn't make it so (oh boo hoo hoo...someone thinks I'm elitist...whaaa whaaaa...:rolleyes:).
Just like if I say someone is pretty damn lazy and maybe just a little clueless and NOT SERIOUS ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY (IMO) for spending close to $2000.00 on a camera and leaving it on auto doesn't make that so either! But, maybe some people feel a sense of guilt and shame for leaving their expensive new DSLR TOY on auto...maybe a sense of inadequacy for not understanding or being able to apply its full potential. Otherwise why would they would react in such a strident fashion? Why would they be so very, very defensive? ;)
We all have our opinions you know. :cool:
But I guess even having an opinion and daring to express it qualifies someone as an elitist!
downtrodden
04-04-2008, 11:34 PM
Yeah what JTL said.. his is better... and more... SERIOUS!
Yeah what JTL said.. his is better... and more... SERIOUS!Seriously! ;)
Another proud moment. Ooh ooh, :rolleyes:
Phill D
04-04-2008, 11:59 PM
I realise this thread was started on April 1st but wow it's got JTL & Don agreeing in it in places - I need to lie down!
I realise this thread was started on April 1st but wow it's got JTL & Don agreeing in it in places - I need to lie down!I was waiting for someone to notice! I should have had a prize ready! :D:D:D
I hope it's been at least semi-entertaining! Maybe a little to wry? ;)
downtrodden
04-05-2008, 05:52 AM
I realise this thread was started on April 1st but wow it's got JTL & Don agreeing in it in places - I need to lie down!
Hey, I dunno about JTL, but I for one, have learned that Don can sometimes be intelligent and rational... and shows that he can go an entire thread without peddling Sony's wares!!! I mean,. he could've derailed the entire train by saying something like "Hey guys, a noob can get a Sony and leave it in auto and have in body Stabilization... which means you Automatically get IS on all your lenses! Seriously, AUTOMATICALLY!!!"
AhHhHhhh.... ok, i'm seriously done now....
Nickcanada
04-05-2008, 06:11 AM
wow! I've missed a lot in this thread and I'm not going through the entire thread I just wanted to say. I bought a P&S to shoot in auto mode. I don't use my DSLR in auto because if I'm going to lug that heavy S.O.A.B. around it means I don't mind fliping a wheel around a few times to get the settings where I want them. There is nothing wrong with snap shooting but I'm not going to bust out the DSLR just to put it in auto, I'll bust out the P50 ;)
cdifoto
04-05-2008, 06:16 AM
wow! I've missed a lot in this thread and I'm not going through the entire thread I just wanted to say. I bought a P&S to shoot in auto mode. I don't use my DSLR in auto because if I'm going to lug that heavy S.O.A.B. around it means I don't mind fliping a wheel around a few times to get the settings where I want them. There is nothing wrong with snap shooting but I'm not going to bust out the DSLR just to put it in auto, I'll bust out the P50 ;)
This echoes what I said in an earlier post about the F40. It doesn't have manual controls and I don't even care. :D
DonSchap
04-05-2008, 10:26 PM
I wound up handing out my old Olympus C3000 to one of my co-workers heading over to Europe. It's a 3.1MP P&S and believe me when I say, it's really all she wanted to use. It takes the shot ... and true, zooming is a SOB for the up-close and personal blow-up shots, but still ... it collects images and that's that. Press the shutter and forget it.
Having experienced what I can do with a DSLR and all its features, I probably will not use the Olympus when it comes back, but it still makes a great little "car camera", for those times when you just don't have your "powerhouse" ridin' shotgun and really need to get a shot!
My DSLR is my "first choice", not only because of versatility, but because I understand its limitations. Let me spell them out for those of you who haven't figured it out yet, with the right lenses ...
THERE ARE NONE
@ Nick ... hey, go ahead and read through the thread ... good stuff in here.
cdifoto
04-05-2008, 10:33 PM
You're fooling yourself Don. dSLRs have limitations too.
DonSchap
04-05-2008, 10:43 PM
Comparatively speaking ... the DSLR runs rings around P&S cameras, in the hands of a "serious" photographer. LOL :p
Look Don, I know there are going to be differences of opinion here ... and all I can say to that is ... "so what?" We pick our weapons of choice.
Tony Stark said it best, in my opinion: "Some say the BEST weapon is the one you don't have to fire. I prefer the weapon you only need to fire ONCE. That's how Dad did it. That's how America does it ... and it's worked out pretty well, so far."
I happen to choose the proverbial "rocket launcher of photography." I humbly present the DSLR. Obviously, someone else can bring a pee-shooter to the fight. It is all about what you want with what you got! That's how I see it ... and those who view my work ... see it that way, too. Hey, they are MY images.
cdifoto
04-05-2008, 10:54 PM
Try to pocket that "rocket launcher" and be a normal family man on a normal family vacation.
DonSchap
04-05-2008, 11:03 PM
I shoulder "the launcher" in a sling bag, for the lightweight missions. Three lenses, camera body and flash. I'm comfortable with it ... and the wife purse-totes her Canon S5 IS (her choice, not mine) for the average tourista stuff.
I didn't drop a couple of grand to have it stay home, collecting dust. Heck, I'm often looking for reasons to take it along!
34720
You never know what might drop in ... or on! :eek:
Psst: see the "pee-shooter" that guy on the right hand side of the frame is holding up? LOL - point made.
cdifoto
04-05-2008, 11:12 PM
There are times when it's the right equipment, and there are times when it's out of place. I'm not always a photographer.
DonSchap
04-05-2008, 11:24 PM
Don ... we addressed this with "camera-phones" ... a sad testiment to photography, to be sure. And no, I don't carry condoms in my camera bag, either. :rolleyes:
cdifoto
04-05-2008, 11:58 PM
A "pee shooter" is quite a few steps above a camera phone. You may have an adequacy complex, but I don't.
downtrodden
04-06-2008, 12:03 AM
Personally, i never leave home without my dSLR- but i have my S5 in the bag still, just because 1. i don't have a macro lens yet, so if i see a cool bug, i break out the raynox.. and 2. if i need video. As soon as i get a macro lens there will be no room in my bag for the S5 anymore and it will be sold.
BUT, i have the luxury of not having a kid, so i use my bag like a messengber bag and just reach in for the camera whenever need be. i don't have to carry a kid, so weight is no concern... i imagine i'll want something pocketable in a few years when i have a kid that tires of walking..
cdifoto
04-06-2008, 12:13 AM
I don't have a kid either. I just don't always want a camera or bag around my neck. I'd rather just slip a P&S in my pocket and go. It's something to have for the incidentals, not a replacement for the dSLR. For an intended photo-op, of course I'll take the better stuff.
I am in total agreement that it's better to have any camera in your pocket than no camera at all. Good photogrpaher's will tend to have decent pocket cams. And once again, for me at least, it comes down to intent (not fake intent like some people here tried to use as a hollow argument). For instance there's no reason on earth you need a DSLR to scout locations. None. There's no reason on earth, unless you're a social dweeb, to bring a DSLR out with friends to dinner or a club...unless you asked to document the event or your purpose is to shoot the establishment or somehow it's a paid gig...or you're out with a bunch of camera geeks (Cory and Gaby excluded :)). And there are times when you just want to slip a pocket cam in your pocket because, hey, you never know. If, as a knowledgeable and skilled photographer, you PURPOSELY choose the tool (in this case a pocket cam) to do a specific job, then you have nothing to do with my original question or thread. To me that would be no different than choosing a specific f/stop for a specific purpose. This thread is about those who don't have a clue what they're doing or why. ;)
It's not about approach. It's about whether you even know to have an approach.
DonSchap
04-06-2008, 12:59 PM
We all have our burden to bear ... even if it be a DSLR. LOL :D
Half the fun of having the darn thing is springing it out and shooting outrageously good shots, in spite of the location. The "knowing" of how to do that is also quite an advantage, also.
Who knew?
Show me a sign ...
34756
Yeah, that'll do. Nice work!
So, you're touring through this awesome RV you've been considering ... and just want an image or two to show the friends ... not really interested in taking it with your "dwarf camera" or "pee-shooter", because it truly deserves a wide angle shot.
34761
exif: 10mm @ f/5.6 - 1/60 sec - ISO-1600 - Manual - Ext. Flash
Saying, of course, "I need to sleep on it."
34762
exif: 10mm @ f/5.6 - 1/60 sec - ISO-1600 - Manual - Ext. Flash
Give me that DSLR! :D This isn't getting away from it all ... this is just taking it all with you! Vacationing never looked so luxurious, eh? :D
Phill D
04-08-2008, 12:10 AM
Yep it was entertaining JTL. It's not fizzled out yet either. I bet you didn't think it would generate so many posts so quickly. Shame about the prize though :D
great_guns
04-08-2008, 05:12 AM
It hasn't found my dog's face yet, but it did pick up 2 spots on my carpet that I didn't even know were there.
I read a book in school called "World Famous Ghosts". Maybe you should pick that up. It might make it worth calling an estate agent.
great_guns
04-08-2008, 05:32 AM
I truly believe there might be a better way to teach Photography to the masses ... but (which means just forget everything I said up until the word "but"), I'll be darned if I can say what that might be.
But (there it is, again!), I do believe. :D
I've been going over some photographic odds and ends, over in the SONY DSLR forum, with the "Sparkster." Which also makes one ask, if I have bag full of odds and ends ... and I give all but one away ... what am I left with, an "odd" or an "end"? Anyway ... forget that ... that fact is, there's really a lot to this stuff. No overnight explanation will even get you close. Work and practice ... that's the key.
And if I practice just enough, maybe ... just maybe, this will work! :rolleyes:
I wrote a simple four-page MS-Word document explaining the basics of aperture, shutter-speed, exposure compensation, when to use flash etc. and distributed amongst the people here in office who like photography. Some own P&Ss and few own DSLRs. I'm not an expert, nobody is but I don't see any harm in sharing what we know with others who WANT to know.
I am hence grateful to forums and people like you all on these forums where I've learnt a lot more that I could have reading photography manuals or magazines.
I realise if you hand a real enthusiast a sheet which covers basics of the controls that most cameras use, he would use it to experiment and create his own understanding and more importantly, his own perspective of things. Hand it to a mug and that's precisely what he'll get - mugshots!
great_guns
04-08-2008, 07:16 AM
Of course you are right, Don. It's all about knowledge and the willingness/desire to learn.
But I do agree with CDI as well...You can tell by the initial question when someone is going to be dismissive about advice versus someone truly and honestly interested in acquiring knowledge and who is on the path to true enlightenment...:D
I recently had someone who wanted me to tell them that they made a good decision. Them: "So, did I get the right thing?" Me: "Why do you ask?" Them: "Because you know about this stuff". Me: "Well if you believe that then why didn't you ask me BEFORE you made the decision?" Them: "Well, just tell what do you think." Me: "What do I think? I think you should have asked me first". But that's not what they wanted to hear. They wanted to hear "Sure you made the right decision, you're a damn bloody genius!" They really didn't want my opinion, they just wanted unwarranted validation. Well, they weren't happy about the conversation. I say tough. If you don't want an honest opinion DON'T ASK! So, does that make me a better or worse person? ;)
Err...I'm sure there are people here who would be able to give you a number for a "Communicate Effectively" course.:p Don't lose heart...yet.
FLiPMaRC
04-14-2008, 09:39 AM
This one's for JTL :p :D http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38480
This one's for JTL :p :D http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38480
There is a certain deep and ironic humor in this that you obviously see as well. :D;):D
Franklin
04-15-2008, 12:20 AM
As a teen I loved to take pictures, with a P&S
12 years ago I borrowed my father in law's EOS for a vacation trip. i do not know the type, nor do I remember the lens (my guess looking at the old piccies is a zoom between 24-100 on a fullframe).
I mostly used it on auto and did a few timed release and bulb shots. My keeper rate was extremely high and the colors, sharpness etc blew me away! I knew it, I wanted an SLR!
No money though^^, so 8 years ago I bought an old Ricoh SLR, with a 50 mm 2.0 prime, but without AF. My keeper rate dropped quite a bit, but some of the best pictures I made came from that rickety thing.
Fast forward to two years ago. Very nice job, house being paid off, money ceased to be a hurdle all of a sudden (A very strange moment in my life tbh). Rubbing my hands in glee, I bought a 30D, a kit lens and a 70-200 F4L.
I dived into the internet, trying to make sense of all the numbers (F stop, aperture?). I knew that shooting auto was no-no, so I took the plunge. I remapped focus to a seprate button (learn it the right way^^).
Keeper rate was disapointing.... I made very good ones, but also heaps of blurry, oof shots. I didn't despair, but must say I was feeling a fool with my expensive new toy. It got a lot better, though I still have times i struggle with light, where one part of the image is too dark or to light.
At this moment I feel comfortable to say I am worth my DSLR, and yet there are still things I learn, things that I find hard, or have trouble understanding.
Thing I learned today: Apperture diffraction if you have an F over 12. I never knew.
Things I still don't really understand:
When do I uses spot metering, or an other metering? I understand the theory when to use what, but the results are sometimes contrary to my expectation.
Thing I find hard to do: Hyperfocal focussing.
But at least my framing gets better and better and my "feel" for the right shot went back to my old levels and is now surpassing it.
TBH, it is a much to expensive toy (especially if you "treat" yourself on a lens now and then)... but boy do I have fun with it :D
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